Castlefield corridor stupidity

Camden · 21 Dec 2019

Llama said:
There is no travel arrangement with Metrolink or local buses (which would be too unreliable anyway) and Network Rail wouldn't permit crew changes at Deansgate in the same way the don't permit it at Piccadilly - any crew displaced and unable to relieve their inbound train at the right time would have huge knock-on effects. At Oxford Rd there is some built-in contingency by way of multiple platforms.

The issue with being booked to walk (and there are still agreed official walking routes) rather than choosing to walk is safety - I wouldn't walk across town in uniform between say 8pm and 2am as readily as I would in the mornings. Also, guards with their takings - cash regs? Guards have the same issues as drivers re crew relief.

Given the amount of money spent on taxis and the cost of delays, it's bizarre the company don't have a couple of people carriers or mini-buses with drivers in key changeover locations, as a core part of their operations.

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Llama · 21 Dec 2019

As I said, we used to have exactly that, in fact we had two - one based at Piccadilly and one based at Victoria. There were a small team of drivers employed and it was a job that was sometimes done temporarily by train drivers on 'other duties' say for medical issues. These 'staff cars' ran to a timetable which was published for traincrew so if you missed one staff car from A to B you knew when the next one was. A few taxis were still needed but only a tiny fraction of those needed now that the staff cars have been abolished.

One issue (of many) we have with taxis is that they will not allow anyone other than booked traincrew into the taxi. We might turn up late at a depot after bringing units on, get to the car park to find the booked taxi has gone and there might be another taxi or two waiting for other traincrew going to exactly the same place, but they refuse to take us so we have to contact our traincrew signing on point to arrange for another taxi to be sent - usually takes about 15-20 minutes for that taxi to then turn up, longer at weekends obviously. This means maybe 50% of the phone calls to/from our signing on point, who are basically our coordinators, are to do with taxis - the SOP has far more important things to do.

The Planner · 21 Dec 2019

john prytherch said:
Or reopening the CLC Wigan line from Glazebrook West Junction to a point near where it crossed over the Chat Moss line (near Kenyon Junction), with a connection onto the latter near there.

John Prytherch.

Again though, how do you get out of Trafford Park to get to Glazebrook?

Grumpy Git · 21 Dec 2019

Llama said:
As I said, we used to have exactly that, in fact we had two - one based at Piccadilly and one based at Victoria. There were a small team of drivers employed and it was a job that was sometimes done temporarily by train drivers on 'other duties' say for medical issues. These 'staff cars' ran to a timetable which was published for traincrew so if you missed one staff car from A to B you knew when the next one was. A few taxis were still needed but only a tiny fraction of those needed now that the staff cars have been abolished.

One issue (of many) we have with taxis is that they will not allow anyone other than booked traincrew into the taxi. We might turn up late at a depot after bringing units on, get to the car park to find the booked taxi has gone and there might be another taxi or two waiting for other traincrew going to exactly the same place, but they refuse to take us so we have to contact our traincrew signing on point to arrange for another taxi to be sent - usually takes about 15-20 minutes for that taxi to then turn up, longer at weekends obviously. This means maybe 50% of the phone calls to/from our signing on point, who are basically our coordinators, are to do with taxis - the SOP has far more important things to do.

Bonkers, but some suit got to tick a box when the minibuses were binned.

Bletchleyite · 21 Dec 2019

Bevan Price said:
Would it not be preferable, for example, for Liverpool crews to be able to work all the way to Crewe via Manchester Airport**, Wigan crews to work to the Airport or Wilmslow/ Alderley Edge, and Blackpool crews to go to Hazel Grove, etc.?
** Plus some Manchester crews might work Manchester /Crewe/Liverpool/Crewe/Manchester diagrams, avoiding the need for any crew changes at Oxford Road or Platforms 13/14 at Piccadilly.

Yes. If you can remove the change entirely (assuming it isn't too far to drive in one go) that would near enough remove the issue.

156420 · 21 Dec 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Yes. If you can remove the change entirely (assuming it isn't too far to drive in one go) that would near enough remove the issue.

Completely agree of some of the Cross-Manchester services. Only 2 sets of traincrew sign the full route!

The Blackpool North-Hazel Grove services for example only Manchester Victoria & Buxton sign the full route. Manchester Piccadilly drivers sign as far as Preston.

The Southport-Alderley Edge and Liverpool-Crewe usually require a full crew change at Oxford Road. As neither crew sign the other half of the route (Liverpool, Wigan and Manchester Vic can go to the Airport).

Buxton guards actually sign Wigan Wallgate-Alderley Edge so they could work throughout, don’t think the drivers sign Wallgate though!

In terms of relief it would make much more sense for relief on the Liverpool-Crewe services to happen at Manchester Airport but you would lose any productivity as the departure back to Liverpool is too close there wouldn’t be time so they’d end up sitting at the Airport for an hour, like most do at Oxford Road anyway.

Unfortunately most of the dockets invite delays when there is disruption.

There’s a Lime St driver one which is:

Lime St-Oxford Road (via Chat Moss)
Oxford Road-Lime St (via CLC)
Lime St-Oxford Road (via Chat Moss)
PNB
Oxford Road-Lime St (via CLC)
Lime St-Oxford Road (via CLC)
Pass back.

It’s asking for trouble!

Bletchleyite · 21 Dec 2019

156420 said:
In terms of relief it would make much more sense for relief on the Liverpool-Crewe services to happen at Manchester Airport but you would lose any productivity as the departure back to Liverpool is too close there wouldn’t be time so they’d end up sitting at the Airport for an hour, like most do at Oxford Road anyway.

Though it isn't about gaining productivity, it's about it not blocking critical parts of the network. And that hour is a layover if they are late on the way in.

Tomnick · 21 Dec 2019

Merle Haggard said:
Something for those 'delayed' by an 100 slu box train through Castlefield to think about.
I spent most of my railway career with freight.
Latterly, most of 'our' trains were Class 4. They generally went origin - destination without booked stops.
They were routed slow line on the West Coast.
On the slow line there were also slow passenger trains that stopped every few miles (e.g. Euston - Bletchley or Traff. Pk. - Picc.). Theses were Class 2.
In the railway operating brain, class 2 is much more important than class 4.
Late running Class 2s would be given priority over R/T Cl 4s. Class 4s were booked to follow all stations trains.
As a result, 75MPH Class 4s averaged about 30MPH overall.
Our customers were prepared to pay a premium price for fast reliable transits as part of their production line or distribution network - the 'just in time' principle - but their patience was worn threadbare by the levels of delay.
I know what revenue freight trains earned and I can say with some certainty that that income is likely to be considerably larger than any Northern Rail train, even if all the passengers on it have actually paid...
Of course, in BR days the surplus generated by the freight business helped to subsidise the loss making passenger ones, but this does not now apply.

My preference was always to keep class 4 freights running - even with a 90mph class 1 minutes behind it, if the passenger had one or two stops, the freight would be well out of the way.

In a congested area like Manchester, it’s even more important to keep them moving once they’re in the parish - there’s not many places to stand a train of that length without it very quickly becoming a problem!

jfollows · 21 Dec 2019

My 1977 working timetable shows the following train:

4D59 Freightliner to Holyhead 32 SLU "Special timings"
Trafford Park FLT d. 17.25
Trafford Park East Junction 17/27½
Hyde Road Junction 17/48
Gorton 17x52
GL
Ashburys 17/55
Philips Park No 2 18/01
and presumably then through Manchester Victoria at the end of the rush hour, but avoiding Deansgate, Oxford Road and Piccadilly.

Not possible any more!

john prytherch · 21 Dec 2019

To restore connectivity between Trafford Park and Glazebrook, restore the west end connection which joined the CLC main line not too far from Trafford Park station. I travelled it once on a Sunday in the 1970s - due to engineering works we left Manchester through United Football Ground platform.

John Prytherch.

The Planner · 21 Dec 2019

All pretty moot anyway, to pay for it whatever capacity it created on the Castlefield corridor would have to be filled with something else.

furnessvale · 21 Dec 2019

The Planner said:
Again though, how do you get out of Trafford Park to get to Glazebrook?

Compared to the cost of establishing a link to the WCML using any of the possibilities, of which there are at least four, the cost of building a west facing connection at Trafford Park would be chickenfeed.

Bletchleyite · 21 Dec 2019

The Planner said:
All pretty moot anyway, to pay for it whatever capacity it created on the Castlefield corridor would have to be filled with something else.

Which means the problem will never be solved. We need to build infrastructure with slack in it.

tbtc · 21 Dec 2019

Sweetjesus said:
According to Realtime Trains website, it appears most of freights that go through Manchester Oxford road are headed to either Crewe, Soton or Felixstowe.

Couldn't they travel in the opposite direction to WCML instead of going through the busy corridor?

Sounds good in theory (if there's money to pay for a connection) but the WCML north of Crewe is already crowded, hence the lack of space for additional passenger services (which would take pressure off the long distance Scottish services)

Llama said:
As I said, we used to have exactly that, in fact we had two - one based at Piccadilly and one based at Victoria. There were a small team of drivers employed and it was a job that was sometimes done temporarily by train drivers on 'other duties' say for medical issues. These 'staff cars' ran to a timetable which was published for traincrew so if you missed one staff car from A to B you knew when the next one was. A few taxis were still needed but only a tiny fraction of those needed now that the staff cars have been abolished

If the Northern route map was simpler then we could focus on "Pic" routes and "Vic" routes - which would make diagrams a lot simpler - e.g. if all services from Southport go to one big Manchester station/ all services through Chorley go to one big Manchester station/ a simpler range of destinations from Manchester Airport/ all services from the Calder Valley that run beyond Manchester running to the same corridor on the other side of Manchester etc.

But the random collection of through services (every hour) and the combination of Pic/Vic routes seem a receipt for disaster, given that there's very little resilience when something goes wrong.

Relying on staff battling their way across Manchester city centre (assuring that their inbound service was on time0 and then picking up a duty at Oxford Road is just asking for trouble though.

The Planner · 21 Dec 2019

furnessvale said:
Compared to the cost of establishing a link to the WCML using any of the possibilities, of which there are at least four, the cost of building a west facing connection at Trafford Park would be chickenfeed.

It probably would, but you end up having to deal with Crewe to Weaver as well as any connection to the WCML.

Bletchleyite said:
Which means the problem will never be solved. We need to build infrastructure with slack in it.

Don't disagree, but there are lots and lots of schemes which would improve reliability and performance but don't save journey time or allow extra capacity. That is the killer. Maybe Williams considers that, I don't know.

Andyh82 · 21 Dec 2019

Camden said:
Given the amount of money spent on taxis and the cost of delays, it's bizarre the company don't have a couple of people carriers or mini-buses with drivers in key changeover locations, as a core part of their operations.

Which is of course what bus companies do, when reliefs take place in remote locations. In fact in Manchester you regularly see Stagecoach staff cars doing changeovers near Deansgate.

The drivers will drive the staff cars themselves though as part of their duty, I’m not sure that’d be acceptable in the railway industry?

Tomnick · 21 Dec 2019

Andyh82 said:
Which is of course what bus companies do, when reliefs take place in remote locations. In fact in Manchester you regularly see Stagecoach staff cars doing changeovers near Deansgate.

The drivers will drive the staff cars themselves though as part of their duty, I’m not sure that’d be acceptable in the railway industry?

Freight drivers do, quite regularly. We used to have a three-way swap in the early hours of the morning involving two trains and a van. I doubt it’d be practical for this sort of work though, where it’s much less likely that the person that you’re relieving will be the next user of the vehicle.

ElectroSoldier · 22 Dec 2019

What I mean is if you take away out of timetable running due to problems the so called Castlefield corridor doesnt actually have any problems due to capacity.

talltim · 22 Dec 2019

tbtc said:
Sounds good in theory (if there's money to pay for a connection) but the WCML north of Crewe is already crowded, hence the lack of space for additional passenger services (which would take pressure off the long distance Scottish services)

If the Northern route map was simpler then we could focus on "Pic" routes and "Vic" routes - which would make diagrams a lot simpler - e.g. if all services from Southport go to one big Manchester station/ all services through Chorley go to one big Manchester station/ a simpler range of destinations from Manchester Airport/ all services from the Calder Valley that run beyond Manchester running to the same corridor on the other side of Manchester etc.

But the random collection of through services (every hour) and the combination of Pic/Vic routes seem a receipt for disaster, given that there's very little resilience when something goes wrong.

Relying on staff battling their way across Manchester city centre (assuring that their inbound service was on time0 and then picking up a duty at Oxford Road is just asking for trouble though.

I don’t get why train crew are moving from station to station in Manchester on shift. Surely, if they don’t sign the whole of a cross Manchester route, then they would be better crewing they next train back from the station they got off at?

yorkie · 22 Dec 2019

Just a gentle reminder that if anyone wishes to post any suggestions for changes to services or infrastructure, these must be posted in the Speculative Ideas section please.

There is now a dedicated thread for ideas for Castlefield corridor solutions: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/castlefield-corridor-potential-solutions.197125/

Thanks

jamesst · 22 Dec 2019

Andyh82 said:
Which is of course what bus companies do, when reliefs take place in remote locations. In fact in Manchester you regularly see Stagecoach staff cars doing changeovers near Deansgate.

The drivers will drive the staff cars themselves though as part of their duty, I’m not sure that’d be acceptable in the railway industry?

The problem is all bus drivers by definition can drive! The amount of train drivers at my toc alone that cant drive cars continually amazes me

Grumpy Git · 22 Dec 2019

jamesst said:
The problem is all bus drivers by definition can drive! The amount of train drivers at my toc alone that cant drive cars continually amazes me

Might be advantageous to say you don't have a licence?

furnessvale · 22 Dec 2019

Grumpy Git said:
Might be advantageous to say you don't have a licence?

There are many jobs in this country where you are required to have a licence. No licence, you don't get the job in the first place!

Grumpy Git · 22 Dec 2019

furnessvale said:
There are many jobs in this country where you are required to have a licence. No licence, you don't get the job in the first place!

But not to drive a Northern train it would seem?

tbtc · 22 Dec 2019

talltim said:
I don’t get why train crew are moving from station to station in Manchester on shift. Surely, if they don’t sign the whole of a cross Manchester route, then they would be better crewing they next train back from the station they got off at?

I don't claim any special knowledge of the Northern diagrams, but it may be because we have a situation where some Southport services run to Pic and some to Vic... some Blackpool services run to Pic and some to Vic... there's this complicated timetable crammed full of hourly services...there are some services that are presumably too long for staff to work the full return journey (Liverpool - Piccadilly - Airport - Crewe)... so staff presumably end up rostered into piecemeal diagrams, doing a bit here and a bit there (but not sticking with the one unit)... so the minute something goes wrong, there are several services affected - not just the congestion of squeezing so many services through Castlefield with such an unbalanced timetable but these seem to impact upon seemingly separate services through Victoria (since the staff for the Victoria service are delayed arriving at Oxford Road etc)

Rip it up and start again!

I can see why some things look attractive on paper - the idea of two trains per hour from Stockport through Oxford Road to Bolton sounds appealing - but when they run within six minutes of each other, it's not much use. I can see why cross-Manchester links look beneficial (to the kind of people who want long distance connectivity etc) but it just makes things less reliable on both sides of the city - it isn't working though (and the only "solution" that people seem to want is a couple of additional platforms at Piccadilly so that we can squeeze even more short trains through that corridor (e.g. the "promised" Bradford to Manchester Airport), rather than thinning out the timetable.

JonathanH · 22 Dec 2019

tbtc said:
I can see why some things look attractive on paper - the idea of two trains per hour from Stockport through Oxford Road to Bolton sounds appealing

Running them through this corridor is just about getting them to a place where they can terminate - Hazel Grove, Stockport, the Airport, Crewe, Alderley Edge. The lack of platform space for services from North and West of Manchester to terminate is why so many trains have to run through the Castlefield Corridor and similarly Victoria. If you take all of these services from the North and West (4 off the CLC, 6 off Chat Moss, 2 from the Atherton Line, 8 from Bolton), before the Middlesbrough and Newcastle TPE services are considered, where are they going to terminate?

Ianno87 · 22 Dec 2019

JonathanH said:
Running them through this corridor is just about getting them to a place where they can terminate - Hazel Grove, Stockport, the Airport, Crewe, Alderley Edge. The lack of platform space for services from North and West of Manchester to terminate is why so many trains have to run through the Castlefield Corridor and similarly Victoria. If you take all of these services from the North and West (4 off the CLC, 6 off Chat Moss, 2 from the Atherton Line, 8 from Bolton), before the Middlesbrough and Newcastle TPE services are considered, where are they going to terminate?

It's difficult, because Bolton-Stockport *is* a reasonable flow (and helps keep passenger flows on 13/14 down by offering Bolton-Birmingham/London connections at Stockport). But the uneven service is the inevitable consequence of having various other 1tph services running from everywhere to everywhere

Bevan Price · 22 Dec 2019

john prytherch said:
Or reopening the CLC Wigan line from Glazebrook West Junction to a point near where it crossed over the Chat Moss line (near Kenyon Junction), with a connection onto the latter near there.

John Prytherch.

Not sure if that would help much. It would reduce the traffic levels at Ordsall Lane Jn, but you would still have the same number of trains passing through Deansgate station and Castlefield Jn.
Plus, I think later phases of HS2 want to take over parts of the Wigan Central line trackbed.

(A minor historical correction - the Wigan Central & St. Helens Central branches were GCR/LNER only from Glazebrook; the other partners in CLC (GNR, MR) did not wish to be involved in those branch lines.)

furnessvale · 22 Dec 2019

Bevan Price said:
Not sure if that would help much. It would reduce the traffic levels at Ordsall Lane Jn, but you would still have the same number of trains passing through Deansgate station and Castlefield Jn.
Plus, I think later phases of HS2 want to take over parts of the Wigan Central line trackbed.

(A minor historical correction - the Wigan Central & St. Helens Central branches were GCR/LNER only from Glazebrook; the other partners in CLC (GNR, MR) did not wish to be involved in those branch lines.)

The point of that particulat suggestion would be to send freight from Trafford Park away from Castlefield to join the WCML at Winwick. It would not (primarily) be to divert any existing passenger flows. The potential problems of putting the freight on a short section of the Chat Moss line AND of capacity issues on the WCML in that area have already been mentioned.

ic31420 · 22 Dec 2019

jamesst said:
The problem is all bus drivers by definition can drive! The amount of train drivers at my toc alone that cant drive cars continually amazes me

I believe that the number of people under 25 who don't drive is rising year on year. Many young urban dwellers don't see it as important.

As a 38yr old suburbanite I drive very little these days. Less than 3k miles last year and 1k of that was a holiday jaunt. Last year my car insurance ran out in December and I didn't bother renewing it until April.

I've decided against applying for tfgm/NR/ northern jobs due to a 20min drive away from home requirement.

To get back on topic there is a clear need for Northern to simplify it's operation full stop. Top Down route and branch (see what I did).

From train crew rostering to routing, service frequency. Journey complexity and rolling stock utilisation. It needs a sort of anti may 2018 change and or a back to the late 90s system/routes and schedules.

As a suburban user 3tph (every 20mins) or a 2tph (every 30mins)# doesn't really matter if I can get my bum on a seat. So let's go with longer 2tph, less drivers and crew, less network congestion and more efficient use of staff resources.

#especially if the more frequent service is delayed and takes longer than waiting for an on time 2tph service due to delays.

Castlefield corridor stupidity

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