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Should Gov be sued over PRM failure?

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Starmill

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The idea is that it makes refusal or lack of inclination to make such services accessible for disabled people an expensive mistake.
I agree that many large organisations fail either to take their responsibilities under the Equality Act seriously enough, or that they decide not to allocate sufficient resources to compliance.

Whether this time is one of those times or not I don't feel qualified to say.
 
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Starmill

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ROSCOs yes.
It's difficult to see what the owners of the trains have done that might be unlawful. Failed to pay money to modify them? Certainly, and that's pretty poor of them, but that's not unlawful. The ROSCO doesn't care if the trains are being used or not, so long as their leases are paid.
 

Starmill

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If this sort of threat is the best solution that the railway can come up with, after 10 years notice of the deadline, then why not go for it. I'm sure it will win friends in Westminster and Whitehall.
I agree that there really must be a 'hard edge' with these new rules. Compliance otherwise will never be achieved.
 

HSTEd

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What incentive did ROSCOs have to make stock compliant?

Everyone knew the Government was always going to capitulate.
 

ainsworth74

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What incentive did ROSCOs have to make stock compliant?

Everyone knew the Government was always going to capitulate.

And yet in cases where they knew their stock had a future it has been modified or is in the process of being modified. Are there any cases of stock which does not currently have either a planned replacement or a plan to modify it for compliance? I can't think of any off hand but I'm open to ideas!
 

Starmill

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And yet in cases where they knew their stock had a future it has been modified or is in the process of being modified. Are there any cases of stock which does not currently have either a planned replacement or a plan to modify it for compliance? I can't think of any off hand but I'm open to ideas!
Hm I wonder if some London Underground trains fall into that category? Not that those are a ROSCO matter.
 

HSTEd

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And yet in cases where they knew their stock had a future it has been modified or is in the process of being modified. Are there any cases of stock which does not currently have either a planned replacement or a plan to modify it for compliance? I can't think of any off hand but I'm open to ideas!
A plan with insufficient resources committed to it is not really the same.
If the ROSCOs actually believed they would be preventing from leasing noncompliant stock after the deadline because no TOC would want to lease it from them - do you think we'd be in this situation?
 

ainsworth74

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Hm I wonder if some London Underground trains fall into that category? Not that those are a ROSCO matter.
Possibly but then LU has always been it's own little world!

A plan with insufficient resources committed to it is not really the same.
If the ROSCOs actually believed they would be preventing from leasing noncompliant stock after the deadline because no TOC would want to lease it from them - do you think we'd be in this situation?

No of course not. They gambled and gambled correctly that any non-compliant stock would be given a derogation to keep it going in the interim period. But I don't think that that changes the fact that where they knew the stock would have a future they've ensured it's compliant. Which is somewhat different to the suggestion I got from your post that they've ignored the deadline full stop. I don't think the evidence would sustain such a view.
 

Greybeard33

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I believe the legislation requires the SoS to consult the Disability Advisory Committee before granting a dispensation. If he were to disregard the committee's advice, might there be a case for Judicial Review?
 

Bayum

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It's difficult to see what the owners of the trains have done that might be unlawful. Failed to pay money to modify them? Certainly, and that's pretty poor of them, but that's not unlawful. The ROSCO doesn't care if the trains are being used or not, so long as their leases are paid.
They didn’t do enough to make trains compliant. Simple as.
 

Ianno87

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What incentive did ROSCOs have to make stock compliant?

Everyone knew the Government was always going to capitulate.

Surely no responsibility lies with the ROSCO, as they don't operate the train...
 

yorksrob

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However hard the 'edge' of the legislation, you can't expect ROSCO's to undertake millions of pounds of work on carriages that they expect will be out of use before those alterations pay back. This was always going to be a cliff edge, and it was always going to be Governments fault.

The initial legislation should have been restricted to new build stock, with a set of PRM lite modifications for older stock likely to be in use for longer.
 

Starmill

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They didn’t do enough to make trains compliant. Simple as.
But in what way might that be unlawful? This thread is about legal action so there would have to be some kind of actual basis in law for this to be wrong beyond it being an example of poor practice.
 

JamesT

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However hard the 'edge' of the legislation, you can't expect ROSCO's to undertake millions of pounds of work on carriages that they expect will be out of use before those alterations pay back. This was always going to be a cliff edge, and it was always going to be Governments fault.

The initial legislation should have been restricted to new build stock, with a set of PRM lite modifications for older stock likely to be in use for longer.

It essentially was, wasn’t it? All new build stock has been compliant since 1998. Older stock has had this longer period to comply.
Is there actually any scope for ‘PRM-lite’? Isn’t PRM-TSI the minimum needed to make rail vehicles accessible?
 

Starmill

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The initial legislation should have been restricted to new build stock, with a set of PRM lite modifications for older stock likely to be in use for longer.
Older rolling stock is already allowed more leeway than trains designed today in the way the standards are applied.
 

Starmill

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Is there actually any scope for ‘PRM-lite’? Isn’t PRM-TSI the minimum needed to make rail vehicles accessible?
The standard has already been watered down slightly too. Setting the 2020 deadline took some bargaining from disability organisations.
 

Starmill

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Not enough to prevent a cliff edge of rolling stock withdrawal.
But enough to mean that some disabled people will still find the rolling stock difficult to access. Examples include door buttons which haven't been moved or internal doors which still cannot be used by everyone because they're simply too heavy.

So does this halfway done approach actually bring any benefits?
 

Mojo

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Hm I wonder if some London Underground trains fall into that category? Not that those are a ROSCO matter.
Possibly but then LU has always been it's own little world!
London Underground isn’t required to comply with PRM-TSI (the subject of this thread) as it is not an Interoperable rail system.

There is however a requirement with the Rail Vehicle Accessibility Regulations by the same date to which many exemptions have already been approved and others (for the Central/W&C, Bakerloo and Piccadilly, and a Network-wide exemption on door chimes minimum time) currently being processed.
 

Llanigraham

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But enough to mean that some disabled people will still find the rolling stock difficult to access. Examples include door buttons which haven't been moved or internal doors which still cannot be used by everyone because they're simply too heavy.

So does this halfway done approach actually bring any benefits?

So what do you suggest is done, since as far as I can see the only answer would be to take all these non-compliant units out of use now?
 

yorksrob

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But enough to mean that some disabled people will still find the rolling stock difficult to access. Examples include door buttons which haven't been moved or internal doors which still cannot be used by everyone because they're simply too heavy.

So does this halfway done approach actually bring any benefits?

Yes, because it means a lot more people can find a seat/get on the train.

The default isn't that persons of reduced mobility are prevented from accessing the train, it's that they require assistance to access the train.

Whereas if the train is short formed, persons of reduced mobility may actually be denied access due to overcrowding.
 

Starmill

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Yes, because it means a lot more people can find a seat/get on the train.

The default isn't that persons of reduced mobility are prevented from accessing the train, it's that they require assistance to access the train.

Whereas if the train is short formed, persons of reduced mobility may actually be denied access due to overcrowding.
Conversely, a widespread expectation of derogation is a contributing factor to the inaction that plagued the industry for years.
 

HSTEd

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However hard the 'edge' of the legislation, you can't expect ROSCO's to undertake millions of pounds of work on carriages that they expect will be out of use before those alterations pay back. This was always going to be a cliff edge, and it was always going to be Governments fault.
The whole point of privatisation is that the private sector can take riskd and such.

And now the ROSCOs are whining because they demand not to have to take anu risks at all.

If they don't want to take risks, they should just accept that those trains will go out of use.
That's their problem, not the taxpayers or the farepayers
 

Starmill

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They own the train.
So surely they should be responsible for ensuring it's compliance
The operators of the trains are responsible for leasing compliant ones. It's open to a rolling stock company to offer whatever they want. The coaches could be leased for private static use, for some reason, and that would not come with the requirement to follow RVAR or the relevant TSI.
 

thedbdiboy

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The whole point of privatisation is that the private sector can take riskd and such.

And now the ROSCOs are whining because they demand not to have to take anu risks at all.

If they don't want to take risks, they should just accept that those trains will go out of use.
That's their problem, not the taxpayers or the farepayers

But we don't have privatisation. We have contracting of train services by the DfT. If they had properly specified the need for PRM compliance in those contracts, they would have had to pay the additional funding, so they prevaricated. They were warned by ROSCOs, TOCs and industry experts but failed to take any action until the last minute, using inevitably the excuse that it is somehow the industry's fault.
 

yorksrob

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Conversely, a widespread expectation of derogation is a contributing factor to the inaction that plagued the industry for years.

To a point. But I would say that the general unwillingness of Government to invest in rolling stock to cover increases in demand over the last twenty years has been a much bigger problem. Had this been kept on top of, it would be far less of a job to replace out of date stock now.

Since that hasn't been done, is such an action now likely to improve the lot of passengers or damage it? I suggest the latter.

The whole point of privatisation is that the private sector can take riskd and such.

And now the ROSCOs are whining because they demand not to have to take anu risks at all.

If they don't want to take risks, they should just accept that those trains will go out of use.
That's their problem, not the taxpayers or the farepayers

Yes, there's an element of truth to that. If privatisation was working, the trains should have been replaced over time anyway.

But whatof the Pacers ? They exist on a privatised railway, yet the Government somehow calculated that there was no 'business case' to replace them, even though they were life expired. A system that can't replace life expired stock isn't working (fair play to Patrick McLoughlin for putting his foot down and insisting they were replaced, in spite of the so called 'business case").
 

modernrail

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Is there any stock still in use that is not capable of meeting the standard with alterations that have already been made, with the exception of Pacers? If not, it is hard to see particuarly valid excuses. If there is such stock the Government should have sat down and agreed a plan with disability groups. EMR seems the obvious example.

These sorts of deadlines are always missed by a bit, so I think 6 months, maybe even 12 can be lived with. I am just not clear if that is what we are talking about?

The legal position is perhaps quite unique. The legislator is also the contractual employer of the defaulting parties.

I wonder whether there might be potential Judicial Review claims for the dispensation. We haven't seen the form of dispensation but any JR could be against the fact of issuing one or more likely any unreasonable elements - such as it not being appropriately time limited or not requiring some sort of reporting on progress.

Perhaps there is also a claim under this and other legislation that the Government has failed to comply with its obligations as the contractual commissioner of services used by persons with reduced mobility.

Personally, I would not support a JR on the issuing of a dispensation per se but would on it not being drafted tightly enough. I would like to see the contractual claim as it might help the DfT to realise it needs to raise its game substantially on franchise management in general. Passengers up north in particular are being hung out to dry and this is just one example of extremely sloppy work by all concerned.
 

talltim

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I think there's plenty of blame to go around here (but I don't think any of it actually gives rise to legal action). Ironically I actually think that in many respects that the TOCs are relatively blameless in this mess. I think it's notable, for instance, that the TOCs which knew they would be operating beyond the January 1 2020 deadline have either got their fleets sorted or have taken steps to sort it (which have then fallen apart due to delays but at least there was a plan!). Whilst the TOCs which were not in that position it is those that have taken over close to the deadline who are the ones where there are now issues (I'm thinking specifically of EMT into EMR). And I think that in many respects is to be expected! Why would TOC A who knows that their franchise expires at say the end of 2018 take steps to ensure that their fleet is compliant? I'm sure they wouldn't get in the way of work being done but they wouldn't want to pay for it themselves when they won't see the benefit.

So that then brings us to the ROSCOs and, again, in many cases they've taken steps to make their fleets compliant where there was a guaranteed future use. For instance the owner of XCs fleet of Mk3s has taken steps to ensure that they're compliant with the requirements of the PRM-TSI because they know that that fleet as some sort of future out to probably at least the mid-2020s. Meanwhile EMR's fleet of HSTs are non-compliant but then their future was very uncertain until the franchise award was finally made in April 2019 which leaves it a bit late in the day!

But then the it's hard for the ROSCOs to make plans and know which stock to make complaint when their customers move to the beat of the DfT! The DfT are, of course, the authority that is responsible for franchising and therefore has the sign off on the various plans put forward by TOCs in line with their legal requirements and franchise specifications. It is also the DfT that have thrown the franchising schedule into chaos since 2012 with franchise after franchise being delayed again and again. It is also the DfT that moved from long term franchises (up to twenty plus years in some cases like Chiltern) to short seven year franchises where by default there is much less long term thinking (by no means do I mean that there is no long term thinking but certainly there's much less of an incentive particularly where there is equally no guarantee of a reward should you be doing an excellent job). So the DfT have delayed a great many franchises (with at best short one or two year extensions) and the DfT have developed a system where the awards themselves when they are made are often relatively short.

So, to my mind, there's plenty of blame to throw around and it's hard to point the finger in one direction and say conclusively "it's your fault!". Personally I'd argue that the blame most squarely sits with the DfT as they're the only organisation since the demise of the SRA that can really lay claim to a "guiding mind" roll within the industry and they are the ones that have continually let franchises or direct awards which haven't included requirements for TOCs that are leaving the scene before the deadline to prepare their fleets (or to give the ROSCOs the certainty to take those steps themselves). But certainly this is not exclusively a DfT failing.
A very good post, covers the things I think but much better worded than I can do
 

bramling

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The whole point of privatisation is that the private sector can take riskd and such.

And now the ROSCOs are whining because they demand not to have to take anu risks at all.

If they don't want to take risks, they should just accept that those trains will go out of use.
That's their problem, not the taxpayers or the farepayers

It is the farepayers problem if trains go out of service and there aren’t enough trains left to meet the timetable, which seems to be the reality of the situation.

The current news is pretty shambolic, but a dispensation is the only way out of the mess.

There’s certainly elements of the current setup which need deep scrutiny. Rolling stock strategy is a shambles, the current situation is nothing short of bull in a china shop. Add in ongoing issues with crewing and timetabling, with more and more areas of the network joining in the mess, and some serious questions deserve to be asked of the DFT’s leadership.
 
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