GWR Dec 19 timetable

The irony is, up to a point, the more significantly a XC gets delayed, the more likely the GWR train will arrive on time.

I agree the connections from Reading are much worse, but was merely giving my views on some of the wider reasons why the Superfast trains are struggling to arrive at Oxford on time, hence just quoting that part of your previous reply, rather than the specific part about the missed connections from Reading.

After all, it’s a key part of the timetable this thread is supposed to be discussing - as if they are delayed at Didcot they hit the punctuality of the following Superfast to Bristol right behind.

Does anyone know the reason why these XC services are so poor performing? This appears to be the elephant in the room on this issue.

Trains running 29L, 25L etc does not seem like normal to me, they're often a handful of minutes down but not by that much.

II said:

The irony is, up to a point, the more significantly a XC gets delayed, the more likely the GWR train will arrive on time.

I agree the connections from Reading are much worse, but was merely giving my views on some of the wider reasons why the Superfast trains are struggling to arrive at Oxford on time, hence just quoting that part of your previous reply, rather than the specific part about the missed connections from Reading.

After all, it’s a key part of the timetable this thread is supposed to be discussing - as if they are delayed at Didcot they hit the punctuality of the following Superfast to Bristol right behind.

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But not very ironically, when that scenario unfolds, the connections to the Cotswold Line from Reading are wrecked and anyone just wanting to get from Reading to Oxford is delayed as well.

As for much worse, that's putting it mildly.

We have gone straight from having reliable and punctual direct GWR trains from Reading to Oxford and beyond in the afternoon peak to an utter shambles without passing go - having been assured there was absolutely nothing to worry about - apart, of course, from being told to use XC services that are notorious for overcrowding and where punctuality has never been their strong point since the 2tph frequency began all the way back in 2002.

All the people trying to get home from Reading couldn't care less about a whole four trains potentially reaching Oxford from London five minutes faster than they do the rest of the day, as most are of the view that they have been abandoned to their fate by GWR and Network Rail and spun a load of PR rubbish about this being for the benefit of 'the majority' - who have, of course, seen precious little benefit themselves this week. Two of yesterday's superfasts then ended up being delayed past Oxford.

Wilts Wanderer said:

Does anyone know the reason why these XC services are so poor performing? This appears to be the elephant in the room on this issue.

Trains running 29L, 25L etc does not seem like normal to me, they're often a handful of minutes down but not by that much.

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Late-running is a fact of life on XC services between Birmingham and the South Coast. How bad it gets varies, but last week was rubbish as well, so I'm afraid no one can blame the timetable change for this.

This was last Friday's XC scorecard at Oxford
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...3/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=XC

A handful of minutes' delay is all that is needed to screw up the connections for the Cotswold Line at Oxford, as was the case for those on the 17.15 XC from Reading yesterday (which is meant to arrive at 17.05 for a leisurely 10-minute turnaround). This service runs to Didcot on the relief line, so anyone on board sat on the left-hand side of the train will have seen the 16.58 from Paddington sail past on the main line before Didcot.

This relief line/main line scenario also applies to the 18.15 and 19.15 XC trains out of Reading and the GWR services they are meant to precede into Oxford, so even if the XC services are nearer to time, there would still be the risk of them being held outside Didcot to let an on-time GWR train go ahead. And will be so long as this unsatisfactory set-up continues.

I think I saw flooding issues at Bournemouth yesterday which may well have been the cause for any of them that came up from that direction? Also I’m not sure what kind of an effect the SWR strike might be having?

I took the opportunity to use 1H09, the Superfast 0915 from Paddington to Bristol Parkway this morning.

It is booked 69 minutes for that run (WTT), 68 minutes advertised.

It did the journey in the 69 booked minutes. 1 late off PAD, it got a clear run to Highworth where it was 4 early, was checked then through Swindon to Wootton Bassett as it had caught up with the preceding service (1C07 PAD-BRI-EXD; which itself was 2 early into Swindon), although in theory this just put it back on schedule. It then got checked again between Westerleigh and Parkway as it was following a Cross Country that was a couple of minutes late as it was itself following the late Worcester-Westbury GW service...

Lovely run, but interesting diagramming as it looks as though 1C07 (0902 PAD-BRI-EXD via Box) is 2x5-car, arriving BRI at 1037, drops its rear set at BRI, which then forms the 1053 (via Badminton) 5-car to London. 1H09 (PAD-BPW-BRI) is 9-car, arriving at BRI at 1036, and returns as the 1100 via Box.

II said:

I think I saw flooding issues at Bournemouth yesterday which may well have been the cause for any of them that came up from that direction? Also I’m not sure what kind of an effect the SWR strike might be having?

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There was a broken rail near Bournemouth the day before which affected XC as well. It’s possibly not been a normal week for XC...

II said:

I think I saw flooding issues at Bournemouth yesterday which may well have been the cause for any of them that came up from that direction? Also I’m not sure what kind of an effect the SWR strike might be having?

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swt_passenger said:

There was a broken rail near Bournemouth the day before which affected XC as well. It’s possibly not been a normal week for XC...

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The delays on XC trains through Oxford are to services in both directions - just look at realtimetrains from last Friday or any day this week if you don't believe me. And a normal week for XC through Oxford and Reading equals late running far too much of the time, compounded by the company's overall performance slipping badly this autumn.

http://trains.im/ppmhistorical/XC/monthly

I don't doubt some northbound issues are knock-on effects from delays on previous workings down to Southampton and Bournemouth, but XC's services have never been punctual enough over many years for them to be relied on to provide on-time fast services between Reading and Oxford - never mind slick connections on to the Cotswold Line in late afternoon and early evening on weekdays. Something that has not been needed for many years until now, thanks to existence of a decent GWR through service at that time of day.

The two stoppers an hour between Didcot and Twyford are very good but spoiled (for me) by the time wasting 15 minute wait at Reading.
I'm not sure if they all do that but the one I usually catch to travel to Twyford does.

Bill EWS said:

The two stoppers an hour between Didcot and Twyford are very good but spoiled (for me) by the time wasting 15 minute wait at Reading.
I'm not sure if they all do that but the one I usually catch to travel to Twyford does.

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Yes it's a feature of the new timetable, they previously used to wait time, but this was only 5 minutes or so.
The patching of these services east of Reading is actually ridiculous, I was on one yesterday morning, crawled all the way from basically Langley to Hayes and Harrington, and still took 50 minutes despite dropping the Langley and Iver call.

Bill EWS said:

The two stoppers an hour between Didcot and Twyford are very good but spoiled (for me) by the time wasting 15 minute wait at Reading.
I'm not sure if they all do that but the one I usually catch to travel to Twyford does.

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cactustwirly said:

Yes it's a feature of the new timetable, they previously used to wait time, but this was only 5 minutes or so.
The patching of these services east of Reading is actually ridiculous, I was on one yesterday morning, crawled all the way from basically Langley to Hayes and Harrington, and still took 50 minutes despite dropping the Langley and Iver call.

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Hopefully these things can be fine tuned a little over progressive timetables, though fighting for space on the relief lines east (or for that matter, west) of Reading won't be easy - it was a case of 'cut and run' for a few aspects of this newly introduced timetable that NR couldn't/wouldn't validate and rejected. Some last minute workarounds were found, for example having non-standard timings to get the three trains per hour on the Reading to Basingstoke peak service, but in some cases not, for example terminating many local services at Filton Abbey Wood rather than Bristol Parkway, removing the Reading stops on most of the peak Oxford's, and the curious case of the first stop Goring evening Turbo from Reading. I'm sure there are other examples.

To give you an idea, AIUI GWR submitted 1774 passenger service bids for this timetable change, 896 of which were accepted without change, 182 were sped up, and 646 had journey time increases compared to the bid (some of those were challenged successfully). That leaves 50 which were rejected and had to be hastily re-bid for, some of which were on the North Downs Line and a workaround was made due to Turbos still operating the service instead of 769s, but I guess the remainder is where the problems lie? With the foundations now laid, hopefully some minor tweaking can now be done in time for May to solve most of them?

'sup with the cancelled services to and from Cheltenham?

Pete_uk said:

'sup with the cancelled services to and from Cheltenham?

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Normal weekend service, it’s been like this for 3 years now.

No up Paddington trains at Bristol Parkway yesterday morning from 0914 to 1056, coupling problems on the Carmarthen Paddington so it ran fast after Newport and 3 lots of traincrew issues. Stop not reinstated on the Carmarthen regardless and I quote "the train is needed in London" (sighs.....).

And 1804 Paddington Penzance last night cancelled, coupling issues and traincrew problems, alas passengers not booted off until 1904 to Penzance (last to that irrelevant Cornwall place) had departed......

There appear to be several delays and cancellations to early morning services starting at Paddington this morning due to a "shortage of train crew".

Jamesrob637 said:

48 minutes from Reading to North Bristol is good going, although I am led to believe HSTs achieved this in the 1980s - mind you there were fewer trains back then!

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On Thursday I took the 19.15 PAD to Weston. Heavily delayed behind the 19.07 Bedwyn (given priority at Acton West crossing from the relief, then made its Twyford stop on the down main...) and it took 37m 00s to pass Reading (16 late). Then had a clear road, apart from an easing to 99 before Hullavington (TSR?) to reach Parkway in 78m 52s, so 41m 52s from Reading pass to Parkway stop (109 mph) to regain 6 minutes.

Despite that I thought it rather uninspiring as max was only 123 and passage of Steventon and Wootton Bassett could have been better!

Sean Emmett said:

On Thursday I took the 19.15 PAD to Weston. Heavily delayed behind the 19.07 Bedwyn (given priority at Acton West crossing from the relief, then made its Twyford stop on the down main...) and it took 37m 00s to pass Reading (16 late). Then had a clear road, apart from an easing to 99 before Hullavington (TSR?) to reach Parkway in 78m 52s, so 41m 52s from Reading pass to Parkway stop (109 mph) to regain 6 minutes.

Despite that I thought it rather uninspiring as max was only 123 and passage of Steventon and Wootton Bassett could have been better!

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A couple of points of interest;
- if the IET’s ‘cruise-control’ is being used by the driver, it will hold the train 1-2mph under the speed set (so 125mph setting will cruise at 123-4mph
- Steventon is currently 110mph PSR for electric trains, but there is also a neutral section approaching Milton so that can hamper speed profile depending on signal aspects
- for passenger comfort reasons drivers will traverse Wootton Bassett Jcn (when turning right) at 60mph despite the linespeed permitting 70mph

Wilts Wanderer said:

A couple of points of interest;
- if the IET’s ‘cruise-control’ is being used by the driver, it will hold the train 1-2mph under the speed set (so 125mph setting will cruise at 123-4mph
- Steventon is currently 110mph PSR for electric trains, but there is also a neutral section approaching Milton so that can hamper speed profile depending on signal aspects
- for passenger comfort reasons drivers will traverse Wootton Bassett Jcn (when turning right) at 60mph despite the linespeed permitting 70mph

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Re cruise control - does tyre wear mean that cuising at 123 is now the norm?

At Steventon speed came down to 106 vice 110 limit. At Westerleigh minimum was 69 so close to limit, but I have recorded smarter braking. The recovery was pretty good though.

I'll be recording quite a few more trips on the 19.15 in the new year, but will also pay the extra (off peak rather than super off peak) to sample the 19.00 ex PAD, first stop Chippenham.

Sean Emmett said:

Re cruise control - does tyre wear mean that cuising at 123 is now the norm?

At Steventon speed came down to 106 vice 110 limit. At Westerleigh minimum was 69 so close to limit, but I have recorded smarter braking. The recovery was pretty good though.

I'll be recording quite a few more trips on the 19.15 in the new year, but will also pay the extra (off peak rather than super off peak) to sample the 19.00 ex PAD, first stop Chippenham.

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I think the cruise control is simply because even on ‘autopilot’ the train has a reaction time and it’s to prevent accidental 126mph. Remember the train doesn’t anticipate things like changes to gradient. It would be interesting to hear from any GWR drivers whether they use it or not.

Wilts Wanderer said:

I think the cruise control is simply because even on ‘autopilot’ the train has a reaction time and it’s to prevent accidental 126mph. Remember the train doesn’t anticipate things like changes to gradient. It would be interesting to hear from any GWR drivers whether they use it or not.

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Most do in my experience. I don’t.

Problems galore with the service to Bedwyn departing Paddington at 1708 yesterday. One of the problems that passengers were told about was needing to wait for crew members at Reading because staff are not used to the new timetable change! Because of its length (2*5 car sets) it does not fit the platform at Theale leading to passengers being on the wrong portion of the train at THeale. RTT has it cancelled at Newbury which fits with what my daughter was told at Slough - there was a delay due to a mechanical problem.
The train was due to split at Newbury - half to Bedwyn and half to remain at Newbury. How many diagrams are like this on the Berks and Hants line?

Wilts Wanderer said:

I think the cruise control is simply because even on ‘autopilot’ the train has a reaction time and it’s to prevent accidental 126mph. Remember the train doesn’t anticipate things like changes to gradient. It would be interesting to hear from any GWR drivers whether they use it or not.

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I don't know anyone who does use it, total waste of time as you still speed on downhill gradients and as mentioned in this thread it keeps you below linespeed, not on it.

Choice of words to describe how bad things are as a customer depending on the railway is tricky. There always has to be room left to describe how awful regularly using Northern to try to get somewhere is... So that's "fiasco", "execrable", "wretched" etc reserved for that.

The service on GWR hasn't been the sort of unmitigated disaster associated with recent major timetable changes on Northern and Thameslink. No mass cancellations, no chaotic scenes of droves of people left stranded etc.

However, the reality on the ground when it's mattered has been that the new timetable is just an aspiration. It appears to have only a vague connection with outcomes.

This: https://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/Home/Search?Op=Srch&Fr=Bristol+Parkway+(BPW)&To=London+Paddington+(PAD)&TimTyp=D&TimDay=4p&Days=Wk&TimPer=7d&dtFr=14/12/2019&dtTo=21/12/2019&ShwTim=AvAr&MxArCl=5&TOC=All&ArrSta=5&MetAvg=Mea&MetSpr=RT&MxScDu=&MxSvAg=&MnScCt= reflects lived experience. A sea of red in terms of usability.

My personal experience is that 4 of 5 journeys in this direction this week will result in Delay Repay. The so-called superfast services from Bristol PW I've taken have been nothing of the sort with one exception. The reality was officially 1:37, Cancelled, 1:26, 1:15, 1:29, but worse in reality thanks to the train often coupling to another on arrival at PAD with all the punters locked in for another couple of minutes as a result.

So, the practical upshot of the new "speeded up" timetable appears to be that I'll have to take a significantly earlier train than at any point in the last 15 years to have a reasonable chance of getting to Paddington by the critical time. Brilliant.

I'm prepared to believe there may need to be a bedding in period but as a layperson I couldn't see much evidence for this on the ground. There always seems to be something wrong with the infrastructure on this route, that there were such problems this week was par for the course. There appears to be no slack or contingency for anything in the new timetable so as soon as the proverbial butterfly flaps its wings, it all goes to pot.

I really hope this is going to improve, but it doesn't look at all promising so far.

timatheronwood said:

Problems galore with the service to Bedwyn departing Paddington at 1708 yesterday...
[…]
The train was due to split at Newbury - half to Bedwyn and half to remain at Newbury. How many diagrams are like this on the Berks and Hants line?

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My reading of RTT suggests it’s the only service that splits. Presumably there for evening peak capacity to Newbury.

timatheronwood said:

Problems galore with the service to Bedwyn departing Paddington at 1708 yesterday. One of the problems that passengers were told about was needing to wait for crew members at Reading because staff are not used to the new timetable change! Because of its length (2*5 car sets) it does not fit the platform at Theale leading to passengers being on the wrong portion of the train at THeale. RTT has it cancelled at Newbury which fits with what my daughter was told at Slough - there was a delay due to a mechanical problem.
The train was due to split at Newbury - half to Bedwyn and half to remain at Newbury. How many diagrams are like this on the Berks and Hants line?

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There was a lot of "back slapping" on social media the previous day because it worked !!!!

irish_rail said:

I don't know anyone who does use it, total waste of time as you still speed on downhill gradients and as mentioned in this thread it keeps you below linespeed, not on it.

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Well, I beg to differ as I know quite a few drivers who do use it. It can be quite useful for slightly unusual situations, such as not exceeding 90mph when put over on the relief lines. I know some drivers who set it for a low speed when they are stopped at a red signal to act as mitigation against a SOY SPAD. I even know a couple of drivers who set it at 40mph, then 50mph then 100mph when leaving Paddington as the speed rises. Each to their own, as long as using it doesn't become a distraction, and it's a tool that can be useful to some if not everyone.

Apart from above 125mph you can set it for any speed, so if the linespeed is 100mph, set it at 101mph and it will keep at 100mph, not that the odd mile an hour makes a huge difference. Downhill stretches can be a problem - it doesn't apply the brake as the cruise control system on the Class 180s did (when it wasn't isolated), but otherwise it's a good system that works pretty well and is very quick and simple to set or cancel.

mikeb42 said:

Choice of words to describe how bad things are as a customer depending on the railway is tricky. There always has to be room left to describe how awful regularly using Northern to try to get somewhere is... So that's "fiasco", "execrable", "wretched" etc reserved for that.

The service on GWR hasn't been the sort of unmitigated disaster associated with recent major timetable changes on Northern and Thameslink. No mass cancellations, no chaotic scenes of droves of people left stranded etc.

However, the reality on the ground when it's mattered has been that the new timetable is just an aspiration. It appears to have only a vague connection with outcomes.

This: https://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/Home/Search?Op=Srch&Fr=Bristol+Parkway+(BPW)&To=London+Paddington+(PAD)&TimTyp=D&TimDay=4p&Days=Wk&TimPer=7d&dtFr=14/12/2019&dtTo=21/12/2019&ShwTim=AvAr&MxArCl=5&TOC=All&ArrSta=5&MetAvg=Mea&MetSpr=RT&MxScDu=&MxSvAg=&MnScCt= reflects lived experience. A sea of red in terms of usability.

My personal experience is that 4 of 5 journeys in this direction this week will result in Delay Repay. The so-called superfast services from Bristol PW I've taken have been nothing of the sort with one exception. The reality was officially 1:37, Cancelled, 1:26, 1:15, 1:29, but worse in reality thanks to the train often coupling to another on arrival at PAD with all the punters locked in for another couple of minutes as a result.

So, the practical upshot of the new "speeded up" timetable appears to be that I'll have to take a significantly earlier train than at any point in the last 15 years to have a reasonable chance of getting to Paddington by the critical time. Brilliant.

I'm prepared to believe there may need to be a bedding in period but as a layperson I couldn't see much evidence for this on the ground. There always seems to be something wrong with the infrastructure on this route, that there were such problems this week was par for the course. There appears to be no slack or contingency for anything in the new timetable so as soon as the proverbial butterfly flaps its wings, it all goes to pot.

I really hope this is going to improve, but it doesn't look at all promising so far.

Click to expand...

II said:

Well, I beg to differ as I know quite a few drivers who do use it. It can be quite useful for slightly unusual situations, such as not exceeding 90mph when put over on the relief lines. I know some drivers who set it for a low speed when they are stopped at a red signal to act as mitigation against a SOY SPAD. I even know a couple of drivers who set it at 40mph, then 50mph then 100mph when leaving Paddington as the speed rises. Each to their own, as long as using it doesn't become a distraction, and it's a tool that can be useful to some if not everyone.

Apart from above 125mph you can set it for any speed, so if the linespeed is 100mph, set it at 101mph and it will keep at 100mph, not that the odd mile an hour makes a huge difference. Downhill stretches can be a problem - it doesn't apply the brake as the cruise control system on the Class 180s did (when it wasn't isolated), but otherwise it's a good system that works pretty well and is very quick and simple to set or cancel.

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Personally I try to avoid over interaction with the TMS. The collision at Neville Hill proves the point that constantly fiddling with the computer on the move is more likely to lead to a cock up than leaving the damm thing alone! But each to their own...

Can we please stick to the GWR Dec 19 timetable in this thread.

If anyone wishes to discuss anything else, we have plenty of capacity for other threads; if another topic is linked, I have no objection to a post being made in this thread with a link to any other thread.

Thanks

Edit: there is also a separate post for the Night Rivera timetable changes: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/night-riviera-changes.197179/#post-4347805

Didnt realise Cardiff Central to Penzance services were operated by class 150. I was expecting a HST Castle class or at worse a 158. My shock horror when a 150 turned up.
I'm stuck on here for 3 hours awfully long to be on a 150 class. Its the humming of the engines.

CptCharlee said:

Didnt realise Cardiff Central to Penzance services were operated by class 150. I was expecting a HST Castle class or at worse a 158. My shock horror when a 150 turned up.
I'm stuck on here for 3 hours awfully long to be on a 150 class. Its the humming of the engines.

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It should have been Castle but failed

CharlesR said:

And since you have seen an increase in services and service patterns that work better with each over. Your evidence being “we had 8 cars for 40 years” doesn’t really provide a valid argument to rethinking this whole project,

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That capacity created by more services won't last long, Look at Virgin XC, who went for smaller units, and increased service, it only last 5 years before it went belly up.

Trains are always going to be busy, but it seems this country is going about it the wrong way and not learning from how things where done in the past.