Help with identifying location!

Bevan Price · 10 Mar 2019

The RCTS History of LSWR Locomotives notes that from 1925, some T9s were transferred to the SR Eastern Section, and from 1928 some went to the Central Section. Most later returned to the Western Section. It also notes that the final steam-worked train on the Mid-Sussex line (before electric working commenced in July 1938) was worked by a Fratton T9.

As an afterthought, it is worth commenting that all 66 of the T9 class lasted for over 50 years, and some exceeded 60 years. The preserved no. 120 (BR 30120) is almost 120 years old.

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Bedpan · 11 Mar 2019

Thanks very much both of you. Most informative. I suppose that the reason that I never saw any other than on the Western Section (where I lived) was that by 1960 electrification of the Central Section was more or less complete, other than the branches that have were closed - I can only think of the East Grinstead line as having been electrified since.

Arglwydd Golau · 6 Dec 2019

Another unknown location for the sleuths to identify! Also can anyone identify the type of loco and the significance of '3' on the disc?

Ash Bridge · 6 Dec 2019

Station wise the first place that springs to mind for me is Clapham Junction. Locomotive is quite possibly a LSWR Class S11 4-4-0.

krus_aragon · 6 Dec 2019

That's very out of my patch, but the sign at the end of the platform indicates that it's in L&SWR territory for starters.

Arglwydd Golau · 6 Dec 2019

Ah yes, Clapham Junction, why didn't I think of that? Would make sense if dad and his schoolfriends were on a spotting trip. What would the building be on the bridge? Signal Box (of some kind)? Krus aragon, yes, I should have looked at the sign in more detail, did the Brighton side of the station have LBSCR signs?

Ash Bridge · 6 Dec 2019

Arglwydd Golau said:
Ah yes, Clapham Junction, why didn't I think of that? Would make sense if dad and his schoolfriends were on a spotting trip. What would the building be on the bridge? Signal Box (of some kind)? Krus aragon, yes, I should have looked at the sign in more detail, did the Brighton side of the station have LBSCR signs?

Yes, signal box it was assuming of course that I'm correct in suggesting Clapham. It famously partially collapsed sometime during the 1960s, your dad and his friends certainly travelled about quite a bit for schoolboys it seems back then Arglwydd Golau?

Arglwydd Golau · 6 Dec 2019

Ash Bridge said:
Yes, signal box it was assuming of course that I'm correct in suggesting Clapham. It famously partially collapsed sometime during the 1960s, your dad and his friends certainly travelled about quite a bit for schoolboys it seems back then Arglwydd Golau?

Well, Clapham Junction would have been the obvious place to do a bit of spotting from school in Leatherhead...of the handful of photographs I have that were clearly on the Southern I can identify some locations, a couple were clearly Dorking now that has been identified and I think there might be one or two at Redhill...when I have a moment I'll upload one of those photographs for confirmation. Unfortunately I have absolutely no further information of what the Railway Club at Leatherhead were up to!

Arglwydd Golau · 22 Dec 2019

Another one.....you'll understand that none of these photos would win 'Photograph of the month competition', I'm just trying to find out where Dad used to hang around during his schooldays! I think that this is an N15 'King Arthur' and the discs seem to indicate 'Waterloo and Guildford via East Putney'...at least www.semgonline.co.uk explains that these were Southern Rly. headcodes from 1934, though I believe Dad had left Leatherhead by then.
Looks like 4 track with a bridge over a main road, can't say for certain that the photo was taken from a place of safety!

Peter Mugridge · 22 Dec 2019

My first instinct is the road may be the A243 between Surbiton and Hampton Court Junction?

30907 · 22 Dec 2019

Tentatively, he's at (or just beyond!) the down end of Raynes Park platform.
The very solid row of houses at a diagonal would be Camberley Avenue (which doesn't continue under the railway, as the up Epsom is in the way, I think those may be its earthworks just this side of the hoardings).
The only plausible alternative is Kingston Road bridge beyond New Malden but there's no sign of the bridge girders and the houses don't match - and he would have been seriously trespassing!

Peter Mugridge said:
My first instinct is the road may be the A243 between Surbiton and Hampton Court Junction?

The angle of the road looks good, but the line at that point is 5 running lines plus a siding, and the houses don't look a good match.

Peter Mugridge · 22 Dec 2019

The B282 bridge at Raynes park has girders between all the tracks, though?

Camberley Avenue doesn't go under the line, and the Epsom line earthworks would be on the other side of the line behind the camera assuming an eastbound train; if a westbound train there wouldn't be houses at all as the line is too close to the road - which is also curved.

The A243 bridge only has girders over the two southernmost tracks, which if it's there and the train is headed west rather than east would be behind the train. There looks to be a space between the edge of the bridge and the nearest visible track; from memory the 5th track is already on a down grade at that point so would not show from a low camera angle?

A couple of screenshots below from Google Earth to illustrate this:

The Raynes Park bridge:

The Surbiton bridge:

MotCO · 22 Dec 2019

I was also thinking of Raynes Park, but with the train going west, and the road going away from the railway being Grand Drive. On the corner near the railway, there was a coal yard, which could be where the advertising hoardings are.

181 · 23 Dec 2019

I don't think it's Surbiton.

30907 said:
The angle of the road looks good, but the line at that point is 5 running lines plus a siding, and the houses don't look a good match.

Indeed. If it was an up train, the buildings in that position currently look like this, and mostly predate the photo; if it was a down train, there aren't any buildings there (just the backs of the houses in Arlington Road), and presumably weren't then. I'm not sure whether the siding still extends over the bridge, but it certainly used to and probably did then, and although until a few years ago the down Hampton Court line didn't diverge until west of the bridge, the fact that there was room to extend it across the bridge suggests that this extension was a reinstatement of something that had been there in the past. All tracks there are on the same level.

MotCO said:
I was also thinking of Raynes Park, but with the train going west, and the road going away from the railway being Grand Drive. On the corner near the railway, there was a coal yard, which could be where the advertising hoardings are.

I'm much less familiar with Raynes Park, but it looks as if the houses may fit.

30907 · 23 Dec 2019

MotCO said:
I was also thinking of Raynes Park, but with the train going west, and the road going away from the railway being Grand Drive. On the corner near the railway, there was a coal yard, which could be where the advertising hoardings are.

Yes, I'd wondered about Grand Drive but
1. it would be angled about 100deg to the track (0 is left), whereas the picture shows the road at about 60deg.
2. the photographer would be on the up local platform, which he obviously isnt.
3. the up end of the down platform or the points would be visible.

Peter Mugridge said:
The B282 bridge at Raynes park has girders between all the tracks, though?

Camberley Avenue doesn't go under the line, and the Epsom line earthworks would be on the other side of the line behind the camera assuming an eastbound train; if a westbound train there wouldn't be houses at all as the line is too close to the road - which is also curved.

The B282 bridge AND the Up Epsom bridge would both be out of shot to the left.
"Earthworks" was the wrong word to use, I think I mean the open ground between the Main and the Up Epsom.

Back to the A243 - the houses on Arlington Rd are predominantly Victorian, the picture looks uniformly typical 20's semis, whitewashed at that.

Almost certainly the photographer has his back to the light, such as it is, which is basic technique for a 30s schoolboy, so is on the down side.

Arglwydd Golau · 23 Dec 2019

Many thanks for your replies and sleuth-work, @Peter Mugridge,30907,MotCO and 181! I thought that it might be very difficult to identify, but it seems that you have it spot on! I don't know the area at all, but having had a look at railway maps and the link to Google maps I would think it might be Raynes Park, not least because it would be - correct me if I am wrong - the nearest place for a group of impecunious schoolboys from Leatherhead to view trains on the Main Line to and from the west. I'm not sure that travelling further to Surbiton would have been necessary if that was all they wanted to do!

30907 · 23 Dec 2019

Arglwydd Golau said:
I would think it might be Raynes Park, not least because it would be - correct me if I am wrong - the nearest place for a group of impecunious schoolboys from Leatherhead to view trains on the Main Line to and from the west. I'm not sure that travelling further to Surbiton would have been necessary if that was all they wanted to do!

That was part of my thinking!
The angle of the road still doesn't look quite right to me, but I cannot locate anywhere else on the early 30s Southern Electric network

rogercov · 24 Dec 2019

Arglwydd Golau said:
Well, Clapham Junction would have been the obvious place to do a bit of spotting from school in Leatherhead...of the handful of photographs I have that were clearly on the Southern I can identify some locations, a couple were clearly Dorking now that has been identified and I think there might be one or two at Redhill...when I have a moment I'll upload one of those photographs for confirmation. Unfortunately I have absolutely no further information of what the Railway Club at Leatherhead were up to!

Going back to your wonderful picture in post #33 and the subsequent comments suggesting Clapham Junction, I have checked some old maps and suggest that it is actually Waterloo, but I'm happy to be proved wrong.
The track layout matches and the gantry and signal box looks like the original Waterloo box which was replaced in 1936.
On the attached map from around 1950, I have indicated in black the former position of the gantry and signal box and the position from which the photo was taken, at the end of platforms 3/4. The signal box is clearly visible on the attached aerial view from 1930 (This is part of a picture from the book "Waterloo Station through time" from Google Books).

Arglwydd Golau · 27 Dec 2019

Many thanks,rogercov! i've been having a little search for old photos of Waterloo signal box and have come up with the two attached,but both seem to have a significant difference from the photo taken by my father in that the box itself (in my father's photo) doesn't cover the whole gantry, but it must be the same (unless I'm missing something)!

WesternLancer · 27 Dec 2019

Arglwydd Golau said:
View attachment 72081 View attachment 72082 Many thanks,rogercov! i've been having a little search for old photos of Waterloo signal box and have come up with the two attached,but both seem to have a significant difference from the photo taken by my father in that the box itself (in my father's photo) doesn't cover the whole gantry, but it must be the same (unless I'm missing something)!

I've really enjoyed looking at your dad's old pics - like you say not going to win awards, but so what, to think of a school boy taking those pics back then is great. That they have survived all these years is very nice, to be shared on a medium that would have seemed like science fiction when your dad was at school!

I grew up on the central division of the BR(SR) in the 70s and 80s. If I had the chance I would get up in school hols to Clapham Jct, Waterloo and Raynes Park areas to spot stuff on the SW division. Not sure I had the foresight to take pics though and pocket money for film was rationed.

So although I can't recognise these locations, thanks for sharing them as very interesting to see.

30907 · 28 Dec 2019

Arglwydd Golau said:
View attachment 72081 View attachment 72082 Many thanks,rogercov! i've been having a little search for old photos of Waterloo signal box and have come up with the two attached,but both seem to have a significant difference from the photo taken by my father in that the box itself (in my father's photo) doesn't cover the whole gantry, but it must be the same (unless I'm missing something)!

The first photo (with the neatly posed staff members) shows the "old" Waterloo, the second is (fairly soon, from the locos?) after the 1922 rebuild, taken from platforms 7/8; the box gantry has been extended to the left to cross the approach to platforms 1-4.

rogercov · 1 Jan 2020

Arglwydd Golau said:
Many thanks,rogercov! i've been having a little search for old photos of Waterloo signal box and have come up with the two attached,but both seem to have a significant difference from the photo taken by my father in that the box itself (in my father's photo) doesn't cover the whole gantry, but it must be the same (unless I'm missing something)!

Thanks for those two pictures. As 30907 says, the first one shows the signal box before the gantry was extended. I believe this was taken from the old platform 3/4 which was renumbered to 7/8 by the time the second picture was taken. Note the steps down to ground level on the left.

In the second picture, these steps have been removed and the gantry (presumably with a walkway) has been extended across the new suburban lines (the new platforms 1-4). Note that the array of signals disappeared as part of this rebuild.

Your father's photo was taken from further to the left, from the new platform 3/4. The signal box buildings are the same in all 3 pictures but taken from different angles. It appears from the pictures that the new platforms 1-4 were the only electrified lines at the time.

30907 · 1 Jan 2020

Ash Bridge said:
Locomotive is quite possibly a LSWR Class S11 4-4-0.

Sorry, missed this earlier: I read the number as 395 which would confirm it as a S11.
BTW the rectangular board with 3 on it perhaps indicates a special of some sort - races?

rogercov said:
It appears from the pictures that the new platforms 1-4 were the only electrified lines at the time.

True for the photo taken from 7/8 (though the Windsor side must also have been done at that stage - but by the OP's photo 5 at least is electrified, and I would have guessed a few more.

Arglwydd Golau · 13 Jan 2020

30907 said:
Sorry, missed this earlier: I read the number as 395 which would confirm it as a S11.
BTW the rectangular board with 3 on it perhaps indicates a special of some sort - races?

Your eyesight must be better than mine, I couldn't make it out! Anyway, I dug out my father's old notebooks of loco's he has seen and sure enough 395 was there, unfortunately no location was mentioned...and of course he might have seen it many times whilst he was at Leatherhead. Incidentally, it occurred to me that, in the days before the advent of Ian Allans ABC guides, spotters had to make their own lists, and it seems from the style of writing that he transcribed his numbers into a neat notebook contemporaneously, possibly after he left school and returned to North Wales...and then sadly discarded his notebooks. Subsequent notebooks that I have in my possession begin in 1934, therefore I'm unable to date any earlier photographs more accurately.
Then, as I was planning to upload another photo, I quickly checked in his notebook (as the number was clearly visible) and he had included the note 'snapped at Redhill'...so I was in no need of the expertise of Forum Members!

WesternLancer said:
I've really enjoyed looking at your dad's old pics - like you say not going to win awards, but so what, to think of a school boy taking those pics back then is great. That they have survived all these years is very nice, to be shared on a medium that would have seemed like science fiction when your dad was at school!
.

Thank you for your kind comment! Clearly his major constraint was lack of money, the cost of buying film and then paying for it to be developed must have been way beyond his means, except obviously when he had some spare cash. (This would meet with little understanding in the age of digital photography). His other constraint was his lack of awareness of the capability of the Box Brownie, something which in later life caused much mirth amongst me and my brothers.Yet...a small number of the photos he took have been welcomed by the Historical archivists in the Welsh Highland and Penrhyn Railway societies, as he spent many hours on both railways.
There might be a few more with unknown locations that I can upload.

WesternLancer · 13 Jan 2020

Arglwydd Golau said:
Your eyesight must be better than mine, I couldn't make it out! Anyway, I dug out my father's old notebooks of loco's he has seen and sure enough 395 was there, unfortunately no location was mentioned...and of course he might have seen it many times whilst he was at Leatherhead. Incidentally, it occurred to me that, in the days before the advent of Ian Allans ABC guides, spotters had to make their own lists, and it seems from the style of writing that he transcribed his numbers into a neat notebook contemporaneously, possibly after he left school and returned to North Wales...and then sadly discarded his notebooks. Subsequent notebooks that I have in my possession begin in 1934, therefore I'm unable to date any earlier photographs more accurately.
Then, as I was planning to upload another photo, I quickly checked in his notebook (as the number was clearly visible) and he had included the note 'snapped at Redhill'...so I was in no need of the expertise of Forum Members!

Thank you for your kind comment! Clearly his major constraint was lack of money, the cost of buying film and then paying for it to be developed must have been way beyond his means, except obviously when he had some spare cash. (This would meet with little understanding in the age of digital photography). His other constraint was his lack of awareness of the capability of the Box Brownie, something which in later life caused much mirth amongst me and my brothers.Yet...a small number of the photos he took have been welcomed by the Historical archivists in the Welsh Highland and Penrhyn Railway societies, as he spent many hours on both railways.
There might be a few more with unknown locations that I can upload.

Well, I'd say upload any you like (missing locations or not) since it is interesting to see them and interesting to imagine oneself in that situation. Maybe a pic of your father too - so we can see the chap who took the pictures?
Would he perhaps have developed any of the pics himself - eg in a school darkroom? My 1st pictures, in the very early 1980s were taken on B&W film, on school cameras loaned to us, and developed in the school dark room - hence the B&W - I'd have been about 12 or 13 years old I reckon.
All the best.

Arglwydd Golau · 2 Feb 2020

An ex-LBSCR Billington E4 at an unknown location, doesn't seem to be Dorking as there is only one chimney stack on the building. The crew look interested in the photographer and there appears to be a young man on the platform on the right, perhaps another member of the school club. Presumably on a local service...with a bunker full of coal.....but from where to where? (This loco survived until the end of 1962).

WesternLancer · 2 Feb 2020

Arglwydd Golau said:
An ex-LBSCR Billington E4 at an unknown location, doesn't seem to be Dorking as there is only one chimney stack on the building. The crew look interested in the photographer and there appears to be a young man on the platform on the right, perhaps another member of the school club. Presumably on a local service...with a bunker full of coal.....but from where to where? (This loco survived until the end of 1962).View attachment 73387

That's a nice quality pic.
Is that timber protection for 3rd rail, if so we are on electric territory. The roof station valancing seems distinctive to me, and not so typical LBSCR style as I would expect, but I can't offer any useful clues really.
Person on platform does have the air of a school cap and blazer. Loco crew seem to have ties on, is that to be expected?
Do you have a date from your father's school years, which combined with dates of 3rd rail route installations might narrow it down?

30907 · 3 Feb 2020

WesternLancer said:
That's a nice quality pic.
Is that timber protection for 3rd rail, if so we are on electric territory. The roof station valancing seems distinctive to me, and not so typical LBSCR style as I would expect, but I can't offer any useful clues really.
Person on platform does have the air of a school cap and blazer. Loco crew seem to have ties on, is that to be expected?
Do you have a date from your father's school years, which combined with dates of 3rd rail route installations might narrow it down?

It is very distinctive, and - after a virtual tour of larger LBSC stations - it is actually Dorking North, showing the wide island platform and its buildings. Hence the third rail (and EMU in the loop), plus the rail motor set being hauled to Horsham by a non-motor-fitted loco!
These photos are from a different angle but will do:
http://railthing.blogspot.com/2015/06/dorking-1973.html

WesternLancer · 3 Feb 2020

30907 said:
It is very distinctive, and - after a virtual tour of larger LBSC stations - it is actually Dorking North, showing the wide island platform and its buildings. Hence the third rail (and EMU in the loop), plus the rail motor set being hauled to Horsham by a non-motor-fitted loco!
These photos are from a different angle but will do:
http://railthing.blogspot.com/2015/06/dorking-1973.html

Very well worked out!

I'd not realsied the carriage in the back ground was an EMU, so that is interesting.

I see that the OP's post #16 is also at Dorking so maybe that was even on the same day. I think OP says that pic likely to be c1930-1933 ref the earlier one, so maybe this is the same sort of date.

And if at school in Leatherhead, Dorking would be close and good place to go to look at trains, given the ability to spend time on both lines through the town.

That link you posted is interesting too - evocative of my own childhood era in the south, on LBSCR territory!

This colour 1975 pic is good in that it shows some of the then remaining canopy.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21602076@N05/4312009377/in/photostream/

30907 · 3 Feb 2020

WesternLancer said:
Very well worked out!

I'd not realsied the carriage in the back ground was an EMU, so that is interesting.

Actually on reflection I've no idea why I thought it was - but given that most SR suburban units were recycled steam stock...

Help with identifying location!

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