Staff down tools at Manchester Victoria following assault 19/12/2019

faltskog36abba · 22 Dec 2019

I was in Victoria on Saturday 21st of this month and every train was delayed and some cancelled. The Chester train was on the departure board as waiting on platform one, [Which is bizarre as its the wrong direction]. Then an announcement that its been cancelled-Then a rail employee was walking along platform three telling passengers its on platform five?.

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Llama · 22 Dec 2019

There was even a train last week on the board at Man Vic as on "platform 0".

Oh, and pedant mode: westbound trains have been known to depart the bay platforms at Victoria. I've done a couple in my time and seen/heard of quite a few more do it, it's very rare but there's a legal signalled move changing ends on the Up Rochdale Slow between main aspect signals. I know a Wigan NW train left from platform 1 early this year.

jamesst · 22 Dec 2019

So purely out of interest is it a case of the information systems on the platforms at Victoria just not being able to keep up to date with the never ending disruption?

_toommm_ · 22 Dec 2019

In amongst the bedlam of Victoria this Saturday just gone of a 158 and 195 set swap on the Leeds to Chester runs, there were two who I presume Northern managers on the platform. One had an iPad for information and the other was trying to coordinate the logjam quickly building outside the station. There were also lots of contracted security bods, a good 10 to 15 on Platforms 4 and 5 alone so there has clearly been a knee jerk reaction to the previous events.

Llama · 22 Dec 2019

jamesst said:
So purely out of interest is it a case of the information systems on the platforms at Victoria just not being able to keep up to date with the never ending disruption?

That is one problem, yes. Even the fact that a reason for a delay on a train might take up two lines of text on the platforms screen so fewer trains can be shown.

The digital Doris doesn't help, constantly bleating "we are sorry that the..." etc. That should be switched off when the job stops. Everybody knows it's gone to pot, what is needed then is what little information is actually known at that point to be manually announced clearly. Crew are at the mercy of the same information sources that passengers are, we don't have any magic source of info but we are more experienced and have underpinning knowledge of units & crew diagrams so if a 319 is sat on platform 5 at Victoria we can say to someone with absolute confidence that it isn't going to, say, Rochdale.

Management 'volunteers' were planned to be visible at Manchester stations every Friday and Saturday night this year as they have been for several years now.

Kimi · 22 Dec 2019

Bantamzen said:
I cannot believe you brought up Hillsborough, did you not follow how the events on that fateful day played out? I'm sorry to say it but that is a disgraceful comparison.

GODWIN.

After the tragedy started, good people - including the spectators, emergency services and stewards did not abandon the post. The initial cause and initial police reaction was disgraceful. My point is that a crowd is dangerous to itself - as per Bethnal Green, my other example - not specifically the behaviour that led to it. Heck I have no idea how busy it even was at Vic at that point..

Also, I note with interest that you have not responded to me asking what you would do in similar circumstances. It is very easy to criticize those on front line jobs when you don't have to do them it seems.

If it makes you feel better... I will answer your rhetorical question. If unsafe, yes I would leave, and require backup of BTP or security. I have trouble believing that there was danger for the duration of the shutdown - because even in disruption, 99% of people are reasonable..

faltskog36abba · 22 Dec 2019

Llama said:
There was even a train last week on the board at Man Vic as on "platform 0".

Oh, and pedant mode: westbound trains have been known to depart the bay platforms at Victoria. I've done a couple in my time and seen/heard of quite a few more do it, it's very rare but there's a legal signalled move changing ends on the Up Rochdale Slow between main aspect signals. I know a Wigan NW train left from platform 1 early this year.

I forgot about that-your right of course, I remember a Clitheroe going out that way in the 90s only to return in platform five a few minutes later. I also remember around the same time I was waiting on platform one for a Caldervale train which was obviously booked for a two car train-There was also a pacer sitting idle. Then a three car train tried to get in and had to reverse to come back in platform three. The latter was the Blackpool to Scarborough, The guard gave me one of the destination posters as he was taking them down from the windows.

RSA BOB · 22 Dec 2019

Kimi said:
GODWIN.

After the tragedy started, good people - including the spectators, emergency services and stewards did not abandon the post. The initial cause and initial police reaction was disgraceful. My point is that a crowd is dangerous to itself - as per Bethnal Green, my other example - not specifically the behaviour that led to it. Heck I have no idea how busy it even was at Vic at that point..

If it makes you feel better... I will answer your rhetorical question. If unsafe, yes I would leave, and require backup of BTP or security. I have trouble believing that there was danger for the duration of the shutdown - because even in disruption, 99% of people are reasonable..

Yes one per cent is like 1 person with a knife and one member of with none and possible DEAD.

sheff1 · 22 Dec 2019

Ferret said:
Do a dispatcher’s job for a month and let me know how you get on without shouting. I’ll give you an hour, two at most.

The shouters at Piccadilly are not dispatchers. They are bouncer types who shout for the sake of it. Targeted shouting by properly trained staff when people are putting themselves, or others, in immediate danger is a different thing altogether.

I do, however, note that some posters have said the shouters are no more. I have deliberately avoided P13 at Piccadilly for the duration of the Xmas markets - I will be interested to see what it is like in the New Year. If the continual unecessary shouting has, indeed, ceased that will definitely be an improvement.

Mathew S · 22 Dec 2019

sheff1 said:
I do, however, note that some posters have said the shouters are no more. I have deliberately avoided P13 at Piccadilly for the duration of the Xmas markets - I will be interested to see what it is like in the New Year. If the continual unecessary shouting has, indeed, ceased that will definitely be an improvement.

I don't think "the shouters are no more" so much as I don't recognise what everyone's on about. I've never heard any of the staff shout on Pl 13/14, other than one very necessary "stand back" from a dispatcher as someone tried to board a moving train. Raised voices to be heard over the din where passengers are ignoring the announcements, certainly, but always polite and never what I would describe as shouting.

Djgr · 22 Dec 2019

Mathew S said:
I don't think "the shouters are no more" so much as I don't recognise what everyone's on about. I've never heard any of the staff shout on Pl 13/14, other than one very necessary "stand back" from a dispatcher as someone tried to board a moving train. Raised voices to be heard over the din where passengers are ignoring the announcements, certainly, but always polite and never what I would describe as shouting.

Well clearly some others on this thread (including me) have a different view/experience to you.

tpjm · 22 Dec 2019

Kimi said:
My point is that a crowd is dangerous to itself - as per Bethnal Green, my other example - not specifically the behaviour that led to it. Heck I have no idea how busy it even was at Vic at that point...

It’s been discussed further up thread that the gate line was still in operation. There was no high density crowd as you describe as otherwise the station would have been closed to customers / evacuated. Dispatchers taking themselves out of the environment does not result in a situation as you have suggested. My platform team were still on the ground, as were the Northern staff managing the stairs and the gateline.

Anybody who suggests that the punters were okay to threaten and behave in the way they did need to reconsider. Nothing excuses this behaviour. I don’t care if all the trains were cancelled. It’s never acceptable to take out your frustration on a member of staff when the are in the same position as you.

Robin Edwards · 22 Dec 2019

tpjm said:
Nothing excuses this behaviour. I don’t care if all the trains were cancelled. It’s never acceptable to take out your frustration on a member of staff when the are in the same position as you.

I absolutely agree however I would expand slightly to "It’s never acceptable to take out your frustration on a member of staff or customer when they are in the same position as you."

Mathew S · 22 Dec 2019

Djgr said:
Well clearly some others on this thread (including me) have a different view/experience to you.

The thing is, I fail to see how you can. I use those platforms at least four times a week, often more than that, especially the last few weeks. Generally in rush hour, and almost always when the agency staff are on duty. It's implausible that this regular 'shouting' could be taking place and that I wouldn't have heard it.

As I said earlier, firm, raised voices are not shouting and are entirely appropriate to the job of managing a large crowd of people in a hazardous environment. Especially when some of those people seen to find it impossible to obey a simple instruction to, for example, stand behind a line, use all the doors, let people off trains, and stop smoking.

Frankly, I think the restraint and politenes shown by the staff having to deal with the obnoxious ignorance and self-entitlement shown by some of the passengers on those platforms is admirable.

talltim · 22 Dec 2019

Mogster said:
Don’t have a problem with raised voices, I know it’s 2019 but sometimes people need shouting at...

Couldn’t there be dedicated platform staff dispatching and separate staff tasked with providing information? Especially at peak times?

EMR have issued platform staff with hi vis vests. Some say (to paraphrase) “I’m happy to help”, others say “safety critical staff, I’m happy to help, but please don’t distract me when I’m dispatching a train”

Mathew S · 22 Dec 2019

talltim said:
EMR have issued platform staff with hi vis vests. Some say (to paraphrase) “I’m happy to help”, others say “safety critical staff, I’m happy to help, but please don’t distract me when I’m dispatching a train”

Excellent idea.

Bletchleyite · 22 Dec 2019

Meerkat said:
I disagree. Why is a train different from a pub or a football match in terms of security staff?

Because for most people train journeys are not exciting like football matches (so you don't get the same crowd emotions) and not everyone is drunk. OK, on a Friday and Saturday evening they are, I suppose, and on those occasions alone "rentathugs" may be justified. But not on a weekday evening at 5:30pm.

Emotions are running high on Northern because Northern are grossly incompetent. This root cause needs to be addressed.

Bletchleyite · 22 Dec 2019

Bantamzen said:
Oh there are serious problems with the planning at Northern its true, but my point is very simple. I understand that punters will get fed up and angry, I've been there myself. But there is zero excuse for threatening a member of staff because of the failings of their managers. Zero excuse.

But humans are animals, and when you wind them up that much by being so insanely awful this is going to happen whether anyone likes it or not (and I hope nobody actually does like it). It is not OK, but to suggest that treating those passengers even more like cattle by way of heavy handed security guards is just wrong. The whole thing smacks of contempt for passengers.

The root cause needs to be addressed, by introducing a timetable that can be operated with 95%+ punctuality and reliability, and when it is, the problem will by and large go away.

Security staff/additional BTP are just treating symptoms.

_toommm_ · 22 Dec 2019

faltskog36abba said:
I was in Victoria on Saturday 21st of this month and every train was delayed and some cancelled. The Chester train was on the departure board as waiting on platform one, [Which is bizarre as its the wrong direction]. Then an announcement that its been cancelled-Then a rail employee was walking along platform three telling passengers its on platform five?.

I don't suppose it was the 19:00ish you were waiting for? If so that was an absolute shambles with the set swap they did.

mrcaa · 22 Dec 2019

Mathew S said:
The thing is, I fail to see how you can. I use those platforms at least four times a week, often more than that, especially the last few weeks. Generally in rush hour, and almost always when the agency staff are on duty. It's implausible that this regular 'shouting' could be taking place and that I wouldn't have heard it.

As I said earlier, firm, raised voices are not shouting and are entirely appropriate to the job of managing a large crowd of people in a hazardous environment. Especially when some of those people seen to find it impossible to obey a simple instruction to, for example, stand behind a line, use all the doors, let people off trains, and stop smoking.

Frankly, I think the restraint and politenes shown by the staff having to deal with the obnoxious ignorance and self-entitlement shown by some of the passengers on those platforms is admirable.

Having caught the train from platform 14 around 5pm for the last month I can say they are certainly still there. All the regular passengers seem to have got the message though and are already behind the red line.

I think the problem is new travellers who don’t know what the red line means. Everyone knows what the yellow line means but the red line doesn’t have an intuitive purpose. Some of the staff seem to have an “if I have to tell you again...” tone of voice when they’re actually telling those people for the first time which seems to get people’s backs up. It even does mine sometimes and it’s not even aimed at me. It does make the experience more unpleasant but I don’t know what the solution is without putting up large signs which passengers probably still won’t read.

Mathew S · 22 Dec 2019

mrcaa said:
Having caught the train from platform 14 around 5pm for the last month I can say they are certainly still there. All the regular passengers seem to have got the message though and are already behind the red line.

I think the problem is new travellers who don’t know what the red line means. Everyone knows what the yellow line means but the red line doesn’t have an intuitive purpose. Some of the staff seem to have an “if I have to tell you again...” tone of voice when they’re actually telling those people for the first time which seems to get people’s backs up. It even does mine sometimes and it’s not even aimed at me. It does make the experience more unpleasant but I don’t know what the solution is without putting up large signs which passengers probably still won’t read.

The thing is, there are signs there already. And regular announcements explaining the system. I really do feel for the staff - it must be immensely frustrating when customers don't read the signage, and don't listen to the announcements.

The answer, as we've all said on here so many times, is to build 2 more platforms, and invest in getting the timetable to a place where it actually works. But, in the meantime, I agree... I've no idea what else can be done either.

mrcaa · 23 Dec 2019

Mathew S said:
The thing is, there are signs there already. And regular announcements explaining the system. I really do feel for the staff - it must be immensely frustrating when customers don't read the signage, and don't listen to the announcements.

The answer, as we've all said on here so many times, is to build 2 more platforms, and invest in getting the timetable to a place where it actually works. But, in the meantime, I agree... I've no idea what else can be done either.

I‘m sure there are signs but they can’t be too prominent as I can’t picture them in my head. I feel like it mentions it on the new displays in the lounge but I’m wondering if I’m just imagining that. And I can’t remember hearing the announcer saying it either, even if they did. I guess if it’s not sticking in my head after going experiencing it over 20 times in the last month then it’s not surprising that infrequent travellers haven’t got the message.

I do feel for the staff too having to repeat the same message over and over again but I guess you just need to hire people who can do that without getting frustrated so there’s no chance of them escalating an already tense situation. It’s going to be a long time until 15/16 materialise, if ever, so I fear things are only going to get worse before then.

philthetube · 23 Dec 2019

Grumpy Git said:
I've only used Victoria station once in the last 30 years, one Sunday a year ago.

There was severe disruption and the on platform, Northern staff were giving us no information. After doing the Hokey-Cokey over the footbridge twice with luggage I asked on of them how the hell I was supposed to know when I could get a train to the airport and he threw a complete wobbly. He should have been fired on the spot, he was a disgrace.

So you went in aggressively and started by saying how the hell, probably intimidating the staff member who you now feel should be sacked

This says it all.

Stigy · 23 Dec 2019

philthetube said:
So you went in aggressively and started by saying how the hell, probably intimidating the staff member who you now feel should be sacked

This says it all.

Although I don’t agree that staff should be abused or have to put up with abuse, saying “How the hell...” or words to that effect when you’ve been pushed from pillar to post is a completely natural reaction. Staff shouldn’t then fight fire with fire. They’re in a customer facing job after all. Staff should always be assertive, but it’s a fine line between that and aggressive.

LowLevel · 23 Dec 2019

Shouting on platforms (though not in the manner of the Man Picc Mafia) has been a thing since time immemorial and will I'm sure continue to be. I reserve it for people doing something particularly stupid because it's not expected and provokes an immediate reaction. The consequences of not following said directions can be severe - only last week someone was lucky to get away with losing their fingers having ended up down the side of a departing Voyager at Derby, having ignored the dispatcher shouting at them in their attempts to board.

I do however follow it up with a smile and a thumbs up or a thank you depending on how far away the person is.

jumble · 23 Dec 2019

Parham Wood said:
I have to step in here Bletchleyite and say that there is a difference between any deficiencies in the mental health service provided by the NHS (which does need improving in general) and the abuse staff receive from patients in all front line departments. People with mental health issues are unstable and can flip at any time, some are inherently aggressive both physically and or verbally. NHS staff do have training how to recognise in advance signs that someone is turning aggressive and what to do for their own safety and to try to calm things down.

Unfortunately this concept of training is no longer a universal rule
There is a big shortage of CPNs (Community psychiatric nurses) and what is happening quite recently on the ground is that some patients who ought to be seen by specialists are now referred to practice nurses in the GP surgery who have no specialist training whatever and the nurses have to rely on their experience to deal with any issues.
It is really bad if someone who is mentally unstable and not on the GP list brings in a child who is as the surgery have no pre warning of potential issues.

Bletchleyite · 23 Dec 2019

Stigy said:
Although I don’t agree that staff should be abused or have to put up with abuse, saying “How the hell...” or words to that effect when you’ve been pushed from pillar to post is a completely natural reaction. Staff shouldn’t then fight fire with fire. They’re in a customer facing job after all. Staff should always be assertive, but it’s a fine line between that and aggressive.

And it wouldn't have happened at all if the service was up to scratch.

KevinTurvey · 23 Dec 2019

Just looking at RTT and its only 10:30 - there have been 14 cancellations already at Victoria. (Mostly TPE)
So its not going to be a good day for lots of people. For many, this will be one of the few times a year they may take the train.
This whole Manchester corridor needs sorting rapidly, it is as important if not more so than Crossrail, HS2 etc as it impacts a huge number of towns and cities.

Platforms 4-6 need a rebuild or complete makeover. I feel sorry for the people who have to work and wait there.

Mathew S · 23 Dec 2019

mrcaa said:
I‘m sure there are signs but they can’t be too prominent as I can’t picture them in my head. I feel like it mentions it on the new displays in the lounge but I’m wondering if I’m just imagining that. And I can’t remember hearing the announcer saying it either, even if they did. I guess if it’s not sticking in my head after going experiencing it over 20 times in the last month then it’s not surprising that infrequent travellers haven’t got the message.

I do feel for the staff too having to repeat the same message over and over again but I guess you just need to hire people who can do that without getting frustrated so there’s no chance of them escalating an already tense situation. It’s going to be a long time until 15/16 materialise, if ever, so I fear things are only going to get worse before then.

The staff don't show any sign of frustration that's apparent to me (despite I'm sure feeling it).

On signs and announcements, the first bank of PIS screens at the bottom of the stairs on 13 & 14 explains the system, and there are literally announcements every two to three minutes. More often at busy times. I really don't understand how you - or anyone else for that matter - can possibly have not noticed them.

There's also manual announcements with every train, and reminders as needed from platform staff 'face to face'. Really, there's no excuse for anyone not to know.

The new displays in the lounge are the ones above the 'archway' above the top of the stairs. Relatively recent, and displaying trains in a (I'm paraphrasing), "Now, Next, In a few minutes," format.

sprunt · 23 Dec 2019

Mathew S said:
On signs and announcements, the first bank of PIS screens at the bottom of the stairs on 13 & 14 explains the system, and there are literally announcements every two to three minutes. More often at busy times. I really don't understand how you - or anyone else for that matter - can possibly have not noticed them.

The trouble is, if I go to a station for the first time, I don't expect to have to find instructions for how to catch a train from that station. I expect to look at the departure board, identify the platform my train's departing from and whether there are any delays, and assuming there are no delays I'll proceed to that platform. People who don't travel regularly - people heading to the airport, for example - aren't going to look for special instructions for a particular platform as they enter it. As for announcements, there's been plenty of comment on here about the way that the surfeit of announcements leads to people just not listening to them.

Staff down tools at Manchester Victoria following assault 19/12/2019

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