"Connectional" bus routes that aren't really (and rail examples)

Bletchleyite · 23 Dec 2019

paul1609 said:
Down here on Romney Marsh as a consequence at a remote bus stop near Lydd Army camp the 102 bus from Rye to Lydd (for Dover) suddenly becomes the 102 to Folkestone & Dover and vice-versa. Unfortunately none of the online journey planners can cope with the concept of a bus changing enroute so you are advised to alight and wait an hour for the connection an hour later.

This piece of stupidity is a result of the "workaround to the EU rules" to avoid the need for a tachograph on longer bus routes. Hopefully when we have left the EU it can be repealed and a bit of sense can return.

But even without those rules there are still two separate timetabled services that operate from Ormskirk to Preston and Preston to Blackpool South...that are always the same train, but not advertised as such, so the planner says you wait at Preston for an hour...

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56131 EllColl · 23 Dec 2019

Ormskirk and Kirby are curiosities with gap in rails so entirely opposite coming from Liverpool Merseyrail.

Two examples in Scotland are 253 Borders Buses Edinburgh-Berwick with Grantshouse a cluster of houses just off A1! And the Stagecoach Western X77 at Fenwick coming on and off M77 motorway and southbound no safe place to stop.let alone marked stop.either direction shambolic!

darloscott · 23 Dec 2019

There are hundreds of examples of these routes around the country that are split purely to avoid using tachographs and drivers on EU hours, pushing the resource cost up. The two express routes between Middlesbrough and Newcastle are both split for example, Go North East's X9/X10 which are split at Peterlee or Dalton Park shopping centre, and Arriva's X12 which runs via, and is split at, Durham. Another good example is Arriva's lengthy express to the coast X93 Middlesbrough to Scarborough which is split twice, in Guisborough and again at Whitby.

carlberry · 23 Dec 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Down here on Romney Marsh as a consequence at a remote bus stop near Lydd Army camp the 102 bus from Rye to Lydd (for Dover) suddenly becomes the 102 to Folkestone & Dover and vice-versa. Unfortunately none of the online journey planners can cope with the concept of a bus changing enroute so you are advised to alight and wait an hour for the connection an hour later.
This piece of stupidity is a result of the "workaround to the EU rules" to avoid the need for a tachograph on longer bus routes. Hopefully when we have left the EU it can be repealed and a bit of sense can return.

But even without those rules there are still two separate timetabled services that operate from Ormskirk to Preston and Preston to Blackpool South...that are always the same train, but not advertised as such, so the planner says you wait at Preston for an hour...

Surely the stupidity is that the travel planner hasn't been given the correct information. It copes fine with most of the split routes so it's just a case of putting the correct information in.
I suspect that amending rules causing issues for public transport timetables is going to be fairly far down the list of government business.

Man of Kent · 23 Dec 2019

carlberry said:
Surely the stupidity is that the travel planner hasn't been given the correct information. It copes fine with most of the split routes so it's just a case of putting the correct information in.

Quite right. More puzzingly, the original example quoted works perfectly fine in both the Stagecoach and Traveline Southeast journey planners, in both directions.

Jordan Adam · 23 Dec 2019

Stagecoach Bluebird 10 is split in 5 sections... Aberdeen - Inverurie, Inverurie - Huntly, Huntly - Elgin, Elgin - Nairn & Nairn - Inverness. Although most journey planners cope fine and the online timetable shows it accurately you can see Bustimes.org is a bit if a cluster! - https://bustimes.org/services/10-inverness-aberdeen

Perhaps one better though, prior to the route being cut back the 35 was split in to 7 sections! Robert Gordon's University - Aberdeen, Aberdeen - Oldmeldrum, Oldmeldrum - Macduff, Macduff - Buckie, Buckie - Elgin, Elgin - Nairn, Nairn - Inverness. Although the route has been cut back to just cover 4 of those sections you can see Bustimes still struggles to show it correctly! https://bustimes.org/services/35-elgin-aberdeen

There's countless more examples in Scotland specifically, however those to me are the most notable pair.

radamfi · 23 Dec 2019

There are lots of 50 km+ services in the EU that don't split. There may be some readers who assume that it is impossible to use tachographs on longer distance local bus services.

Stan Drews · 23 Dec 2019

radamfi said:
There are lots of 50 km+ services in the EU that don't split. There may be some readers who assume that it is impossible to use tachographs on longer distance local bus services.

It’s nothing to do with being possible/impossible, but more do to with the extra operating and administrative expense of using digital tachographs, and maintaining appropriate digital compliance.

carlberry · 23 Dec 2019

radamfi said:
There are lots of 50 km+ services in the EU that don't split. There may be some readers who assume that it is impossible to use tachographs on longer distance local bus services.

The tacho bit is a part however the big expense is a separate roster with drivers under different rules.

NorthOxonian · 24 Dec 2019

My personal favourite example (which may be unique) is the 620 and 69 in Gloucestershire. That route has two different numbers but runs right through, with quite a few passengers using it across the connection.

The 620 runs from Bath to Yate and Chipping Sodbury. Then, just outside Chipping Sodbury it becomes the 69 and runs to Tetbury, and eventually Stroud. It's a very scenic route with some great country sections. The reason for the number change is probably down to subsidies, with some of the route subsidised by South Gloucestershire Unitary and the rest Gloucestershire County, though I don't know why they can't have the same number for both sections.

It's impossible to get an itinerary for it on most travel apps, who assume the connection is too tight. But it is advertised as going right through to Stroud at Bath Bus Station though (though not the digital boards, only on the door to the stand). Unsurprisingly, very few people use it fully end to end, it mainly serves Bath to Yate, Yate to Tetbury, and Tetbury to Stroud (and vice versa). Its usefulness is hampered by its low frequency, but I was surprised at the fairly heavy loading, especially from Bath to Yate.

Bletchleyite · 24 Dec 2019

carlberry said:
Surely the stupidity is that the travel planner hasn't been given the correct information. It copes fine with most of the split routes so it's just a case of putting the correct information in.

The stupidity is in the workaround.

Either it is safe to operate long distance bus services under domestic rules, in which case it should be permitted, or it is not safe, in which case it should not be permitted. The thing that clearly matters with regard to safety is who is driving the bus and how long they are doing it for, not what it says on the front.

A semi-official workaround which does nothing other than confuse passengers is an utter joke, and does the EU and UK Government no favours whatsoever.

158756 · 24 Dec 2019

Bletchleyite said:
The stupidity is in the workaround.

Either it is safe to operate long distance bus services under domestic rules, in which case it should be permitted, or it is not safe, in which case it should not be permitted. The thing that clearly matters with regard to safety is who is driving the bus and how long they are doing it for, not what it says on the front.

A semi-official workaround which does nothing other than confuse passengers is an utter joke, and does the EU and UK Government no favours whatsoever.

The workaround situation is silly - if it's not safe it should be banned, but the vast majority of operators manage to use it without confusing any passengers - indeed Stagecoach's own timetable advertises the 102 as a through service from Dover to Rye, it just sounds like the journey planning software is confused.

PG · 24 Dec 2019

Bletchleyite said:
The stupidity is in the workaround.

Either it is safe to operate long distance bus services under domestic rules, in which case it should be permitted, or it is not safe, in which case it should not be permitted. The thing that clearly matters with regard to safety is who is driving the bus and how long they are doing it for, not what it says on the front.

A semi-official workaround which does nothing other than confuse passengers is an utter joke, and does the EU and UK Government no favours whatsoever.

I can't give a date for when this practice started nor what the catalyst was for its wholesale adoption by many operators throughout the UK.

I have a vague recollection that some interpretation of the rules concerning operation of local (and not so local) bus services was flagged up which then caused a rash of hitherto through services to be advertised publicly as connecting services.
In most cases they were operated by the same vehicle and driver continuously thus rather (excuse the pun) driving a coach and horses through the EU and domestic drivers hours regulations.

Can anyone shed any light on the when and why?

It does seem that the unions don't seem to have campaigned on this fudge on drivers hours which is also puzzling

radamfi · 24 Dec 2019

PG said:
I can't give a date for when this practice started nor what the catalyst was for its wholesale adoption by many operators throughout the UK.

I have a vague recollection that some interpretation of the rules concerning operation of local (and not so local) bus services was flagged up which then caused a rash of hitherto through services to be advertised publicly as connecting services.
In most cases they were operated by the same vehicle and driver continuously thus rather (excuse the pun) driving a coach and horses through the EU and domestic drivers hours regulations.

Can anyone shed any light on the when and why?

It does seem that the unions don't seem to have campaigned on this fudge on drivers hours which is also puzzling

I remember a BBC news story on TV and probably online as well where they interviewed bus drivers in Cumbria, because of the number of long bus routes there, who thought that the then new law would be good for their safety. This was before bus companies decided to cheat. In the meantime, you can complain to your local operator about it and tell them you won't use any services using the loophole on principle.

PG · 24 Dec 2019

radamfi said:
I remember a BBC news story on TV and probably online as well where they interviewed bus drivers in Cumbria, because of the number of long bus routes there, who thought that the then new law would be good for their safety. This was before bus companies decided to cheat. In the meantime, you can complain to your local operator about it and tell them you won't use any services using the loophole on principle.

That'd be a empty threat given my local operator is the only operator...

If I was in a position to withdraw my custom I rather suspect the response to any complaints along the lines of your suggestion would be that services would be reduced and/or fares increased.

radamfi · 24 Dec 2019

PG said:
That'd be a empty threat given my local operator is the only operator...

If I was in a position to withdraw my custom I rather suspect the response to any complaints along the lines of your suggestion would be that services would be reduced and/or fares increased.

Cars, taxis and (e-)bikes are alternatives. As is moving house, ideally moving to a country with decent public transport.

MarlowDonkey · 24 Dec 2019

PG said:
Can anyone shed any light on the when and why?

There was a Europe wide agreement regarding working hours and conditions for cross-Border bus and coach services. National bus services were perhaps not intended to be affected, but the UK government implemented a definition of a bus service as one which was under 50 miles in length. I believe it would have been fully in accord with the international agreement to define a national bus service as one wholly within the UK regardless of route length.

carlberry · 24 Dec 2019

PG said:
I can't give a date for when this practice started nor what the catalyst was for its wholesale adoption by many operators throughout the UK.

I have a vague recollection that some interpretation of the rules concerning operation of local (and not so local) bus services was flagged up which then caused a rash of hitherto through services to be advertised publicly as connecting services.
In most cases they were operated by the same vehicle and driver continuously thus rather (excuse the pun) driving a coach and horses through the EU and domestic drivers hours regulations.

Can anyone shed any light on the when and why?

It does seem that the unions don't seem to have campaigned on this fudge on drivers hours which is also puzzling

The main reason why the unions don't care (aside from not having as much power anymore) is that the difference between the two sets of rules isn't that great. However one big difference is it requires 'EU rules' drivers to use tachographs and face fines if they don't use them properly, most bus drivers don't want to start playing with tachos.
Several services did run under EU rules however most reverted back because of the additional admin and costs. Then the DoT/VOSA/DVSA/whoever issued a reinterpretation of the rules which is what most companies now use. i.e. the government has agreed that this 'loophole' is within the law. The drivers still have to obey domestic hour rules (which aren't some unsafe wild west arrangement) it's just between two points more than 50km apart whereas it should be between points less than 50km apart.
In reality if it's felt that driving over 32m in a straight line is dangerous and requires a different law, why is it suddenly safer if you do the same hours and same mileage but just cover the same boring bit of road more often?

Geordie driver · 24 Dec 2019

Excuse any typos I am doing this on an ancient phone.
I have worked EU and UK hours driving pcv in the UK. Drivers don't mind using tachos and the idea they would rather drive an extra hour and have a shorter break is odd to say the least .That last hour is a killer!. I suspect the rules were drawn up by civil servants and nodded through by politicians who have no idea how the industry works. Long-distance is a piece of cake compared to local service, the rules are the wrong way round. I have mentioned this before, imagine getting on your bus at 06 00 and knowing you can't go to the toilet until 11 30?

route101 · 24 Dec 2019

56131 EllColl said:
Ormskirk and Kirby are curiosities with gap in rails so entirely opposite coming from Liverpool Merseyrail.

Two examples in Scotland are 253 Borders Buses Edinburgh-Berwick with Grantshouse a cluster of houses just off A1! And the Stagecoach Western X77 at Fenwick coming on and off M77 motorway and southbound no safe place to stop.let alone marked stop.either direction shambolic!

I wondered about the x77 stop at Fenwick . I thought it was under the bridge ,M77.

TheGrandWazoo · 24 Dec 2019

Geordie driver said:
Excuse any typos I am doing this on an ancient phone.
I have worked EU and UK hours driving pcv in the UK. Drivers don't mind using tachos and the idea they would rather drive an extra hour and have a shorter break is odd to say the least .That last hour is a killer!. I suspect the rules were drawn up by civil servants and nodded through by politicians who have no idea how the industry works. Long-distance is a piece of cake compared to local service, the rules are the wrong way round. I have mentioned this before, imagine getting on your bus at 06 00 and knowing you can't go to the toilet until 11 30?

The domestic rules have been around for many years.

EU rules came in essentially for coach and express services on the continent. Long distance “stage carriage” bus services were not a consideration really as, in much of Europe, they don’t really exist because they didn’t lose most of their rail services!!

People will point to having EU rules across the piece and I can see the argument. However, it does add in significant cost and who picks up the tab is the tricky part!

peterblue · 24 Dec 2019

Geordie driver said:
I have mentioned this before, imagine getting on your bus at 06 00 and knowing you can't go to the toilet until 11 30?

Is a short toilet break not allowed each return journey to e.g. the local bus station? That seems to be the case for round here. There's usually enough layover time.

Simon75 · 24 Dec 2019

Arriva Midlands (Shrewsbury garage)
Operate 64 Shrewsbury to Market Drayton then changes as 164 Market Drayton to Hanley

Geordie driver · 24 Dec 2019

Not all services visit bus stations, circular in particular, its not common but it should be illegal. The company I worked for would book you for going to the toilet if you were running late. I have even seen articles in local press calling for " flexibility" as five and a half hours isn't long enough.

carlberry · 24 Dec 2019

MarlowDonkey said:
There was a Europe wide agreement regarding working hours and conditions for cross-Border bus and coach services. National bus services were perhaps not intended to be affected, but the UK government implemented a definition of a bus service as one which was under 50 miles in length. I believe it would have been fully in accord with the international agreement to define a national bus service as one wholly within the UK regardless of route length.

The law came in on 1st Jan 2008 and the rule is 50km (31miles) and is an EU rule which all the national governments signed up to. National governments can apply it below 50km if they want. The UK could have tried to get an opt out for it before it was passed to stop it applying to it's bus services but it didn't.

carlberry · 24 Dec 2019

peterblue said:
Is a short toilet break not allowed each return journey to e.g. the local bus station? That seems to be the case for round here. There's usually enough layover time.

Quite often now there aren't even toilets available in the local bus station and plenty of places don't have bus stations anymore. Again it's the kind of thing where the drivers on the more intense local services get the short end of the straw.

Megafuss · 24 Dec 2019

I genuinely don't see the problem with operators doing this as it helps keeps long distance routes viable.

What is the difference between a driver doing the X5 service between Bedford to Oxford and back to Bedford for a piece of work (with legal splits at Milton Keynes and Buckingham) and a driver doing 4 to 5 hrs driving on a number of interworked town/interurban services?

Bletchleyite · 24 Dec 2019

carlberry said:
Quite often now there aren't even toilets available in the local bus station and plenty of places don't have bus stations anymore. Again it's the kind of thing where the drivers on the more intense local services get the short end of the straw.

Indeed, but this has little to do with the length of the route - no reason they couldn't have a mid-journey break, or indeed swap drivers at multiple points along the route as the likes of the X5 always have even before this silliness.

There is no logic whatsoever on it being based on the length of the nominal route as this has no bearing on safety whatsoever. What would make more sense would be, say, to limit actual driving in one go without a break away from the vehicle to an hour or 90 minutes or whatever.

Anyway, hopefully the industry will, after Brexit, lobby to get this particularly stupid rule removed.

carlberry · 24 Dec 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Indeed, but this has little to do with the length of the route - no reason they couldn't have a mid-journey break, or indeed swap drivers at multiple points along the route as the likes of the X5 always have even before this silliness.

There is no logic whatsoever on it being based on the length of the nominal route as this has no bearing on safety whatsoever. What would make more sense would be, say, to limit actual driving in one go without a break away from the vehicle to an hour or 90 minutes or whatever.

Anyway, hopefully the industry will, after Brexit, lobby to get this particularly stupid rule removed.

I suspect the bus industry will be near the back of the queue with lobbying after Brexit and, given the protections that have already been removed recently, it's more likely that somebody will be lobbying to water down the drivers hours regs more generally.

Bletchleyite · 24 Dec 2019

carlberry said:
I suspect the bus industry will be near the back of the queue with lobbying after Brexit and, given the protections that have already been removed recently, it's more likely that somebody will be lobbying to water down the drivers hours regs more generally.

I could potentially see "domestic hours" applying to anything domestic, perhaps?

"Connectional" bus routes that aren't really (and rail examples)

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