Abellio will be desposed of just as all the improvements have been delivered. The new operator will be lauded. Doesn't seem fair they cant reap the benefits of there investments. Saying that, not much will change if the infrastructure doesn't improve and no TOC can do anything about that.
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Abellio Scotrail Franchise to end early in March 2022
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LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
As I understand it, as part of the 3-year extension negotiation, Abellio made a bid essentially on direct award terms to continue with the franchise which involved a higher subsidy (not surprising if they are losing money on the current deal).
SG has declined to accept this bid, saying the increased subsidy does not offer "value for money", a typical meaningless government term, and triggered a competition.
So it's very similar to the situation where Stagecoach walked away from a direct award extension at SWT after DfT refused their bid, preferring to rebid competitively.
Unfortunately they lost that competition to First/MTR (not that it has been much of a prize for First/MTR).
The only difference going forward is that SG can invite public sector bids to compete with any private sector bid for Scotrail.
With a background that HMG (UK) is planning to change the franchising rules fairly soon anyway.
It's entirely possible that private sector firms will decline to bid for Scotrail in the current climate.
Stagecoach is perhaps one firm which might be tempted (if the contract terms are right, which is a big ask after recent events).
SG has declined to accept this bid, saying the increased subsidy does not offer "value for money", a typical meaningless government term, and triggered a competition.
So it's very similar to the situation where Stagecoach walked away from a direct award extension at SWT after DfT refused their bid, preferring to rebid competitively.
Unfortunately they lost that competition to First/MTR (not that it has been much of a prize for First/MTR).
The only difference going forward is that SG can invite public sector bids to compete with any private sector bid for Scotrail.
With a background that HMG (UK) is planning to change the franchising rules fairly soon anyway.
It's entirely possible that private sector firms will decline to bid for Scotrail in the current climate.
Stagecoach is perhaps one firm which might be tempted (if the contract terms are right, which is a big ask after recent events).
Altnabreac
Established Member
Ultimately Abellio just made too many mistakes to allow Scottish Government to consider extending the contract. There was strong political pressure not to extend the contract so Michael Matheson would have needed to be sure that things were going to improve in order to instruct an extension:
- HST rollout is improving but still well behind schedule. Partially (Mainly?) not Abellios fault but adds to the impression of failing to get a grip.
- Staff Morale definitely seems to have been an issue beyond just the usual suspects who think nationalisation is the answer to all ills.
- SQUIRE performance seems to have continued to struggle. Its a tick box exercise but the targets are possible to meet with management desire and there didn't seem to be a positive direction of travel.
- Penny pinching attitude, the story about not allowing stations to have toilet roll etc won't help
- Scottish Government lost confidence that Abellio would ask for the extension. Nothing worse politically than offering them 3 years (and getting politically attacked for not "nationaisling") only for Abellio to subsequently refuse the extension.
lordbusiness
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I think Scotrail was always going to be a poisoned challice for abellio- not being 'Scottish', some over optimistic elements of the franchise bid , unrealistic expectations by abellio, the SG and public in general, infrastructure issues, problems with new fleets and refurbs along with a fair slice of bad luck have all created the situation. The route cause being, as is usual with the UK rail industry,:
The industry promising something it's not able to deliver.
Unrealistic expectations of the public and government.
It will be interesting to see how this goes in the long term, it's been pretty obvious that greater Government control has been the long term goal of the SG. It's pretty obvious where it will end up- Will they deliver a better service?
In the short term it will fascinating to see what abellio do for the rest of their tenure, will they asset strip, reduce/stop spending on projects and cut costs by laying off superfluous staff etc.
The industry promising something it's not able to deliver.
Unrealistic expectations of the public and government.
It will be interesting to see how this goes in the long term, it's been pretty obvious that greater Government control has been the long term goal of the SG. It's pretty obvious where it will end up- Will they deliver a better service?
In the short term it will fascinating to see what abellio do for the rest of their tenure, will they asset strip, reduce/stop spending on projects and cut costs by laying off superfluous staff etc.
Deltic1961
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Not according to Alex on the radio. They're going to continue improving and delivering a brilliant service until the very last day.
delt1c
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wonder if this decision will affect the 153 conversions, hope not.
GrimShady
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Same claptrap that VTEC was spouting even till the very last day...they even had the cheek to send an email congratulating themselves. Delusional at best.
Deltic1961
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One thing that's peeing customers off (and has done for some time) is the length of time they have to queue for tickets on arrival at Glasgow Central.
Not everyone can get tickets in advance (broken machines, no conductor on board due to congestion) and Twitter is full of people complaining they've had to stand 30 minutes with one member of staff working.
Surely that's an easy fix but it seems not for Abellio.
Not everyone can get tickets in advance (broken machines, no conductor on board due to congestion) and Twitter is full of people complaining they've had to stand 30 minutes with one member of staff working.
Surely that's an easy fix but it seems not for Abellio.
Altnabreac
Established Member
Lets be honest 95%+ of the time these people could have bought a ticket before they boarded. For Central High Level services the number of stations without a ticket machine is very very small. Ticket Machine reliability is pretty good and people just don't use them.
On the DOO services especially the Ticket Inspectors do usually get through the train except at the busiest times.
Overall therefore my sympathy for these customers is limited.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If there is one thing Hynes is good at it is bluster. So this should be no surprise.
Scotrail314209
Established Member
a lot of the issues might be the fact that most of them are card only. Before I got my bank card this was a particular issue for me as almost all of the stations on the South Side are unstaffed, meaning they are card only.
Southsider
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I have to admit I don’t have any numbers to back it up but many of the stations are staffed for a large part of the day; people just don’t bother trying to buy a ticket from the counter or machine. This increases the load on onboard staff so a queue at Central is the inevitable result, a little planning ahead by passengers would help. A group I would excuse are concession card holders as the machines don’t vend the appropriate ticket.
There are stations that are unstaffed and don't have ticket machines e.g. Kennishead. Services from these stations are often crowded on weekday mornings. It's been a serious problem for many years, but (from what I hear from my family) has got worse since Abellio took over since there seem to be fewer ticket sellers at Central so queues are often 15-30 mins.
Please remember that not everyone who uses the railway is a regular user - often (particularly poorer) people are using it for the odd trip in to hospital or to an appointment and unnecessary delays are extremely frustrating for them. It's worth bearing in mind those statistics which show that 40% of the population don't use the national network at all, and a further 25% make 4 or less journeys per year. Rail should be trying to make itself as accessible as possible to those who don't use it frequently.
Please remember that not everyone who uses the railway is a regular user - often (particularly poorer) people are using it for the odd trip in to hospital or to an appointment and unnecessary delays are extremely frustrating for them. It's worth bearing in mind those statistics which show that 40% of the population don't use the national network at all, and a further 25% make 4 or less journeys per year. Rail should be trying to make itself as accessible as possible to those who don't use it frequently.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
How many adults do not have any form of debit card in 2019?
A significant proportion of children are now paying with cards too.
Actually, ScotRail score an own goal with some of those Scheidt & Bachmann ticket machines - many of the outlying stations which previously took card and cash are now card only, and, there's still a number of products which can only be bought from a seller (concessions being a prominent one).
This isn't a new phenomenon, but, if you are on a 6 coach 156 on a stopper you can bet that the guard isn't getting through the whole train, therefore, it's almost certain you'll have a wait at Central - quite often the wait is actually for staff with ticketing equipment to be despatched to the platforms as the excess booths are often unstaffed. It is, as you say, a little less unlikely on a DOO service… however, that's neither here nor there.
More resource could help here, but, it's a tricky balancing act.
ScotRail have the ticket offices in the high and low level stations and Avanti (née Virgin) have the travel centre (as per RSP section 17 p28 and p43).
No, the OPRAF Franchise Director did it rather well, and quickly. It's the direct role of governments and civil servants where it goes wrong.
lordbusiness
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Very unlikely to see any increase in staffing levels in Scotrail for a while I suspect- more likely to be the opposite.
Any recruiting will be one out-one in, but only if the post is deemed essential to the business.
Any recruiting will be one out-one in, but only if the post is deemed essential to the business.
The TVMs, as I noted, don't retail the full range of tickets[1]… as for staffed stations, well, yes… however, out of the four staffed stations on that route, only two come close to providing a full days service.
Glasgow Central and East Kilbride cover the majority of the day (e.g. 0600-2325 Monday to Friday, variations at the weekend); however, the other two stations, Giffnock and Clarkston are 0640 - 1344 Monday to Saturday only, and, are single staffed during those times, so, are not necessarily retailing all of the time.
It's quite reasonable, therefore, to expect the opportunity to pay at the terminus if no other opportunity was available to purchase the ticket required for your journey.
[1] One particular example, again, is the Strathclyde concessionary tickets - they can only be purchased from a booking office, or, from a ticket seller (e.g. the guard, or, the sellers at the gateline/excess booths); they cannot be purchased on the TVMs, or, in advance. Another is the D50 tickets, where a similar restriction applies.
haggishunter
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There should be no need for the majority of people to use ticket offices, TVMs or buy from guards.
If the smart cards functioned without the absurd 4 hour delay - you can load a ticket onto a smart card with an iPhone or Android phone, but neither the website nor the app lets you buy a smart card ticket for a trip less than 4 hours in the future!
It’s absurd, so if you want to make a journey at short notice that involves ScotRail and the subway you’ve to go two ticket offices or two vending machines even with a smart card! The subway doesn’t even have contactless at ticket offices or vending machines, yet rfid gates.
The entire ticket arrangement in the SPT area is a shambles, the roundabout and zone card tickets not available on media that works on national rail and subway but valid on both. Can’t be bought from TVMs either.
The solution isn’t more vending machines it’s getting rid of the need for people to use them and putting the correct tech at the gates. Given it’s been in place for years why wasn’t the Oyster system rolled out across all large urban areas?
It should be possible to instantly add tickets to a smart card without going to a TVM or storing prepaid credit for shorter journeys or allowing contactless / phone payments to tap in or out. Suspect rail use would get quite a boost compared to the current faff for short journeys made at short notice. Ticketless travel would likely go down too!
If the smart cards functioned without the absurd 4 hour delay - you can load a ticket onto a smart card with an iPhone or Android phone, but neither the website nor the app lets you buy a smart card ticket for a trip less than 4 hours in the future!
It’s absurd, so if you want to make a journey at short notice that involves ScotRail and the subway you’ve to go two ticket offices or two vending machines even with a smart card! The subway doesn’t even have contactless at ticket offices or vending machines, yet rfid gates.
The entire ticket arrangement in the SPT area is a shambles, the roundabout and zone card tickets not available on media that works on national rail and subway but valid on both. Can’t be bought from TVMs either.
The solution isn’t more vending machines it’s getting rid of the need for people to use them and putting the correct tech at the gates. Given it’s been in place for years why wasn’t the Oyster system rolled out across all large urban areas?
It should be possible to instantly add tickets to a smart card without going to a TVM or storing prepaid credit for shorter journeys or allowing contactless / phone payments to tap in or out. Suspect rail use would get quite a boost compared to the current faff for short journeys made at short notice. Ticketless travel would likely go down too!
I arrived at Glasgow Central without a ticket as the machine at Hawkhead was not working. The train arrived at platform 12 and seeing a huge queue waiting for tickets I saw a train a platform 11 waiting to leave so I went to the guard on that train and bought a ticket from him.
I agree with the earlier poster that the 4 hour wait for an electronic ticket to be loaded is ridiculous. I don't understand the reason behind the timescale but maybe someone else knows why this is.
I agree with the earlier poster that the 4 hour wait for an electronic ticket to be loaded is ridiculous. I don't understand the reason behind the timescale but maybe someone else knows why this is.
The much advertised 'kids for a quid' promotion isn't available at TVMs which imeans the only choice is on the train or at destination. On the western end of the North Clyde line there is quite often only one tvm at the station which is mainly on the Glasgow bound platform. I'm sure a number of stations still don't have one at all.
Scotrail314209
Established Member
If the station is unstaffed and has no TVM, people may have no choice but to pay at the terminus, if the train is stopping quite frequently, the guard or TE may not have enough time to get through the train.
Altnabreac
Established Member
So I’ve checked the numbers and notwithstanding the people buying concession / other non ticket or who have no access to cards these are the numbers for ticket machine access in SPT area:
139 out of 184 stations (75%) have a Ticket Machine or a Ticket Office (or both).
Those 137 stations account for 95% of entries and exits in the SPT area (excluding the big 2 Glasgow stations, 97% including them).
There’s a few of the busier stations with no facilities that look like they could do with a ticket machine, especially those that are closer in to the termini like Dumbreck, Mosspark, Carmyle and Nitshill.
But in general those numbers and the volumes of queues at Glasgow Central do reflect that there are many people who could buy before boarding who are still not doing so.
139 out of 184 stations (75%) have a Ticket Machine or a Ticket Office (or both).
Those 137 stations account for 95% of entries and exits in the SPT area (excluding the big 2 Glasgow stations, 97% including them).
There’s a few of the busier stations with no facilities that look like they could do with a ticket machine, especially those that are closer in to the termini like Dumbreck, Mosspark, Carmyle and Nitshill.
But in general those numbers and the volumes of queues at Glasgow Central do reflect that there are many people who could buy before boarding who are still not doing so.
Scotrail314209
Established Member
I always buy before I board, however there have been times where I end up having to queue as I’ve boarded at a station that doesn’t have a TVM (like Ardrossan Town), and the TE hasn’t had a chance to get through due to the train being busy (very few occasions). I do agree that there could be more than one ticket seller though.
Highland37
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What if they don't want to?
(BTW this is well off-topic).
I for one am glad that Abellio are not having their contract extended. As per usual, the forecast HST my relatives are on has failed to turn up and is a knackered 170. Welcome to 1995.
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