3tph on North Downs Line

JonathanH · 6 Dec 2019

infobleep said:
Tonight was one of the few times where I delayed train on the North Downs Line was allowed to run to Gatwick Airport.

The train was the 18:31. It departed Reigate 10 minutes late and Redhill 21 minutes late. It arrived into Gatwick Airport 21 minutes late.

Given so many trains are not allowed to run so late to Gatwick Airport, how come this one got through?

It is noticeable that the services on the Thameslink route were already running with delays - maybe there is a bit more leeway in those circumstances.

Interestingly on RTT, there appears to have been consideration of using the unit off the 1804 from Reading (which sits at Redhill for the 2034 to Reading) as the 1943 from Redhill to Gatwick but appears they ran the 1831 from Reading through to Gatwick instead (as you reported).

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infobleep · 7 Dec 2019

JonathanH said:
It is noticeable that the services on the Thameslink route were already running with delays - maybe there is a bit more leeway in those circumstances.

Interestingly on RTT, there appears to have been consideration of using the unit off the 1804 from Reading (which sits at Redhill for the 2034 to Reading) as the 1943 from Redhill to Gatwick but appears they ran the 1831 from Reading through to Gatwick instead (as you reported).

Cheers for that.

Another unusual one this morning. The 7:34 Reading to Gatwick Airport was running with delays due to an accident at a level crossing. It was 3 minutes late at Reading and 9 from Guildford. It's a fast service to Gatwick Airport and today it stopped additionally at Shalford and Betchworth but none of the other small stations. The 8:04 was stopping at those stations though and the only stopping train before this, the 7:04, which was cancelled, isn't scheduled to call at Betchworth so it's not as if any preceeding services missed out Betchworth.

I can only assume they were stops added in at the request of a passenger but it does seem odd on the face of it.

Here is a screenshot of the depature:

The guard hadn't made any announcements to explain anything. Either that or our speakers are not working At least the train was allowed to run to Gatwick Airport but it did get held up for a short time outside that station.

Funnily enough I got this train as I felt I couldn't be certain if the train behind was likely to be on time, given that this train lost most of it's time on route. However the next train, an hour later, departed Guildford on time. Still better to be delayed early than delay when you need to be somewhere.

My limited attempts to get request stops added have usually ended up in failure but that might be due to being at unmanned stations and having to use help points. In the case I can think of, which was at Chilworth, someone decided to drive someone else to another station becuae it was taking ages for someone in the National Rail Enquiries call center to get back to us for some news of our request for a fast train to stop.

Also been unsuccessful at getting trains to wait at Redhill when they have started short. Even though we might only have needed another 1 or 2 minutes to catch said train. It can be seen why trains need to leave on time but adding in request stops also delays trains meaning also less chance of arriving on time.

Deepgreen · 18 Dec 2019

My local station is Betchworth and the former goods yard site has been cleared and quite a large working site set up. I initially thought this was as a base for the extensive re-fencing taking place nearby, but now notices have appeared at the station advising that the EB platform is being extended (the WB is already six cars), presumably to four cars. The EB starter has also recently been replaced with a single lens LED unit. It's been a long time since our little station has seen so much action! All we need now are the longer trains.

As a slight aside, the 1630 from Redhill was slightly delayed leaving Redhill today and, even before we left, the auto p.a. said we were at Reigate! Passengers tittered, but, when we got to Reigate, the announcement said we were at Betchworth and next stop was Dorking Deepdene. This was just at the moment that anyone boarding would only have heard that the next stop was Dorking - i.e. not stopping at Betchworth. Cue potential panic and delay to train while passengers try to check what's happening.

The auto announcements on the NDL frequently get out of sync. and it's very poor. On top of this information fragility, I have yet to hear any corrections being provided by the guard on any of these occasions. If these things happened only rarely, it would be understandable, but the frequency is just not good enough, and the failure by train staff to correct the errors is unforgivable.

The platform screen at Dorking Deepdene WB still frequently clears the train arriving or standing at the platform in favour of the following one, leaving people boarding or just arriving at the platform bemused. The screen at Betchworth WB always shows trains as being two minutes later than they actually are, but GWR, although claiming to understand how important good information is (in response to regular complaints), have failed to correct these anomalies for years.

Overall, information provision on the route is very poor.

infobleep · 19 Dec 2019

Deepgreen said:
My local station is Betchworth and the former goods yard site has been cleared and quite a large working site set up. I initially thought this was as a base for the extensive re-fencing taking place nearby, but now notices have appeared at the station advising that the EB platform is being extended (the WB is already six cars), presumably to four cars. The EB starter has also recently been replaced with a single lens LED unit. It's been a long time since our little station has seen so much action! All we need now are the longer trains.

As a slight aside, the 1630 from Redhill was slightly delayed leaving Redhill today and, even before we left, the auto p.a. said we were at Reigate! Passengers tittered, but, when we got to Reigate, the announcement said we were at Betchworth and next stop was Dorking Deepdene. This was just at the moment that anyone boarding would only have heard that the next stop was Dorking - i.e. not stopping at Betchworth. Cue potential panic and delay to train while passengers try to check what's happening.

The auto announcements on the NDL frequently get out of sync. and it's very poor. On top of this information fragility, I have yet to hear any corrections being provided by the guard on any of these occasions. If these things happened only rarely, it would be understandable, but the frequency is just not good enough, and the failure by train staff to correct the errors is unforgivable.

The platform screen at Dorking Deepdene WB still frequently clears the train arriving or standing at the platform in favour of the following one, leaving people boarding or just arriving at the platform bemused. The screen at Betchworth WB always shows trains as being two minutes later than they actually are, but GWR, although claiming to understand how important good information is (in response to regular complaints), have failed to correct these anomalies for years.

Overall, information provision on the route is very poor.

I don't know what is worse. Having trains clear the board before they depart or after. At Clapham Junction it is after. So you get onto the platform only to find the train has gone.

RichT54 · 19 Dec 2019

Deepgreen said:
My local station is Betchworth and the former goods yard site has been cleared and quite a large working site set up. I initially thought this was as a base for the extensive re-fencing taking place nearby, but now notices have appeared at the station advising that the EB platform is being extended (the WB is already six cars), presumably to four cars. The EB starter has also recently been replaced with a single lens LED unit. It's been a long time since our little station has seen so much action! All we need now are the longer trains.

There are now real signs

that the work that has been going on at Sandhurst station is definitely for extending the platforms to handle the new trains.

IMG_20191219_093019

RichT54
19 Dec 2019

After several weeks work, signs have now appeared which confirm they are extending the platforms...

This week they have created some concrete bases at the Guildford end of platform 1 to support the new platform sections.
View media item 3612

Deepgreen · 19 Dec 2019

Does anyone know whether Dorking Deepdene's platforms are to be extended? They might just accommodate four cars as they are. As one of the busier stations on the route, DD's platforms are petty dire - the EB one doesn't even have a 'Way Out' sign which, although it's pretty obvious if you are close to it, I had thought was a legal requirement.

Deepgreen · 19 Dec 2019

infobleep said:
I don't know what is worse. Having trains clear the board before they depart or after. At Clapham Junction it is after. So you get onto the platform only to find the train has gone.

"Before" is far worse in my view - people arriving at the platform don't know whether the train in the platform has been shown with the wrong time, or if it's really the one that has just vanished from the screen - in short, people boarding don't have the information they need. Stopping patterns may be different, etc.

If the screen changes after departure at least you don't run the risk of boarding the wrong train or letting yours go because you think it's not the right one. Depends on the frequency, range of trains, etc., of course.

Meerkat · 21 Dec 2019

Deepgreen said:
Does anyone know whether Dorking Deepdene's platforms are to be extended? They might just accommodate four cars as they are. As one of the busier stations on the route, DD's platforms are petty dire - the EB one doesn't even have a 'Way Out' sign which, although it's pretty obvious if you are close to it, I had thought was a legal requirement.

Deepdene is ridiculously poor for a well used station. Usage would probably go up a fair bit if the steep open stairs were replaced with decent wide covered stairways and lifts for accessibility/pushchairs etc

infobleep · 22 Dec 2019

Meerkat said:
Deepdene is ridiculously poor for a well used station. Usage would probably go up a fair bit if the steep open stairs were replaced with decent wide covered stairways and lifts for accessibility/pushchairs etc

They do tell people that Dorking West has step free access. What they don't say is that services only run every 2 hours for parts of the day.

It's amazing to think that Dorking Deepdene once had platform buildings. As did Dorking West (then Dorking Town).

big all · 22 Dec 2019

infobleep said:
They do tell people that Dorking West has step free access. What they don't say is that services only run every 2 hours for parts of the day.

It's amazing to think that Dorking Deepdene once had platform buildings. As did Dorking West (then Dorking Town).

Have the bus shelters been removed at Deepdene?

Dorking West (or Dorking Town as it was called) were staffed, unlike Deepdene

JonathanH · 22 Dec 2019

big all said:
Have the bus shelters been removed at Deepdene?

Dorking West (or Dorking Town as it was called) were staffed, unlike Deepdene

The shelters were recently replaced at Deepdene.

However, I suspect infobleep is referring to the buildings in this picture that were removed long ago.

Meerkat · 22 Dec 2019

infobleep said:
They do tell people that Dorking West has step free access. What they don't say is that services only run every 2 hours for parts of the day.

It's amazing to think that Dorking Deepdene once had platform buildings. As did Dorking West (then Dorking Town).

Dorking West is even more isolated and unwelcoming than Deepdene!

big all · 22 Dec 2019

JonathanH said:
The shelters were recently replaced at Deepdene.

However, I suspect infobleep is referring to the buildings in this picture that were removed long ago.

blimey thanks no buildings there in the 70s when i came down although thinking back i can remember wondering what the additional concrete stumps where for at the back off the platform ??

Deepgreen · 22 Dec 2019

Meerkat said:
Dorking West is even more isolated and unwelcoming than Deepdene!

West is actually fairly well placed for the residential area close by, and slightly closer to the town centre than Deepdene. Deepdene's facilities are shockingly poor for such a relatively busy station - one bus shelter per (wooden) platform, which were missing completely for the whole of last winter without a word of explanation from GWR! My 'armchair planning' head tells me that the station should be replaced by a three-platformed one, with the middle platform road bi-directional to permit trains to overtake with a more frequent service and proper lift access and a dedicated route to Dorking for better interchange. The site could accommodate the wider footprint that this would require. However, my armchair is very comfortable, it must be said!

JonathanH · 22 Dec 2019

Deepgreen said:
My 'armchair planning' head tells me that the station should be replaced by a three-platformed one, with the middle platform road bi-directional to permit trains to overtake with a more frequent service and proper lift access and a dedicated route to Dorking for better interchange. The site could accommodate the wider footprint that this would require.

I'm not sure what service your plan would facilitate (and putting extra tracks or platforms in at Deepdene would be ridiculously expensive).

The existing 3tph proposal is designed around two semi-fast Reading to Gatwick services an hour with an hourly stopper looped at Guildford on one side of the hour.

A loop at Dorking doesn't really give you anything extra because the signal headways are so great that the stopping train at Dorking Deepdene would need to be there for over ten minutes waiting for the other train to approach and clear the line ahead.

While some other form of access may have to be considered in the future at Deepdene, I'm not convinced that pushing the station East to the point where it crosses the Horsham line adds much - it makes the station less convenient for Dorking itself and going via the road between the Main station and Deepdene isn't really that far.

The 2019 proposal for 'access for all' funding did not get through but it would appear to need a large amount of the available funding.
https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/dorking-deepdene-upgrade-plans-announced-15436520

Also discussed here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/dorking-town-forum-have-a-crayon-plan-for-deepdene.174145/

As an aside, is there anywhere where substantial permanent lift access has been built to a fairly basic wooden platform?

Deepgreen · 22 Dec 2019

JonathanH said:
I'm not sure what service your plan would facilitate (and putting extra tracks or platforms in at Deepdene would be ridiculously expensive).

The existing 3tph proposal is designed around two semi-fast Reading to Gatwick services an hour with an hourly stopper looped at Guildford on one side of the hour.

A loop at Dorking doesn't really give you anything extra because the signal headways are so great that the stopping train at Dorking Deepdene would need to be there for over ten minutes waiting for the other train to approach and clear the line ahead.

While some other form of access may have to be considered in the future at Deepdene, I'm not convinced that pushing the station East to the point where it crosses the Horsham line adds much - it makes the station less convenient for Dorking itself and going via the road between the Main station and Deepdene isn't really that far.

The 2019 proposal for 'access for all' funding did not get through but it would appear to need a large amount of the available funding.
https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/dorking-deepdene-upgrade-plans-announced-15436520

Also discussed here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/dorking-town-forum-have-a-crayon-plan-for-deepdene.174145/

As an aside, is there anywhere where substantial permanent lift access has been built to a fairly basic wooden platform?

Expensive indeed, but I wonder what the remaining life of the wooden structures is at DD, leaving aside the sheer lack of facilities there. It would need better signalling on the line and a number of other things, to permit 4tph (the extra tph being a potential through service from Oxford with the flexibility to recover from delays en route while keeping the service order. DD wouldn't need to be moved east, just have an/the entrance in the centre of the rebuilt station and link to existing/amended paths to provide the link to Dorking.

This all sits a long way ahead, if at all, but I did say my armchair was very comfortable!

FenMan · 22 Dec 2019

Deepgreen said:
Expensive indeed, but I wonder what the remaining life of the wooden structures is at DD, leaving aside the sheer lack of facilities there. It would need better signalling on the line and a number of other things, to permit 4tph (the extra tph being a potential through service from Oxford with the flexibility to recover from delays en route while keeping the service order. DD wouldn't need to be moved east, just have an/the entrance in the centre of the rebuilt station and link to existing/amended paths to provide the link to Dorking.

This all sits a long way ahead, if at all, but I did say my armchair was very comfortable!

[crayonista mode]

Building lifts and a footbridge at Ash would be my priority, hugely improving connectivity between Alton/Farnham/Aldershot and Blackwater/Wokingham/Reading and beyond.

[/crayonista mode]

DelW · 22 Dec 2019

RichT54 said:
There are now real signs that the work that has been going on at Sandhurst station is definitely for extending the platforms to handle the new trains.

IMG_20191219_093019

RichT54

19 Dec 2019

After several weeks work, signs have now appeared which confirm they are extending the platforms...

This week they have created some concrete bases at the Guildford end of platform 1 to support the new platform sections.
View media item 3612

I hadn't previously realised that "new" was a synonym for "thirty year old".

infobleep · 22 Dec 2019

JonathanH said:
I'm not sure what service your plan would facilitate (and putting extra tracks or platforms in at Deepdene would be ridiculously expensive).

The existing 3tph proposal is designed around two semi-fast Reading to Gatwick services an hour with an hourly stopper looped at Guildford on one side of the hour.

A loop at Dorking doesn't really give you anything extra because the signal headways are so great that the stopping train at Dorking Deepdene would need to be there for over ten minutes waiting for the other train to approach and clear the line ahead.

While some other form of access may have to be considered in the future at Deepdene, I'm not convinced that pushing the station East to the point where it crosses the Horsham line adds much - it makes the station less convenient for Dorking itself and going via the road between the Main station and Deepdene isn't really that far.

The 2019 proposal for 'access for all' funding did not get through but it would appear to need a large amount of the available funding.
https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/dorking-deepdene-upgrade-plans-announced-15436520

Also discussed here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/dorking-town-forum-have-a-crayon-plan-for-deepdene.174145/

As an aside, is there anywhere where substantial permanent lift access has been built to a fairly basic wooden platform?

Are they allowed to put in lifts at an unmanned railway station?

One alternative would be to stop more trains at Dorking West but that would lead to extended journey times and maybe there isn't the pathing time to do that.

Barn · 23 Dec 2019

It feels like there should be a case for Dorking West being on both stopping services (i.e. hourly).

Deepgreen · 23 Dec 2019

Barn said:
It feels like there should be a case for Dorking West being on both stopping services (i.e. hourly).

Now, while my thoughts were 'pie-in-the-sky' stuff, this, I think, has serious merit. Apart from Deepdene's interchange with Dorking (which is significant), the role of Dorking West as a pedestrian access point to the town is under-played at present. It also has 6 car, step-free access 'proper' platforms, and a relatively tiny investment could bring it up to a fair standard.

30909 · 23 Dec 2019

How "significant" is the interchange at Deepdene I wonder. Using NR Journey planner Gomshall & Betchworth start/end points very few London journeys route via Dorking (Main) admittedly journeys to Leatherhead, Epsom, Sutton & Horsham do. Deepdene is well situated for local bus interchange, taxis and I expect importantly for the Aviva (formerly Friends Provident) offices and the Secondary School on Ashcombe Road. As stated above Dorking West (formerly Dorking Town) is better situated for pedestrian access to the town centre and the commercial development in Vincent Lane.

Deepgreen · 23 Dec 2019

30909 said:
How "significant" is the interchange at Deepdene I wonder. Using NR Journey planner Gomshall & Betchworth start/end points very few London journeys route via Dorking (Main) admittedly journeys to Leatherhead, Epsom, Sutton & Horsham do. Deepdene is well situated for local bus interchange, taxis and I expect importantly for the Aviva (formerly Friends Provident) offices and the Secondary School on Ashcombe Road. As stated above Dorking West (formerly Dorking Town) is better situated for pedestrian access to the town centre and the commercial development in Vincent Lane.

As someone who has done it very often (living at Betchworth), many people do interchange between lines, to the point that Dorking ticket hall has the Deepdene departures displayed. I think some got into the habit during the long period of Redhill unreliability (not that it's over yet).

Bikeman78 · 24 Dec 2019

infobleep said:
Are they allowed to put in lifts at an unmanned railway station?

One alternative would be to stop more trains at Dorking West but that would lead to extended journey times and maybe there isn't the pathing time to do that.

Other stations already have them. Bargoed and Elsenham spring to mind. I'm pretty sure Meridian Water is unstaffed.

Minstral25 · 24 Dec 2019

Deepgreen said:
As someone who has done it very often (living at Betchworth), many people do interchange between lines, to the point that Dorking ticket hall has the Deepdene departures displayed. I think some got into the habit during the long period of Redhill unreliability (not that it's over yet).

Station Usage suggests 262k interchanges at Deepdene. As they could only be to Dorking Main that stations 106k seems wrong. Either way there are a lot of interchanges - having done it myself it is inconvenient but a good way of getting from South West London to Reigate or Redhill

FenMan · 24 Dec 2019

Minstral25 said:
Station Usage suggests 262k interchanges at Deepdene. As they could only be to Dorking Main that stations 106k seems wrong. Either way there are a lot of interchanges - having done it myself it is inconvenient but a good way of getting from South West London to Reigate or Redhill

Changing at Dorking is normally the easiest route to Horsham from more westerly stations, including Reading and Guildford.

infobleep · 24 Dec 2019

FenMan said:
Changing at Dorking is normally the easiest route to Horsham from more westerly stations, including Reading and Guildford.

It is. Just ashame trains don't run late into the evening.

If I wish to go to a concert in Horsham, I can't, as I can't get back to Guildford. Last train that connects is 22:25 and that is via Gatwick Airport.

Meerkat · 27 Dec 2019

Deepdene is better for the buses and the interchange is just fine as it is - pretty sure most people would feel safer along the main road than the quiet alleys and side roads some are suggesting.
West may look closer to the town centre on a map but I doubt anyone gets the train to go shopping in Dorking (just stay on to the much bigger towns at either end) - Deepdene is closer to the council offices, swimming pool and Dorking halls.
West is also tucked away in a grotty trading estate.
Deepdene desperately needs lifts and better waiting rooms and stairs though.

infobleep · 29 Dec 2019

I'm looking up services from Gatwick Airport to Guildford tomorrow and it is routing me via Clapham Junction, despite the fact that takes longer than the direct rail replacement bus to Guildford.

However if I put in North Camp then the direct buses show up at x35. Going into the details it seems to show the bus is non-stop to North Camp and not stopping at Guildford. However Real Time Trains show the x35 departure as stopping at Guildford.

Does anyone know what is going on with National Rail Enquiries, as I thought it used the same timetable information as Real Time Trains?

JN114 · 29 Dec 2019

infobleep said:
I'm looking up services from Gatwick Airport to Guildford tomorrow and it is routing me via Clapham Junction, despite the fact that takes longer than the direct rail replacement bus to Guildford.

However if I put in North Camp then the direct buses show up at x35. Going into the details it seems to show the bus is non-stop to North Camp and not stopping at Guildford. However Real Time Trains show the x35 departure as stopping at Guildford.

Does anyone know what is going on with National Rail Enquiries, as I thought it used the same timetable information as Real Time Trains?

NRE is more powerful than the "open" sites like RTT - operators can weight certain services or flows to encourage passengers to travel certain routes - I don't know what the mechanism for doing so is, but it's normally made mention of in our weekend engineering briefs if it's been done. In this instance while slower than the RRB, there is significantly more capacity via Clapham Junction. By dissuading direct passengers off the buses, it frees up spaces on the bus for those that don't have the option of the higher capacity, more circuitous route. All operators have seen the chaos that ensues on busy routes where it isn't practical - for whatever reason - to provide what would be normally considered "sufficient" capacity - Redhill to Three Bridges RRS a couple of years ago being a prime example.

Hopefully that answers your questions. It's not NDL 3tph related though really so further discussion should probably go in another thread.

3tph on North Downs Line

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