CrossCountry Voyagers: No interior decor change in 12 years and counting

185143 · 24 Dec 2019

Will Mitchell said:
Be careful what you wish for. It’s hard to think of a single interior refurb which hasn’t succeeded in making trains less comfortable than they used to be. They will swap out the existing lighting for 5000k LEDs, install ironing boards for seats and get rid of whatever skeleton catering facilities are left. It’s a race to the bottom.

Class 185s.

RailUK Forums

Goldfish62 · 24 Dec 2019

coradiafan2000 said:
I thought the TPE 185 refurbishment was an improvement?

I agree. It's a fine refurbishment.

Others I can think of are the SWT Class 455 and GNER Mallard, both exemplars of their types.

greatvoyager · 24 Dec 2019

If done well, I think they will be good, dare I say great?
Either way, it's getting close to 20 years of the same interior, so it's high time something was done.

Will Mitchell · 25 Dec 2019

TT-ONR-NRN said:
First also really improved the HSTs, especially in First class - the transformation was amazing and totally counteracts what you said about lighting. The standard class refurbishment seen in today’s castle sets is also much nicer on the eye.

Have to disagree there. I thought those big leather seats in First looked the part but were actually quite uncomfortable on the longer journeys down to Cornwall - they were too slippy and lacking lumbar support. It’s true about the lighting though, especially compared to the torture chamber they served-up in standard class. I would actually go as far as to say the FGW HST standard class interior is the nadir of British train interiors: An absolutely vile colour scheme; a sense of foreboding claustrophobia from the high seat backs; lighting fit for a gulag operating theatre; and seat backs so upright they were almost perpendicular. In comparison to the original BR interior it was absolute disgrace. I wouldn’t even keep farm animals in those conditions.

GoneSouth · 25 Dec 2019

Will Mitchell said:
Have to disagree there. I thought those big leather seats in First looked the part but were actually quite uncomfortable on the longer journeys down to Cornwall - they were too slippy and lacking lumbar support. It’s true about the lighting though, especially compared to the torture chamber they served-up in standard class. I would actually go as far as to say the FGW HST standard class interior is the nadir of British train interiors: An absolutely vile colour scheme; a sense of foreboding claustrophobia from the high seat backs; lighting fit for a gulag operating theatre; and seat backs so upright they were almost perpendicular. In comparison to the original BR interior it was absolute disgrace. I wouldn’t even keep farm animals in those conditions.

You’re right, the colour scheme was absolutely vile along with all of First’s external liveries until the GWR green (yes this maybe dull but thankfully no sign of pink anywhere). What the hell was that colour on the walls anyway

coradiafan2000 · 25 Dec 2019

GoneSouth said:
You’re right, the colour scheme was absolutely vile along with all of First’s external liveries until the GWR green (yes this maybe dull but thankfully no sign of pink anywhere). What the hell was that colour on the walls anyway

I'm pretty much of the opposite opinion. I despise the GWR green livery but love the FGW one. First class in both was amazing in my view.

Bletchleyite · 25 Dec 2019

Will Mitchell said:
I would actually go as far as to say the FGW HST standard class interior is the nadir of
British train interiors

Thus spake a man who has never been on a Merseytravel interior Pacer or a 150/2 while in possession of a pair of legs.

greatvoyager · 25 Dec 2019

Will they ever bother to repaint any of the Virgin coloured parts, such as the interior of the exit doors?

daveshah · 25 Dec 2019

greatvoyager said:
Will they ever bother to repaint any of the Virgin coloured parts, such as the interior of the exit doors?

The cynic in me says they wouldn't want to because they'd rather keep the relatively good brand image of Virgin (many people still see it as Virgin CrossCountry...)

greatvoyager · 25 Dec 2019

daveshah said:
The cynic in me says they wouldn't want to because they'd rather keep the relatively good brand image of Virgin (many people still see it as Virgin CrossCountry...)

To the point where some people complained to Virgin about a few things years after they finished running the XC franchise.

coradiafan2000 · 25 Dec 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Thus spake a man who has never been on a Merseytravel interior Pacer or a 150/2 while in possession of a pair of legs.

Oh god I just remembered how much I hate airline seats on 150/2s. Sawing off my legs honestly seems less painful.

devonexpress · 25 Dec 2019

Given in the next 5 to 10 years, the XC fleet will probably be mostly IET's in line with the rest of the country, I can't see the voyagers getting a major refresh, possibly some new seat covers and a few changes once the WC Voyagers join and a new operator takes over.

devonexpress · 25 Dec 2019

Will Mitchell said:
Have to disagree there. I thought those big leather seats in First looked the part but were actually quite uncomfortable on the longer journeys down to Cornwall - they were too slippy and lacking lumbar support. It’s true about the lighting though, especially compared to the torture chamber they served-up in standard class. I would actually go as far as to say the FGW HST standard class interior is the nadir of British train interiors: An absolutely vile colour scheme; a sense of foreboding claustrophobia from the high seat backs; lighting fit for a gulag operating theatre; and seat backs so upright they were almost perpendicular. In comparison to the original BR interior it was absolute disgrace. I wouldn’t even keep farm animals in those conditions.

That's a load of rubbish, I commuted on FGW/GWR for years, and ok Standard Class seats could do with a bit more padding, they are perfectly fine, and the GWR 2014 First Class seats are probably some of the best FC seats available.

greatvoyager · 25 Dec 2019

devonexpress said:
Given in the next 5 to 10 years, the XC fleet will probably be mostly IET's in line with the rest of the country, I can't see the voyagers getting a major refresh, possibly some new seat covers and a few changes once the WC Voyagers join and a new operator takes over.

It'll depend on if anyone can be bothered to invest in the stock.

Thunderer · 26 Dec 2019

Cross-Country should be treated as an important franchise because we need to get more people off the roads and out of planes and into trains for long distance journeys within the UK. Overcrowding, expensive prices and poor on-board facilities are not attractive to the long distance traveller. My family recently drove from the North East to South Wales as train prices were far too high to be even considered. A bit of joined-up thinking and some investment could see Bromsgrove-Bristol, Birmingham-Sheffield wired and a new fleet of 7 or even 9 coach bi-mode trains could be procured with an on-board buffet offering hot meals to long distance and all travellers, decent capacity with comfortable seating and lighting and why not have one of the driving trailers as a storage for luggage, bikes, and space to carry parcels? (Revenue oppertunity). XC services from Manchester and Scotland could then run to Bristol using the 25Kv overhead system (less emissions). If a traveller from Edinburgh to Bristol had the option of a train like I have described above at a reasonable price, then they well opt for the train instead of the plane. There is a huge oppertunity for the new XC franchise to develop and expand the business, but the product on offer to the passenger has got to be spot on and at a competative/reasonable price. In reality, we could all be in for a very long wait!

JonathanH · 26 Dec 2019

Thunderer said:
My family recently drove from the North East to South Wales as train prices were far too high to be even considered. A bit of joined-up thinking and some investment could see Bromsgrove-Bristol, Birmingham-Sheffield wired and a new fleet of 7 or even 9 coach bi-mode trains could be procured with an on-board buffet offering hot meals to long distance and all travellers, decent capacity with comfortable seating and lighting and why not have one of the driving trailers as a storage for luggage, bikes, and space to carry parcels? (Revenue oppertunity).

Unfortunately, those proposals don't sound like they would reduce the price of journeys or make dwell times at stations shorter.

Thunderer said:
If a traveller from Edinburgh to Bristol had the option of a train like I have described above at a reasonable price, then they well opt for the train instead of the plane.

It would still be slower than a plane journey and probably as expensive as the current train.

greatvoyager · 26 Dec 2019

Surely if another company was operating the services, the Voyagers would have received a mire long term refurbishment by now. Most other operators have either completely refurbished their fleets, or gained new stock. XC is falling behind.

JonathanH · 26 Dec 2019

greatvoyager said:
Surely if another company was operating the services, the Voyagers would have received a mire long term refurbishment by now. Most other operators have either completely refurbished their fleets, or gained new stock. XC is falling behind.

The Cross Country franchise was let in 2007 - in line with the contract they refitted the Voyagers early on in the franchise to remove the shop and increase the seating capacity - standard class got a new batch of seating covers and the seating covers in first class were changed - this is all that they were required to do (and indeed all that any other operator would have had to do given the same franchise agreement). The franchise should have ended in March 2016 but it didn't and now ends in October 2020, if not later. Neither Cross Country or any other operator is under any obligation to refit the Voyagers. So, no, another operator would not necessarily have done anything to change the Voyagers.

Note that Virgin haven't don't much to theirs either since the changes shortly after 2007 and the recent change to seat covers in first class. It is not until now, with a new franchise, that anything is changing with the replacement fleet.

As has been explained they can't spare units now to carry out a refurbishment programme even if one was sanctioned.

greatvoyager · 27 Dec 2019

JonathanH said:
The Cross Country franchise was let in 2007 - in line with the contract they refitted the Voyagers early on in the franchise to remove the shop and increase the seating capacity - standard class got a new batch of seating covers and the seating covers in first class were changed - this is all that they were required to do (and indeed all that any other operator would have had to do given the same franchise agreement). The franchise should have ended in March 2016 but it didn't and now ends in October 2020, if not later. Neither Cross Country or any other operator is under any obligation to refit the Voyagers. So, no, another operator would not necessarily have done anything to change the Voyagers.

Note that Virgin haven't don't much to theirs either since the changes shortly after 2007 and the recent change to seat covers in first class. It is not until now, with a new franchise, that anything is changing with the replacement fleet.

As has been explained they can't spare units now to carry out a refurbishment programme even if one was sanctioned.

They may not be under any obligation, but they should be, considering that, whole I have no problem with the interior, it is becoming increasingly tatty. If they can't spare any units, how did they do the original refurbishment with one less train in the fleet?

hooverboy · 27 Dec 2019

greatvoyager said:
They may not be under any obligation, but they should be, considering that, whole I have no problem with the interior, it is becoming increasingly tatty. If they can't spare any units, how did they do the original refurbishment with one less train in the fleet?

passenger numbers over the last 12 years or so have increased quite a bit.
what would have been provisionally booked in as a hot spare to cover for units out of service will have subsequently been in need on the metals, so much less slack now in any backup that was originally anticipated.

Its something the new operator will need to address,as XC capacity is chronically short at the moment.
I think they'll retain the voyagers,and add (at least some) avanti ones as and when they are available.It would make sense to have them on order and refurbed directly they become available, as soon as they are in service the present XC ones can then get their refresh.

greatvoyager · 27 Dec 2019

hooverboy said:
passenger numbers over the last 12 years or so have increased quite a bit.
what would have been provisionally booked in as a hot spare to cover for units out of service will have subsequently been in need on the metals, so much less slack now in any backup that was originally anticipated.

Its something the new operator will need to address,as XC capacity is chronically short at the moment.
I think they'll retain the voyagers,and add (at least some) avanti ones as and when they are available.It would make sense to have them on order and refurbed directly they become available, as soon as they are in service the present XC ones can then get their refresh.

I agree, to me it seems that no franchise ever seems to be allocated the right amount of stock.

XC victim · 27 Dec 2019

greatvoyager said:
I agree, to me it seems that no franchise ever seems to be allocated the right amount of stock.

Yes, at the moment all Franchises appear to run with the absolute minimum of stock. This would appear to be down to the way rolling stock is owned by the Leasing companies and the Leasing costs to the TOC. There are currently many stories of Train Operating Companies struggling and failing but does anyone know if any of the Leasing Companies are actually struggling or failing.

someone, somewhere is really gaining from the privatised rail system, it certainly isn’t the passenger and it really doesn’t appear to be the TOCs either

greatvoyager · 27 Dec 2019

XC victim said:
Yes, at the moment all Franchises appear to run with the absolute minimum of stock. This would appear to be down to the way rolling stock is owned by the Leasing companies and the Leasing costs to the TOC. There are currently many stories of Train Operating Companies struggling and failing but does anyone know if any of the Leasing Companies are actually struggling or failing.

someone, somewhere is really gaining from the privatised rail system, it certainly isn’t the passenger and it really doesn’t appear to be the TOCs either

I think that the leasing companies should be the ones required to ensure stock is refurbished to a high standard. After all, if they get lots of stock off lease, they'll want to get it back in service as soon as possible.

jayah · 27 Dec 2019

devonexpress said:
That's a load of rubbish, I commuted on FGW/GWR for years, and ok Standard Class seats could do with a bit more padding, they are perfectly fine, and the GWR 2014 First Class seats are probably some of the best FC seats available.

When the Voyagers were introduced the seats were bemoaned as hard and uncomfortable.

When FGW changed the Standard HST seats they were bemoaned as hard and uncomfortable.

When the IETs / 700s....you get the idea now.

The Voyager seats are some of the most comfortable Standard seats going these days, although XC are researching future antibiotics inside some of the rubber window surrounds.

greatvoyager · 27 Dec 2019

jayah said:
When the Voyagers were introduced the seats were bemoaned as hard and uncomfortable.

When FGW changed the Standard HST seats they were bemoaned as hard and uncomfortable.

When the IETs / 700s....you get the idea now.

The Voyager seats are some of the most comfortable Standard seats going these days, although XC are researching future antibiotics inside some of the rubber window surrounds.

I have to agree with you, the seats are more comfortable than people make out.

Energy · 27 Dec 2019

jayah said:
although XC are researching future antibiotics inside some of the rubber window surrounds.

XC trains certanly aren't clean.

RealTrains07 · 27 Dec 2019

Got an 8 coach 220 running to manchester via stoke, dont see many of them!

1 issue with them is that no matter the seat quality. The trains are still gonna get cramped anyway considering you cant move between units if joined

greatvoyager · 27 Dec 2019

Energy said:
XC trains certanly aren't clean.

And cleaning them would be an improvement to start with.

Dan15812 · 28 Dec 2019

I happen to be travelling on a voyager the other day. Absolutely disgraceful service. When boarding the overpacked train my only option was the to sit in first class. On arrival into to Basingstoke the retail service manager told me you can either pay to upgrade or find somewhere to stand. Some chose to sit in the toilet whilst others sat clumped together the smelly vestibule areas. The interior of the train felt dated battered seats, wall panelling scratched and carpets staind. I felt I had to complain to the on board crew. They said "we know the service is terrible", "we call them the flying toilets''. And I totally agree!

greatvoyager · 28 Dec 2019

Dan15812 said:
I happen to be travelling on a voyager the other day. Absolutely disgraceful service. When boarding the overpacked train my only option was the to sit in first class. On arrival into to Basingstoke the retail service manager told me you can either pay to upgrade or find somewhere to stand. Some chose to sit in the toilet whilst others sat clumped together the smelly vestibule areas. The interior of the train felt dated battered seats, wall panelling scratched and carpets staind. I felt I had to complain to the on board crew. They said "we know the service is terrible", "we call them the flying toilets''. And I totally agree!

That highlights how much they NEED a refurbishment. They were fine when they first entered service, but nearly 20 years later, they aren't being cleaned and seem to be low priority.

CrossCountry Voyagers: No interior decor change in 12 years and counting

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