Paying only when challenged – cash vs card

Dai Corner · 26 Dec 2019

AM9 said:
So if the passenger dosen't have any cards and needs to get to, say, a Hospital for an appointment, does that mean that they are legally required to obtain a credit card, debit card or end get a bank account before they can attend that hospital appointment? And if any bank that they attempt to join refuses to let them have an account, are they therefore excluding from all rail travel forever? You really need to think this through if you are seriously proposing that the law is changed because it is beneficial to TOC's profits and convenient to you.

No. I meant if he left his cards at home.

It's virtually impossible to have an income without a bank account and therefore a debit card anyway, unless you're a cash in hand trader/worker or pocket money recipient.

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AM9 · 26 Dec 2019

Dai Corner said:
No. I meant if he left his cards at home.

It's virtually impossible to have an income without a bank account and therefore a debit card anyway, unless you're a cash in hand trader/worker or pocket money recipient.

You are looking at the problem from the wrong end. Not providing for cash payment of rail fares is a TOC problem, not an issue for the law. As I said upstream, if a TOC fails to provide facilities for cash purchases of tickets (for profit/security/any other convenient reason), it is up to them to make other provisions for those who for whatever reason, don't have a card when they arrive at the departure point. Thos provisions could include:

payment on train
payment on arrival at destination
a travel card that can be loaded by a person who only has cash (maybe an ITSO type)
or any combinaation of the above

Options 1 & 2 have the problem that proof of start point might be desirable. The industry has already used the obvious 'permit to travel card' as proof of start point. It only needs to keep the machine stocked with tickets for there to be no excuse for travelling without one.*
The other problem is those getting off at stations with no barriers (or staff). As I said above, with all the money that the TOC saves by not accepting cash at unmanned stations, they can invest in a few travelling RPOs who armed with the information of how many permit to travel tickets were in the system, could organise on-train or platform blocks to make it suffiently risky for the usual culprits to persistently evade paying fares. Local cameras on platforms would assist in their choice of which passengers to tackle first.
Instead, everybody seems to pretend that there's nothing that can be done and think that the solution is allowing travel on what is a public transport only when carrying a bank card of some sort, whilst severely disrupting many honest citizens who would be quite happy to pay with cash every time they travel and not have to get a bank card for the privilege.

* Of course, if the TVM is faulty, then even those with cards will have to travel ticketless.

GEM08 · 26 Dec 2019

There are currently 1.5million adults without a bank account it is entirely unacceptable outside of a huge city to remove cash options

bkhtele · 26 Dec 2019

There is an arrangement with the banks that everyone is entitled to a basic bank account with a card. If that does not include a contactless card (with 100%) authorisation that needs to change to avoid excluding some of the population.

ForTheLoveOf · 26 Dec 2019

Whilst I am wary of misusing analogies, a closely linked and apt one can be made in this case.

Let's say our prospective passenger held an in-date Rail Travel Voucher of sufficient value to pay for the ticket required for this journey. Clearly, no ticket machines accept Rail Travel Vouchers (at the moment - I don't see why they can't as it's all done using barcodes nowadays!) so the passenger has no way of buying a ticket before boarding if their origin station doesn't have an open ticket office.

I don't think anyone would see it as unreasonable, or in any way an offence, for the passenger to want to use the RTV for payment for the journey, even if they have the required cash and/or card(s) to buy a ticket before boarding.

So why is it different between a passenger holding an RTV and wanting to use this to pay, and a passenger holding cash and wanting to use this to pay?

It is true that some passengers will specifically choose a payment method because they know that the likelihood of them being able, or required, to pay their fare using said method is very low. If the passenger's intention is not to pay the fare then it doesn't matter that no suitable ticketing facilities exist - they are guilty of a S(5)(3)(a) RoRA offence.

However, the likelihood that a passenger "smart" enough to work all this out will admit their intentions is very low, I'd have thought. And in the absence of a confession or other convincing evidence, the mere fact that the passenger has decided to use cash or Rail Travel Vouchers to pay for their fare is not sufficient evidence of such intent.

Bletchleyite · 26 Dec 2019

AM9 said:
So if the passenger dosen't have any cards and needs to get to, say, a Hospital for an appointment, does that mean that they are legally required to obtain a credit card, debit card or end get a bank account before they can attend that hospital appointment? And if any bank that they attempt to join refuses to let them have an account, are they therefore excluding from all rail travel forever? You really need to think this through if you are seriously proposing that the law is changed because it is beneficial to TOC's profits and convenient to you.

You can obtain a pre-paid debit card which do not have any eligibility requirements (as they are not bank accounts) and can be charged at any PayPoint/PayZone shop with cash over the counter. This is really no different from an Oyster card except that you can spend it anywhere. They are even available to children.

Bletchleyite · 26 Dec 2019

gwrtimetable19 said:
Whilst I am wary of misusing analogies, a closely linked and apt one can be made in this case.

Let's say our prospective passenger held an in-date Rail Travel Voucher of sufficient value to pay for the ticket required for this journey. Clearly, no ticket machines accept Rail Travel Vouchers (at the moment - I don't see why they can't as it's all done using barcodes nowadays!) so the passenger has no way of buying a ticket before boarding if their origin station doesn't have an open ticket office.

RTVs are an utter nuisance that are only used in very niche situations (as most people will select money for Delay Repay instead now this is on offer) and to be honest would be best abolished.

xotGD · 26 Dec 2019

Basically, a 'Promise to Pay' is really a 'Chance not to Pay' if you are traveling to a destination without barriers. And if you do get stopped then all you have to pay is the normal fare.

It is hardly surprising that some passengers choose the Promise to Pay option rather than buy a ticket.

yorkie · 26 Dec 2019

xotGD said:
Basically, a 'Promise to Pay' is really a 'Chance not to Pay' if you are traveling to a destination without barriers. And if you do get stopped then all you have to pay is the normal fare.

It is hardly surprising that some passengers choose the Promise to Pay option rather than buy a ticket.

I think you misunderstand what a 'promise to pay' is. There is no legal obligation to even obtain one!

It's a coupon that Northern rail ask people to obtain to indicate they were at a particular station and wanting to pay by cash from that station and that cash was not accepted at that station.

Your post suggests you think it is something else.

Bletchleyite said:
RTVs are an utter nuisance that are only used in very niche situations (as most people will select money for Delay Repay instead now this is on offer) and to be honest would be best abolished.

Well the rail industry issues them, so they need to accept them until / unless they abolish them.

neilmc · 26 Dec 2019

This is a problem entirely of the rail industry's making by destaffing stations and not providing ticket machines which accept cash, or no ticket machine at all. As almost all retail organisations accept cash, and cash is still a viable option for obtaining rail tickets, then the rail industry has basically decided that the revenue lost from customers being unable to purchase tickets by cash, mostly I assume for journeys between minor stations, is not worth collecting and have chosen to forfeit this. The blame can in no way be passed on to the customer in an effort to label people as fraudsters when they are unable but willing (whether when challenged or otherwise) to pay a cash fare for their journey.

Killingworth · 26 Dec 2019

This thread is about paying when challenged v. making payment before travel by card. Other payment methods are also available and are used by a large percentage of travellers.

It's true that over a million adults don't hold bank debit or credit cards that could be used to pay at a TVM. It could be suggested that less than half of these are likely to be travelling unaccompanied by someone with such a card.

However a cash alternative option has to be offered. It would be possible to install cash accepting ticket machines on all trains but that would run into the same issues as installing such equipment in isolated locations in the country or suburbs. Vandalism, cost and theft.

Manning all stations is not viable. Some may see less than 20 users a day. Manning busier stations at busy periods is practical but the determined can still walk onto the train without making payment.

Enforcement by guards on busy trains of as few as 2 coaches is impossible for all passengers where stations are close together. For longer trains it is totally impossible without specific revenue protection staff being aboard most trains.

There are a significant number of frequent travellers who know all this and play it to their advantage. Obtain a promise to pay ticket, or take a timed photo of an out of order machine, or of the long queue preventing them from getting a ticket, and pay on the train. Then don't because, as they probably knew, the guard won't reach them before they leave at an unbarriered station.

I remain unconvinced that all those not paying are conscientous objectors to having to pay by card at a TVM, or have no valid card that could be used. Some may tell themselves that it serves the TOC right for not spending more to collect fares than they'd receive. Most don't think about it so deeply. It's human nature to avoid paying when there's no, or little, enforcement.

At which point my mind wanders off topic to recall the way road speed limits tend to be ignored by a significant number of normal law abiding citizens when enforcement is weak!

Bletchleyite · 26 Dec 2019

yorkie said:
I think you misunderstand what a 'promise to pay' is. There is no legal obligation to even obtain one!

Is it not de-facto a Permit to Travel? Those were mandatory, weren't they?

Bletchleyite · 26 Dec 2019

Killingworth said:
At which point my mind wanders off topic to recall the way road speed limits tend to be ignored by a significant number of normal law abiding citizens when enforcement is weak!

There is another way to look at this. Milton Keynes has very few if any excessively low limits - most of it is NSL - and almost no enforcement at all. Yet compliance is good.

Could that be extended to ticketing? If the service is of good quality (Northern's appalling service does not fulfil this criterion) and a ticket is good value and easy to obtain (Northern's atrocious TVMs do not fulfil this criterion), will you get high compliance with that?

Killingworth · 26 Dec 2019

Bletchleyite said:
There is another way to look at this. Milton Keynes has very few if any excessively low limits - most of it is NSL - and almost no enforcement at all. Yet compliance is good.

Could that be extended to ticketing? If the service is of good quality (Northern's appalling service does not fulfil this criterion) and a ticket is good value and easy to obtain (Northern's atrocious TVMs do not fulfil this criterion), will you get high compliance with that?

There's a germ of truth in that

xotGD · 26 Dec 2019

yorkie said:
I think you misunderstand what a 'promise to pay' is.

Oh no, I fully appreciate what a Promise to Pay is all about. There are two reasons to get one from the ticket machine rather than a ticket. Firstly, there is the 'correct ' reason, where you want/need to pay cash or buy a ticket not available, and therefore need to buy your ticket later - rock up at Leeds without one and ask to buy a ticket, and there is every chance you'll be stung rather than being sold the ticket you are asking to buy. Secondly, as I described in my previous post, they are a risk free way of not paying when travelling to a station without barriers.

yorkie · 26 Dec 2019

We're going round and round in circles!

Killingworth said:
...There are a significant number of frequent travellers who know all this and play it to their advantage. Obtain a promise to pay ticket, or take a timed photo of an out of order machine, or of the long queue preventing them from getting a ticket...

If a passenger is unable to purchase their required ticket using their chosen payment method, because cash is not accepted, or the machine is out of order, they are entitled to board the train. A long queue can be a grey area; some train companies give clearer guidelines than others regarding acceptable maximum waiting times.

I fail to see how passengers can be 'blamed' for any of these things.

Northern specifcally state, in their Passengers Charter that...

...the ticket machine at the station is card only and you wish to use cash, then you should obtain a promise to pay ticket from the machine and pay at the first available opportunity....

No other train company asks passengers to obtain a "promise to pay" and there can be no legal basis for Northern to require passengers to obtain one, however doing so does demonstrate without any doubt that you were unable to buy the ticket from the machine and confirms the boarding station.

I understand you are unhappy that cash is a valid payment method; feel free to lobby your MP to remove this option if you want, but it aint happening!

In the meantime, complaining about the fact that people can use cash isn't going to change anything.

xotGD said:
Oh no, I fully appreciate what a Promise to Pay is all about. There are two reasons to get one from the ticket machine rather than a ticket. Firstly, there is the 'correct ' reason, where you want/need to pay cash or buy a ticket not available, and therefore need to buy your ticket later - rock up at Leeds without one and ask to buy a ticket, and there is every chance you'll be stung rather than being sold the ticket you are asking to buy. Secondly, as I described in my previous post, they are a risk free way of not paying when travelling to a station without barriers.

I don't understand what you mean; a promise to pay is only available from machines that do not accept cash; the holder of such a promise to pay is promising to pay in cash. I don't understand what your 'second' point means.

I'll also add that there isn't anything in law that compels passengers to obtain a promise to pay, so if the passenger arrives at Leeds and asks for a ticket from an unstaffed station, there is no legal basis to prosecute or penalise a passenger who does not produce a 'promise to pay'.

AlbertBeale · 27 Dec 2019

Dai Corner said:
No. I meant if he left his cards at home.

It's virtually impossible to have an income without a bank account and therefore a debit card anyway, unless you're a cash in hand trader/worker or pocket money recipient.

I have a bank account with no associated debit card. It's not unknown...

AlbertBeale · 27 Dec 2019

Hadders said:
Yes it can.

But the key problem about not taking cash on London buses is that you can't pay with cash at the bus stop before you board. When they first started refusing to take cash on some London buses, all the bus stops concerned had ticket machines. These have since been removed.

I've several times been on a late evening bus picking up people from a stop near a mainline station, sometimes a family with kids and luggage (sometimes from overseas), getting on and trying to pay in cash, and being turned off the bus and told to go and buy an Oyster card even though it might not be easy to find somewhere to buy one in that place at that time.

I take the view that being able to use cash is a basic right, and is important for some people, and I hate the way that people wanting or needing to do so are penalised.

Starmill · 27 Dec 2019

Bletchleyite said:
RTVs are an utter nuisance that are only used in very niche situations (as most people will select money for Delay Repay instead now this is on offer) and to be honest would be best abolished.

This is certainly wrong.

I'm often been sent them when I asked for something else, such as a complimentary travel ticket. I've been given them as resolutions to complaints of overcharging and told to take it or leave it.

It would be rather easy for the companies to all decide to replace RTVs with money in all circumstances if they actually wanted done with them. They've yet to do this, so they clearly aren't that bothered.

Hadders · 27 Dec 2019

AlbertBeale said:
But the key problem about not taking cash on London buses is that you can't pay with cash at the bus stop before you board. When they first started refusing to take cash on some London buses, all the bus stops concerned had ticket machines. These have since been removed.

I've several times been on a late evening bus picking up people from a stop near a mainline station, sometimes a family with kids and luggage (sometimes from overseas), getting on and trying to pay in cash, and being turned off the bus and told to go and buy an Oyster card even though it might not be easy to find somewhere to buy one in that place at that time.

I take the view that being able to use cash is a basic right, and is important for some people, and I hate the way that people wanting or needing to do so are penalised.

As far as London buses are concerned it is much better with them not taking cash.

It is safer for the driver and passengers as no risk of robbery.
Boarding is faster.
Vulnerable people (eg old and disabled) will generally be entitled to free travel via ENCTS.

The downside is someone from out of area being unaware that cash is not accepted on board. In the example of someone near a mainline station Oyster would be available from the accompanying underground station.

To be clear i’m Not advocating the removal of cash as a payment option on National Rail but it was been implemented on the buses in London pretty well.

FGW_DID · 27 Dec 2019

This is absolutely ludicrous! If you have a valid bank card, then use it at the TVM! Whatever next? “Sorry I don’t want to pay in cash or use my bank card, I want to use Bitcoins!”
Some people on this forum’s attitudes towards buying tickets and paying for travel is certainly at the very least, morally dubious and for some almost borders on incitement to Fare Evasion!

Hadders · 27 Dec 2019

FGW_DID said:
This is absolutely ludicrous! If you have a valid bank card, then use it at the TVM! Whatever next? “Sorry I don’t want to pay in cash or use my bank card, I want to use Bitcoins!”
Some people on this forum’s attitudes towards buying tickets and paying for travel is certainly at the very least, morally dubious and for some almost borders on incitement to Fare Evasion!

I’m sorry but the rail industry lists a number of payment methods which can be used. It is for the customer to decide which payment method they wish to use.

If the rail industry doesn’t wish to accept cash then they should remove it from the list of acceptable payment methods, in a similar way to what has happened with buses in London.

bkhtele · 27 Dec 2019

FGW_DID said:
This is absolutely ludicrous! If you have a valid bank card, then use it at the TVM! Whatever next? “Sorry I don’t want to pay in cash or use my bank card, I want to use Bitcoins!”
Some people on this forum’s attitudes towards buying tickets and paying for travel is certainly at the very least, morally dubious and for some almost borders on incitement to Fare Evasion!

I disagree until it is agreed that cash is not accepted, like London buses, customers have a right to pay by cash which some prefer.

Dai Corner · 27 Dec 2019

FGW_DID said:
This is absolutely ludicrous! If you have a valid bank card, then use it at the TVM! Whatever next? “Sorry I don’t want to pay in cash or use my bank card, I want to use Bitcoins!”
Some people on this forum’s attitudes towards buying tickets and paying for travel is certainly at the very least, morally dubious and for some almost borders on incitement to Fare Evasion!

This.

As a taxpayer and passenger, if I can help the railways run more efficiently and economically by paying by card I'm happy to do so.

Bletchleyite · 27 Dec 2019

Hadders said:
If the rail industry doesn’t wish to accept cash then they should remove it from the list of acceptable payment methods, in a similar way to what has happened with buses in London.

TBH, I think they should do this, or at least "Cash is accepted at staffed stations during opening hours only". There are enough alternatives out there now, including some available to all even if e.g. bankrupt or in the country illegally.

Nobody now HAS to use cash. People choose to use it largely out of intertia or because it has been obtained illegally e.g. cash-in-hand work.

Bletchleyite · 27 Dec 2019

yorkie said:
No other train company asks passengers to obtain a "promise to pay"

Do any still use PERTIS? I think SWR do? Isn't this basically the same thing - a PERTIS machine next to a card only TVM, but all in one awkward-to-use, poorly-designed unit?

yorkie · 27 Dec 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Do any still use PERTIS? I think SWR do? Isn't this basically the same thing - a PERTIS machine next to a card only TVM, but all in one awkward-to-use, poorly-designed unit?

A permit to travel isn't the same as a promise to pay, but there are similarities. I don't know if any companies still have them and actually keep them in working order.

FGW_DID · 27 Dec 2019

It shouldn’t matter what their preference is! The fact is if they have the means & the method I.e a valid bank card & a working TVM then that should be used.

I imagine if the TVM was cash only and not accepting cards, it would be amazing to see how swiftly some people would suddenly prefer paying by card!

yorkie · 27 Dec 2019

FGW_DID said:
This is absolutely ludicrous! If you have a valid bank card, then use it at the TVM! Whatever next? “Sorry I don’t want to pay in cash or use my bank card, I want to use Bitcoins!”
Some people on this forum’s attitudes towards buying tickets and paying for travel is certainly at the very least, morally dubious and for some almost borders on incitement to Fare Evasion!

This is nonsense.

Bitcoin is irrelevant; it's not a valid payment method.

Northern Rail say:

...the ticket machine at the station is card only and you wish to use cash, then you should obtain a promise to pay ticket from the machine and pay at the first available opportunity....

So you are effectively saying that someone who complies with Northern's policies is "evading" the fare.

Sorry to disappoint you but fare evasion is an inalienable term that cannot be redefined to meet a definition that you made up.

By all means lobby your MP and campaign for train companies to cease to accept cash if that's what you want to do.

But until then, you need to accept the fact that cash is a valid payment method.

FGW_DID · 27 Dec 2019

I’m not saying it’s not valid and can’t / shouldn’t be used.

if you have a valid method of payment, it should be used at the first opportunity, regardless of how you “prefer” to pay.

if Northern Rail want that as their policy, fine that’s their wish but this thread isn’t about Northern. It’s about the opening post and their hypothetical journey.

Paying only when challenged – cash vs card

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