• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Should Gov be sued over PRM failure?

Status
Not open for further replies.

35B

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2011
Messages
2,295
But in what way might that be unlawful? This thread is about legal action so there would have to be some kind of actual basis in law for this to be wrong beyond it being an example of poor practice.
Taking EMR as an example, I can see an argument for judicial review that the decision making by the government ran contrary to the legislation, and therefore ensured that compliant trains would not be available. EMT raised the issue of getting compliance sorted and were specifically told that it would be for the successor franchise to do. That franchise has only just started, and many trains are non compliant.

For those suggesting that the ROSCO(s) should have borne this cost, bear in mind that they were not being paid for the investment and various franchising decisions have made speculative investment in rolling stock very high risk. They also can’t take trains away to do compliance work without the agreement of the franchise which has hired the trains.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

35B

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2011
Messages
2,295
And one of the other ROSCOs would have tendered for new rolling stock in replacement of them.
To be hired by whom? You are ignoring the stringent control of franchises imposed by DfT, and therefore the inability of the TOCs or ROSCOs to respond sufficiently flexibly to avoid the deadline.

As it is, we have a missed deadline that was always arbitrary and uniquely British, and where the body that’s primarily culpable for missing it has had to take the political flak for that miss.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,386
Location
Bolton
Taking EMR as an example, I can see an argument for judicial review that the decision making by the government ran contrary to the legislation, and therefore ensured that compliant trains would not be available.
I agree that the award of contracts by the Department may be challenged in this way. It may even be that they ought to be. I couldn't begin to analyse the legal arguments that might be brought out though! Are there any time limits or other limitations that might hold this back?
 

ashkeba

Established Member
Joined
13 May 2019
Messages
2,171
Fine, go ahead and threaten to sue either the Government, the ToC's or the ROSCO's, and all that will happen is that they will pull all the non-compliant units off the line.
Result; very few trains running. Is that what you want?
Why would PRMs care if non-PRM trains get withdrawn? We can't use them anyway! It might concentrate PUM minds on actually fixing the problems!

And as for those who say accointability comes at the ballot... That has not generally worked well for minorities.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,675
Location
Redcar
Are there any time limits or other limitations that might hold this back?

You have three months from the date the grounds upon which the claim is made first arose. Though the relevant court can extend the time limit should they be satisfied that it is in the interest of justice to do so (i.e. there was some good reason you could meet the time limit like you were in hospital or something). I would suggest that the time limit has expired as it would run, in my view, from when it became clear that the decision made by the DfT to award the franchise to Abellio would lead to an issue which would be around the time of the award being made back in April.
 

ashkeba

Established Member
Joined
13 May 2019
Messages
2,171
Perhaps it would be appropriate for TOC’s to provide alternative, compliant, transport for PRM’s such as taxi’s, at their cost, if they run non-compliant rolling stock after the cut off date. Yes, they may well blame the DfT or rolling stock supplier for not providing the right rolling stock on time, but that becomes a legal argument between the TOC and whoever. The travelling public, able bodied and PRM, get what they should and the various organisations can argue the rights and wrongs - and who pays who - in court.
PRMs would not "get what they should" being shoved into 50mph low roof taxis instead of 100+mph walkable Intercity trains!
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,879
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
PRMs would not "get what they should" being shoved into 50mph low roof taxis instead of 100+mph walkable Intercity trains!

That was my point above - a taxi, particularly if it goes door to door, probably is a reasonable replacement for an all stations Pacer on an hourly rural service. But not, say, a Class 195 on a Windermere service on the WCML.
 

duffield

Established Member
Joined
31 Jul 2013
Messages
1,358
Location
East Midlands
Why would PRMs care if non-PRM trains get withdrawn? We can't use them anyway!

There are at least two reasons why PRMs *should* care if non-compliant trains are withdrawn.
- PRMs *may* be able to use non-compliant trains, depending on the nature of their issues, the nature of the non-compliance and the assistance available. For example, slam door trains are potentially usable by *all* PRMs if suitable assistance is available so it would frankly be ridiculous to withdraw such stock.
- Withdrawing non-compliant trains will potentially make compliant trains massively overcrowded so PRMs may not be able to get on them at all.

Everyone, PRM or non-PRM, will suffer if the trains are withdrawn, and there is no evidence that this will in any way speed up the plans already in place to replace or upgrade the non-compliant trains. And as this is very much a one-off type event, it's not really going to set a precedent for future such events to be handled better.

Useful additional practical steps that could and should be undertaken are temporary mitigations, such as extra assistance, running non-compliant units coupled with compliant units etc., and also regular monitoring of the remaining work to ensure any further delays are not allowed to escalate if humanly possible.
 

Greybeard33

Established Member
Joined
18 Feb 2012
Messages
4,266
Location
Greater Manchester
There are at least two reasons why PRMs *should* care if non-compliant trains are withdrawn.
- PRMs *may* be able to use non-compliant trains, depending on the nature of their issues, the nature of the non-compliance and the assistance available. For example, slam door trains are potentially usable by *all* PRMs if suitable assistance is available so it would frankly be ridiculous to withdraw such stock.
- Withdrawing non-compliant trains will potentially make compliant trains massively overcrowded so PRMs may not be able to get on them at all.
Indeed. I have hearing loss that makes many PA announcements unintelligible and so am a "PRM" in terms of the legislation. While I find the PIS screens on compliant trains helpful, I most certainly can and do travel on non-compliant trains. I would be severely disadvantaged if non-compliant trains were withdrawn without replacement, as, I suspect, would be many other people with various disabilities. PRM requirements are not solely for the benefit of wheelchair users.
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,398
Indeed. I have hearing loss that makes many PA announcements unintelligible and so am a "PRM" in terms of the legislation. While I find the PIS screens on compliant trains helpful, I most certainly can and do travel on non-compliant trains. I would be severely disadvantaged if non-compliant trains were withdrawn without replacement, as, I suspect, would be many other people with various disabilities. PRM requirements are not solely for the benefit of wheelchair users.
Circa 49 out of 50 PRMs aren't wheelchair users yet most railforums posters fixate on wheelchair users as being the majority of PRMs...
 

3141

Established Member
Joined
1 Apr 2012
Messages
1,772
Location
Whitchurch, Hampshire
Indeed. I have hearing loss that makes many PA announcements unintelligible and so am a "PRM" in terms of the legislation. While I find the PIS screens on compliant trains helpful, I most certainly can and do travel on non-compliant trains. I would be severely disadvantaged if non-compliant trains were withdrawn without replacement, as, I suspect, would be many other people with various disabilities. PRM requirements are not solely for the benefit of wheelchair users.

Circa 49 out of 50 PRMs aren't wheelchair users yet most railforums posters fixate on wheelchair users as being the majority of PRMs...

The terminology can be unhelpful. Since PRM stands for Persons with Reduced Mobility, it's not surprising that there's a focus on wheelchairs. When I was recovering from a broken ankle four years ago my mobility was certainly reduced but I don't think there was any modification to a train which was relevant to my situation. It may be that the number of people who really are adversely affected by the continuing operation of some non-compliant trains is tiny.
 

ashkeba

Established Member
Joined
13 May 2019
Messages
2,171


The terminology can be unhelpful. Since PRM stands for Persons with Reduced Mobility, it's not surprising that there's a focus on wheelchairs. When I was recovering from a broken ankle four years ago my mobility was certainly reduced but I don't think there was any modification to a train which was relevant to my situation. It may be that the number of people who really are adversely affected by the continuing operation of some non-compliant trains is tiny.
So eff them and eff the deadline, huh? Minorities go away, railways are not for you! :(
 

exile

Established Member
Joined
16 Jul 2011
Messages
1,336
Since the government has been re elected perhaps the voters should be sued as well.
 

ashkeba

Established Member
Joined
13 May 2019
Messages
2,171
Since the government has been re elected perhaps the voters should be sued as well.
The dispensation was not issued before the vote. Although I doubt PRMs vote in large numbers for the party that introduced the last harsh disability assessment process.
 

ashkeba

Established Member
Joined
13 May 2019
Messages
2,171
No, I did not say that. Your misrepresentation of what I posted, inventing things that are not there, doesn't do you any favours.
Please tell me how to interpret your post in a way that isn't basically abandoning a minority who have been lied to that trains would be accessible by 2020?
 

3141

Established Member
Joined
1 Apr 2012
Messages
1,772
Location
Whitchurch, Hampshire
Please tell me how to interpret your post in a way that isn't basically abandoning a minority who have been lied to that trains would be accessible by 2020?

Right, let’s see what I can do. I think the main difficulty will be that I am trying to look at these issues objectively, whereas your approach is more like “Those who are not for us are against us”. I’ll explain later why I think that interpretation is justified.

The National Implementation Plan for the Accessibility of the UK Rail System for Persons with Disabilities and Persons with Reduced Mobility defines disability as

“A physical or mental impairment that has a substantial and long-term adverse effect on a person’s ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities.”

That’s quite a broad definition, and it covers many conditions that do not actually make it difficult or impossible for a person to get onto a train and make a journey. But what’s involved in making trains PRM-TSI complaint? The document I referred to above lists:-

1. Audio-visual Passenger Information Systems;
2. Contrasting floors/handrails/handholds;
3. Tactile/palm-operable/contrasting door controls;
4. Priority seats;
5. Mandated numbers of wheelchair spaces;
6. An accessible toilet (if toilets are fitted); and
7. Compliant boarding ramps.

If a train hasn’t been modified, it probably won’t have the features above apart from nos. 1 and 3. No. 4 can possibly be provided by designating certain seats as “priority”, and I assume that no. 7 can be provided internally in place of a non-compliant ramp (though I don’t know whether trains do actually carry a ramp of either kind), or externally at stations. The biggest omission will be no. 6, the accessible toilet.

How many potential passengers will be completely unable to travel if the features in that list aren’t provided? A person who is totally blind, i.e. with no vision at all, wouldn’t benefit from the visual part of a passenger information system or from the contrasting floors, etc., whereas a person with very limited vision (who may technically be registered as blind) may benefit from those things. There are probably some people in each of those groups who can and do travel in non-compliant trains, while others don’t feel confident to do so. They may rely on the audio part of the PIS, in contrast to those with a hearing loss like Greybeard33 in post 132, who benefit more from the visual screens, though aren’t necessarily dependent on them. Persons whose disability consists of a mental impairment may not directly depend on any of the listed modifications, though they may be reassured by the audio and visual information, or by the availability of a priority seat.

The most obvious PRM modification is the provision of a toilet accessible and usable by somebody in a wheelchair, which has become a principal focus of discussion, as hwl observed in post 133. But by no means all wheelchair users will need a toilet in the course of a train journey, and they will be able to get on board many non-complaint trains with the assistance of a ramp and somebody to support their use of it. Bikeman78 referred to this in post 111, in a slightly different context.
There may not be a dedicated space for them once they’re there.

There’s also the fact that what’s going to happen on 1st January is not the end of compliance, but a postponement while trains that were expected to have been introduced by now are brought into service, enabling the withdrawal of a limited number of trains that were expected to have gone already. That may be tough if somebody’s service is entirely operated by those trains and they were relying on the new ones being available by now, but it won’t be a step backwards for most people, and perhaps not for anyone. The most problematic areas appear to be East Midlands and Greater Anglia, where non-compliant trains will remain in service the longest.

All those considerations led to my suggestion in post 134 that “It may be that the number of people who really are adversely affected by the continuing operation of some non-compliant trains is tiny”. There is nothing there that can be interpreted as “So eff them and eff the deadline, huh? Minorities go away, railways are not for you!” as you put it in post 135, and nothing that amounts to “basically abandoning a minority who have been lied to that trains would be accessible by 2020”, as you said in post 139.

What you’ve said there is one of the reasons for the way I characterised your approach in the first paragraph. Minorities have not been “abandoned”; but some of the people who depend on a train to have an accessible toilet will have to wait longer before they can make regular train journeys. Nor have they been “lied to”, which implies a deliberate case of deception. In post 124 you said

“Why would PRMs care if non-PRM trains get withdrawn? We can't use them anyway! It might concentrate PUM minds on actually fixing the problems!”

If members of a minority don’t wish to understand the consequences of withdrawing non-PRM trains, some members of the majority may start to feel unwilling to consider the minority’s needs. Such an outcome would not just disadvantage the minority, but would tend to damage everybody’s relationship with others.
 
Last edited:

modernrail

Member
Joined
26 Jul 2015
Messages
1,054
Right, let’s see what I can do. I think the main difficulty will be that I am trying to look at these issues objectively, whereas your approach is more like “Those who are not for us are against us”. I’ll explain later why I think that interpretation is justified.

The National Implementation Plan for the Accessibility of the UK Rail System for Persons with Disabilities and Persons with Reduced Mobility defines disability as

“A physical or mental impairment that has a substantial and long-term adverse effect on a person’s ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities.”

That’s quite a broad definition, and it covers many conditions that do not actually make it difficult or impossible for a person to get onto a train and make a journey. But what’s involved in making trains PRM-TSI complaint? The document I referred to above lists:-

1. Audio-visual Passenger Information Systems;
2. Contrasting floors/handrails/handholds;
3. Tactile/palm-operable/contrasting door controls;
4. Priority seats;
5. Mandated numbers of wheelchair spaces;
6. An accessible toilet (if toilets are fitted); and
7. Compliant boarding ramps.

If a train hasn’t been modified, it probably won’t have the features above apart from nos. 1 and 3. No. 4 can possibly be provided by designating certain seats as “priority”, and I assume that no. 7 can be provided internally in place of a non-compliant ramp (though I don’t know whether trains do actually carry a ramp of either kind), or externally at stations. The biggest omission will be no. 6, the accessible toilet.

How many potential passengers will be completely unable to travel if the features in that list aren’t provided? A person who is totally blind, i.e. with no vision at all, wouldn’t benefit from the visual part of a passenger information system or from the contrasting floors, etc., whereas a person with very limited vision (who may technically be registered as blind) may benefit from those things. There are probably some people in each of those groups who can and do travel in non-compliant trains, while others don’t feel confident to do so. They may rely on the audio part of the PIS, in contrast to those with a hearing loss like Greybeard33 in post 132, who benefit more from the visual screens, though aren’t necessarily dependent on them. Persons whose disability consists of a mental impairment may not directly depend on any of the listed modifications, though they may be reassured by the audio and visual information, or by the availability of a priority seat.

The most obvious PRM modification is the provision of a toilet accessible and usable by somebody in a wheelchair, which has become a principal focus of discussion, as hwl observed in post 133. But by no means all wheelchair users will need a toilet in the course of a train journey, and they will be able to get on board many non-complaint trains with the assistance of a ramp and somebody to support their use of it. Bikeman78 referred to this in post 111, in a slightly different context.
There may not be a dedicated space for them once they’re there.

There’s also the fact that what’s going to happen on 1st January is not the end of compliance, but a postponement while trains that were expected to have been introduced by now are brought into service, enabling the withdrawal of a limited number of trains that were expected to have gone already. That may be tough if somebody’s service is entirely operated by those trains and they were relying on the new ones being available by now, but it won’t be a step backwards for most people, and perhaps not for anyone. The most problematic areas appear to be East Midlands and Greater Anglia, where non-compliant trains will remain in service the longest.

All those considerations led to my suggestion in post 134 that “It may be that the number of people who really are adversely affected by the continuing operation of some non-compliant trains is tiny”. There is nothing there that can be interpreted as “So eff them and eff the deadline, huh? Minorities go away, railways are not for you!” as you put it in post 135, and nothing that amounts to “basically abandoning a minority who have been lied to that trains would be accessible by 2020”, as you said in post 139.

What you’ve said there is one of the reasons for the way I characterised your approach in the first paragraph. Minorities have not been “abandoned”; but some of the people who depend on a train to have an accessible toilet will have to wait longer before they can make regular train journeys. Nor have they been “lied to”, which implies a deliberate case of deception. In post 124 you said

“Why would PRMs care if non-PRM trains get withdrawn? We can't use them anyway! It might concentrate PUM minds on actually fixing the problems!”

If members of a minority don’t wish to understand the consequences of withdrawing non-PRM trains, some members of the majority may start to feel unwilling to consider the minority’s needs. Such an outcome would not just disadvantage the minority, but would tend to damage everybody’s relationship with others.
That last paragraph is a little chilling! It also ignores the fact that no minority is asking for such a thing (as far as I am aware). If they were to take legal action a court would a range of remedies available to it and so those minorities, as we clumsily call people who are people, would not have to ask for such a thing to take action. There appears to be a view from some on here that the only remedies could be withdrawel of trains or a fine. That is not the case, courts are able to be much more flexible than that, for instance issuing an order requiring undertakings to be given that certain things will be done within certain periods. Wherever possible the courts seek resolutions, often after proceedings are issued but before pre-action. Most cases are settled this way or even earlier through dispute resolution (arbitration, mediation etc).

I notice a warning now comes up on the National Rail planner that certain trains may not be PRM compliant and suggests calling a number to find out which. Northern should probably add a line that even if it is due to be a PRM compliant train, it may still evaporate into planned or unplanned cancelation thin air.
 

RealTrains07

Established Member
Joined
28 Feb 2019
Messages
1,760
the problem isn't the train manufacturers.

new rolling stock orders have been compliant since the orders were made.
the problem is old stock refurbishments, which is purely a ROSCO issue.

this stock is basically a depreciating asset with limited life expectancy,and the ROSCO's want maximum revenue (minimal expenditure)from them.
Yes and the fact that new stock doesnt work which delays train crew being trained keeping non compliant trains in service?? Its a ROSCO issue both with new and old stock that resulted in not meeting deadline
 
Last edited:

RealTrains07

Established Member
Joined
28 Feb 2019
Messages
1,760
The problem is that DfT has always wanted to pull the strings on what rolling stock is to be used where, although the grip has loosened a bit now. Also they (more understandably) don't want the taxpayer to have to pay through the franchises for modifying trains with only few years remaining life.
But its not the governments fault that the deadline wont be met by TOCs in time, choice of rolling stock or not. Its a ROSCO blame.

anyway the government has way to much involvement in what is meant to be a privatised system?
 
Last edited:

RealTrains07

Established Member
Joined
28 Feb 2019
Messages
1,760
It’s not just manufacturers tho. There’s no new train deliveries running late in the EMR franchise but the HSTs still need dispensation. That’s purely down to the government not allowing EMT to start the process of modification/replacement due to their crappy franchise system
True. This was a major planning error on the government behalf. Although the stock to replace the HSTs wouldn’t have been available while EMT still had the franchise??

Not all blame can be placed at the governments door considering neither or EMR or EMT (if they continued) would never have been able to meet the deadline anyway
 

ashkeba

Established Member
Joined
13 May 2019
Messages
2,171
Right, let’s see what I can do. I think the main difficulty will be that I am trying to look at these issues objectively, whereas your approach is more like “Those who are not for us are against us”. I’ll explain later why I think that interpretation is justified.

The National Implementation Plan for the Accessibility of the UK Rail System for Persons with Disabilities and Persons with Reduced Mobility defines disability as

“A physical or mental impairment that has a substantial and long-term adverse effect on a person’s ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities.”

That’s quite a broad definition, and it covers many conditions that do not actually make it difficult or impossible for a person to get onto a train and make a journey. But what’s involved in making trains PRM-TSI complaint? The document I referred to above lists:-

1. Audio-visual Passenger Information Systems;
2. Contrasting floors/handrails/handholds;
3. Tactile/palm-operable/contrasting door controls;
4. Priority seats;
5. Mandated numbers of wheelchair spaces;
6. An accessible toilet (if toilets are fitted); and
7. Compliant boarding ramps.

If a train hasn’t been modified, it probably won’t have the features above apart from nos. 1 and 3. No. 4 can possibly be provided by designating certain seats as “priority”, and I assume that no. 7 can be provided internally in place of a non-compliant ramp (though I don’t know whether trains do actually carry a ramp of either kind), or externally at stations. The biggest omission will be no. 6, the accessible toilet.

How many potential passengers will be completely unable to travel if the features in that list aren’t provided? A person who is totally blind, i.e. with no vision at all, wouldn’t benefit from the visual part of a passenger information system or from the contrasting floors, etc., whereas a person with very limited vision (who may technically be registered as blind) may benefit from those things. There are probably some people in each of those groups who can and do travel in non-compliant trains, while others don’t feel confident to do so. They may rely on the audio part of the PIS, in contrast to those with a hearing loss like Greybeard33 in post 132, who benefit more from the visual screens, though aren’t necessarily dependent on them. Persons whose disability consists of a mental impairment may not directly depend on any of the listed modifications, though they may be reassured by the audio and visual information, or by the availability of a priority seat.

The most obvious PRM modification is the provision of a toilet accessible and usable by somebody in a wheelchair, which has become a principal focus of discussion, as hwl observed in post 133. But by no means all wheelchair users will need a toilet in the course of a train journey, and they will be able to get on board many non-complaint trains with the assistance of a ramp and somebody to support their use of it. Bikeman78 referred to this in post 111, in a slightly different context.
There may not be a dedicated space for them once they’re there.

There’s also the fact that what’s going to happen on 1st January is not the end of compliance, but a postponement while trains that were expected to have been introduced by now are brought into service, enabling the withdrawal of a limited number of trains that were expected to have gone already. That may be tough if somebody’s service is entirely operated by those trains and they were relying on the new ones being available by now, but it won’t be a step backwards for most people, and perhaps not for anyone. The most problematic areas appear to be East Midlands and Greater Anglia, where non-compliant trains will remain in service the longest.

All those considerations led to my suggestion in post 134 that “It may be that the number of people who really are adversely affected by the continuing operation of some non-compliant trains is tiny”. There is nothing there that can be interpreted as “So eff them and eff the deadline, huh? Minorities go away, railways are not for you!” as you put it in post 135, and nothing that amounts to “basically abandoning a minority who have been lied to that trains would be accessible by 2020”, as you said in post 139.

What you’ve said there is one of the reasons for the way I characterised your approach in the first paragraph. Minorities have not been “abandoned”; but some of the people who depend on a train to have an accessible toilet will have to wait longer before they can make regular train journeys. Nor have they been “lied to”, which implies a deliberate case of deception. In post 124 you said

“Why would PRMs care if non-PRM trains get withdrawn? We can't use them anyway! It might concentrate PUM minds on actually fixing the problems!”

If members of a minority don’t wish to understand the consequences of withdrawing non-PRM trains, some members of the majority may start to feel unwilling to consider the minority’s needs. Such an outcome would not just disadvantage the minority, but would tend to damage everybody’s relationship with others.
People can lie from negligence not ony deliberate.

The above still reads to me like justifying abandoning minorities (dismissing them as "tiny" and so on), now backed by a threat at the end. Chilling, as another says.
 

ashkeba

Established Member
Joined
13 May 2019
Messages
2,171
But its not the governments fault that the deadline wont be met by TOCs in time, choice of rolling stock or not. Its a ROSCO blame.

anyway the government has way to much involvement in what is meant to be a privatised system?
Government is regulator. Government seems to be rewarding companies not spending to meet the regulations on time by issuing dispensations. This teaches them that they need not rush to comply in future either. This time it's PRMs. Maybe next time it will be something other passengers care about more.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,008
Location
Yorks
That last paragraph is a little chilling! It also ignores the fact that no minority is asking for such a thing (as far as I am aware). If they were to take legal action a court would a range of remedies available to it and so those minorities, as we clumsily call people who are people, would not have to ask for such a thing to take action. There appears to be a view from some on here that the only remedies could be withdrawel of trains or a fine. That is not the case, courts are able to be much more flexible than that, for instance issuing an order requiring undertakings to be given that certain things will be done within certain periods. Wherever possible the courts seek resolutions, often after proceedings are issued but before pre-action. Most cases are settled this way or even earlier through dispute resolution (arbitration, mediation etc).

I notice a warning now comes up on the National Rail planner that certain trains may not be PRM compliant and suggests calling a number to find out which. Northern should probably add a line that even if it is due to be a PRM compliant train, it may still evaporate into planned or unplanned cancelation thin air.

It is true that a court might have a range of options available to it in the event of action. Unfortunately, Courts can be unpredictable in how they apply the law, just as companies can be unpredictable in how they react to the unpredictability of the outcomes of court action, or make up any costs passed on.

I guess the question is whether we want a rail industry that will try and match capacity to demand with the resources it has, even if it takes a bit longer to get to compliance, or do we want an industry more intent on covering its arse and less concerned about losing capacity, to the detriment of passengers. I suspect that if we prefer the former, we should avoid legal action.
 

3141

Established Member
Joined
1 Apr 2012
Messages
1,772
Location
Whitchurch, Hampshire
That last paragraph is a little chilling! It also ignores the fact that no minority is asking for such a thing (as far as I am aware). .

As far as I know, no minority as a group is so foolish as to ask for non-PRM trains to be withdrawn, but if you look at certain earlier posts on this thread (I referred to #124 in my long post) you'll find individuals who seem to think it would be a good idea. My last paragraph looked at the possible consequences of throwing such thoughts around.

People can lie from negligence not only deliberate.

The above still reads to me like justifying abandoning minorities (dismissing them as "tiny" and so on), now backed by a threat at the end. Chilling, as another says.

Your reaction doesn't surprise me.
 

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,822
Government is regulator. Government seems to be rewarding companies not spending to meet the regulations on time by issuing dispensations. This teaches them that they need not rush to comply in future either. This time it's PRMs. Maybe next time it will be something other passengers care about more.


I dont think they are rewarding anybody - quite simply if they didnt give a dispensation for the trains then there would be many many trains withdrawn and skeletal services all over the country.

Its damn right pathetic that it has come to this and i agree some form of punishment should be handed out for not getting it done on time but we are where we are - do you want a train to run or not?
 

modernrail

Member
Joined
26 Jul 2015
Messages
1,054
I dont think they are rewarding anybody - quite simply if they didnt give a dispensation for the trains then there would be many many trains withdrawn and skeletal services all over the country.

Its damn right pathetic that it has come to this and i agree some form of punishment should be handed out for not getting it done on time but we are where we are - do you want a train to run or not?
A skeletal service? You lucky lucky *******, I grew up on a railway station platform because Northern couldn't be arsed to send a train to pick me up.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top