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Amsterdam Eurostar

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RT4038

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They still do checks on arrival for train 9057 from Marne-la-Vallée–Chessy so that's not necessarily a reason.

No doubt the risks have been assessed between frequent regular services from major cities, and those of a once daily special service from a children's resort, mostly booked as part of a return package, and arrangements made accordingly. The world is not black and white, and just because something works in one (unusual) situation does not mean it is appropriate in another.
 
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paul1609

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There are already customs (as distinct from immigration) checkpoints at the UK arrival stations for Eurostar.



Ebbsfleet is possible as things stand, but Ashford can’t take 374s and the Netherlands can’t take 373s.
Ashford International has now been cleared (again) for 374s, the first 374 in passenger service was a morning service to Paris on 6th December.
Apparently we will get an additional train to/from Paris in March as a result. I understood that the reason the Amsterdam service won't stop is to keep the journey time from London down.
 

S-Car-Go

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Ashford International has now been cleared (again) for 374s, the first 374 in passenger service was a morning service to Paris on 6th December.
Apparently we will get an additional train to/from Paris in March as a result. I understood that the reason the Amsterdam service won't stop is to keep the journey time from London down.
You might get 1 serving Ebbsfleet/Ashford once they have 4-5 per day running, which is the ultimate aim.
It's good the 374s get Ashford access now, this will greatly improve service resilience. If there was a set failure on a 373 and only a 374 available, the Ashford stop would be cancelled and the passengers had to make their way in to London to go all the way back out on another service. Must have been very frustrating as a passenger. It was, frankly, embarrassing as a (ex) member of staff.
 

cle

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I hope that eventually a full range of two-speed services, like in Japan, with different pricing, could be available on the Brussels route:

London - Ebbsfleet - Ashford - Calais - Lille - Brussels
London - Brussels - Rotterdam - Amsterdam
 

BigCj34

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I hope that eventually a full range of two-speed services, like in Japan, with different pricing, could be available on the Brussels route:

London - Ebbsfleet - Ashford - Calais - Lille - Brussels
London - Brussels - Rotterdam - Amsterdam

Well we do have that sort of thing here. Anyway it seems a reasonable idea, considering the intermediate stations are underused for international services, especially Calais Frethun. Could also be the way to go for a channel tunnel metro service to London, with higher seating density, provision for standing room (assuming that is permitted under high speed and channel tunnel regulations) and season ticket prices as well.

Would be interesting to see what the open access channel tunnel does for Paris services as well, doesn't appear to be any updates there.
 

paul1609

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I hope that eventually a full range of two-speed services, like in Japan, with different pricing, could be available on the Brussels route:

London - Ebbsfleet - Ashford - Calais - Lille - Brussels
London - Brussels - Rotterdam - Amsterdam

The problem is for most practical short journeys Eurostar can't compete with Car/Eurotunnel on convenience or price.
Many people don't realise that Ashford to Brussels is only about 180 miles on normally lightly trafficked motorways about 3 1/2 hours including le Shuttle.
Its about the same time and distance wise as Birmingham International from Ashford.
Similarly Lille is only about 110 miles about the same as Milton Keynes.
 

Ianno87

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You might get 1 serving Ebbsfleet/Ashford once they have 4-5 per day running, which is the ultimate aim.
It's good the 374s get Ashford access now, this will greatly improve service resilience. If there was a set failure on a 373 and only a 374 available, the Ashford stop would be cancelled and the passengers had to make their way in to London to go all the way back out on another service. Must have been very frustrating as a passenger. It was, frankly, embarrassing as a (ex) member of staff.

Once you get that sort of frequency, there'll naturally be relatively quieter/busier trains in the day, so services with capacity to absorb the passengers from an extra stop.
 

BigCj34

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The problem is for most practical short journeys Eurostar can't compete with Car/Eurotunnel on convenience or price.
Many people don't realise that Ashford to Brussels is only about 180 miles on normally lightly trafficked motorways about 3 1/2 hours including le Shuttle.
Its about the same time and distance wise as Birmingham International from Ashford.
Similarly Lille is only about 110 miles about the same as Milton Keynes.

It's certainly a lot quicker, price maybe not always the most competitive.
 

cle

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The problem is for most practical short journeys Eurostar can't compete with Car/Eurotunnel on convenience or price.
Many people don't realise that Ashford to Brussels is only about 180 miles on normally lightly trafficked motorways about 3 1/2 hours including le Shuttle.
Its about the same time and distance wise as Birmingham International from Ashford.
Similarly Lille is only about 110 miles about the same as Milton Keynes.
I don't think they compete in every way though for the same journey times - people don't make the drive too often, or alone.

But having a slow and fast pattern makes sense to open up more folks to the Brussels capacity, but keep the Amsterdam services fast - with connections at Brussels of course. The other issue is that the demand out of Ebbsfleet and Ashford will always be far more towards Paris, but there you go.
 

BluePenguin

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But having a slow and fast pattern makes sense to open up more folks to the Brussels capacity, but keep the Amsterdam services fast - with connections at Brussels of course. The other issue is that the demand out of Ebbsfleet and Ashford will always be far more towards Paris, but there you go.

Amsterdam services are nice and fast. However they are not that convenient to those of us living in Kent who either have to double back on ourselves to London (such as I have done) or change at Lille or Brussels. There could be a potentially huge demand for journeys avoiding this considerable inconvenience. Until a few services are trialled stopping at a Ebbsfleet or Ashford, it’s not possible to tell.

Apart from couples and business people, I’m not quite sure what target market make up this larger demand to Paris you speak of? It is not known for being the first choice exciting holiday destination for groups of friends or families.
 

mad_rich

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But as far as I'm aware on the return journey from the French resort towns people are made to de-train and Lille and checked there? Though I've not taken that journey myself.

No. Ski trains are security & passport checked at departure point in both directions (with the exception that Aime La Plagne doesn't see any northbound service at all), so it's straight to London.

It's the South of France trains that are not checked until Lille northbound.
 

cle

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Amsterdam services are nice and fast. However they are not that convenient to those of us living in Kent who either have to double back on ourselves to London (such as I have done) or change at Lille or Brussels. There could be a potentially huge demand for journeys avoiding this considerable inconvenience. Until a few services are trialled stopping at a Ebbsfleet or Ashford, it’s not possible to tell.

Apart from couples and business people, I’m not quite sure what target market make up this larger demand to Paris you speak of? It is not known for being the first choice exciting holiday destination for groups of friends or families.
Friends and families don't go on holiday to Paris?!

The frequency from London to Paris vs Brussels (and passenger numbers, bearing in mind Brussels covers Lille too) would beg to differ. And business travel keeps Eurostar afloat - especially Brussels!

And ever heard of in-bound - i.e. Parisians (of which there are many more than Brussels folk) visiting London, for work/play?

Wow.
 

DavidGrain

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According to some estimates, London is now the 6th largest French city with estimates between 300,000 and 400,000
 

Gadget88

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I look forward to trying Rotterdam from London as a day visit next year once they sort out the return leg. Previously it’s only properly possible with Paris, Lille and Brussels.
 

Struner

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NS isn’t a partner in €* though? So not for them to decide? Bring it on anyway! & scrap all flights from Schiphol to Bremen, Brussel, Parijs & the likes.
 

AlexNL

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NS are not a Eurostar shareholder but they are a major logistical partner when it comes to Eurostar operations between Amsterdam and Brussels. They supply the paths (Eurostar run under the NS license in NL as far as I'm aware), they employ the staff and they handle things like distribution of tickets and servicing of the trains at the Watergraafsmeer TMD.

Similar sounds about expanding the service can be heard from Eurostar's top brass:
At the moment we’re operating three trains a day, but we expect to increase that to five within eighteen months.
 

jamesontheroad

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If only it had been possible to route the AMS Eurostar via the railway station at Schiphol. KLM has already started code-sharing and marketing some Thalys services in their timetable: if they had become a partner in this venture you could easily have reduced the number of their feeder flights LHR-AMS.
 

AlexNL

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The problem with Schiphol is space: there's simply no place to build the facilities needed for Eurostar, and the station is fairly busy so it can't afford to have to miss a platform for 45+ minutes.

A Codesharing agreement could involve sending people to Amsterdam or Rotterdam to have them go through security there. If you're coming from, say, Hilversum you might as well go to Amsterdam. If you come from Leiden or Utrecht, Rotterdam isn't far away either.

The only people who would really benefit from a stop at Schiphol are those who have Schiphol as their origin/destination. And those may as well use IC Direct between Schiphol and Rotterdam.
 

Alfonso

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Since schipol is a hub airport, it would allow people transiting to take the train on to London too
The problem with Schiphol is space: there's simply no place to build the facilities needed for Eurostar, and the station is fairly busy so it can't afford to have to miss a platform for 45+ minutes.

A Codesharing agreement could involve sending people to Amsterdam or Rotterdam to have them go through security there. If you're coming from, say, Hilversum you might as well go to Amsterdam. If you come from Leiden or Utrecht, Rotterdam isn't far away either.

The only people who would really benefit from a stop at Schiphol are those who have Schiphol as their origin/destination. And those may as well use IC Direct between Schiphol and Rotterdam.
 

jamesontheroad

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The only people who would really benefit from a stop at Schiphol are those who have Schiphol as their origin/destination. And those may as well use IC Direct between Schiphol and Rotterdam.

Since schipol is a hub airport, it would allow people transiting to take the train on to London too

Comments about track space are noted. It’s doubly regrettable because no airline in Europe hubs like KLM does. They are second to none in scheduling banks of flights into AMS from destinations all over Europe (about fifteen airports in Britain alone have aircraft night stopping in order to get a 0600-0700 flight into Schiphol) into long haul connections.
 

edwin_m

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Comments about track space are noted. It’s doubly regrettable because no airline in Europe hubs like KLM does. They are second to none in scheduling banks of flights into AMS from destinations all over Europe (about fifteen airports in Britain alone have aircraft night stopping in order to get a 0600-0700 flight into Schiphol) into long haul connections.
Yet another downside of the Tunnel security rules, especially as KLM is very keen on trying to be greener, having recently taken a block booking on Thalys to replace one of their Amsterdam-Brussels flights.

However, even if they did the same with an optimally-timed London Eurostar, a 30min check-in at St Pancras, 4hr on the train then at least 1hr for transfer and security at Schipol isn't going to be competitive with a 1hr check-in at a London airport, 1hr flight time and 1hr for airside transfer at Schipol. Even worse for non-London airports. Getting to St Pancras for an 0600ish train isn't easy either, as most suburban train services don't start early enough, whereas it's easy enough to drive to an airport at that time.
 

Struner

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€* - or any other setup for that matter - doesn’t offer decent connections to other places in the UK apart from London.
( & there are plenty of them! ).
I for one can’t be bothered with them if I want to go somewhere in the UK. I have been to London - many moons ago - so no need to get messed up there again.
I’ll fly & when I go to visit my relatives in the Borders I’ll go by car & ferry.
& if the UK wants to encourage traveling by train by people who arrive by €* they’ll have to sort that out.
(BTW, the same goes for Paris of course, but then differently :E )
 

Gadget88

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Eurostar was originally meant to stop at Antwerp and Schiphol. So this isn’t true obviously it’s been looked at and it’s one for the future. For example with Antwerp it could be one of the other stations in the city it stops at.
 

S-Car-Go

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NS isn’t a partner in €* though? So not for them to decide? Bring it on anyway! & scrap all flights from Schiphol to Bremen, Brussel, Parijs & the likes.
Soon will be if Thalys do their future merger with €*, which was announced in Oct. NS have a share in Thalys, so presumably they'll get a slice of the big high speed train pie. Pity the UK government sold off their portion eh?
 

AlexNL

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Eurostar was originally meant to stop at Antwerp and Schiphol. So this isn’t true obviously it’s been looked at and it’s one for the future. For example with Antwerp it could be one of the other stations in the city it stops at.
Antwerp faces the same problem as Schiphol: where are you going to do the security checks? While it might not be completely impossible (I have seen some speculative drawings) I highly doubt that they'd we'll see stops at Antwerp anytime soon. Set-down perhaps, but not pick-up.

Soon will be if Thalys do their future merger with €*, which was announced in Oct. NS have a share in Thalys, so presumably they'll get a slice of the big high speed train pie. Pity the UK government sold off their portion eh?
NS do not own any shares in Thalys, either. DB held 10% of shares in Thalys but sold those to SNCF a few years ago.
 

gingerheid

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I think, sadly, that €* really only comes into it's own against short-haul airline if you compare city centre to city centre. If the journey involves an airport anyway flying is likely to win!

I think it is likely that the flights that might be cut as a result of the full service will either be from City airport, or will be operated by mainly point to point airlines.
 

tasky

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If only it had been possible to route the AMS Eurostar via the railway station at Schiphol. KLM has already started code-sharing and marketing some Thalys services in their timetable: if they had become a partner in this venture you could easily have reduced the number of their feeder flights LHR-AMS.

The trains do run through Schiphol as the high speed line to Amsterdam is routed through there, but they don't stop. It might be possible to add a stop in the future when return services start; the current setup isn't really compatible with an air-rail concept as everyone gets off the train Brussels with their bags for checks on the London-bound service, but air-rail is about handing in your bags as checked luggage at your first station and then not having to think about them until you arrive.

It would be nice, but the fact journeys to the UK require an extra passport check and security check complicate the situation somewhat.

If Eurostar services to the south of France are ever regularised it would be nice to see them call at Paris CDG (which is located on LGV-interconnexion) too, there are still a lot of connecting flights there from the UK which could be eliminated. That might be a good way of filling the the trains, though it would only be as far as Paris.

Of course, having to add physical facilities to every station the trains calls at is the biggest barrier to any of this.
 

paul1609

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€* - or any other setup for that matter - doesn’t offer decent connections to other places in the UK apart from London.
( & there are plenty of them! ).
I for one can’t be bothered with them if I want to go somewhere in the UK. I have been to London - many moons ago - so no need to get messed up there again.
I’ll fly & when I go to visit my relatives in the Borders I’ll go by car & ferry.
& if the UK wants to encourage traveling by train by people who arrive by €* they’ll have to sort that out.
(BTW, the same goes for Paris of course, but then differently :E )
I'd guess that your experience is somewhat out of date. In London €* arrives at St Pancras. From there and Kings Cross which is adjacent its possible to get direct trains to about half of mainland UK (Example Destinations Brighton, Gatwick Airport, Cambridge, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Inverness, Luton Airport, Leicester, Derby, Sheffield, Leeds). Euston station which serves Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool and Glasgow and the Irish ferries is about 10 minutes walk or a short cab ride away.
The infrastructure and services are all in place and London is a much better connected city than Paris.

The issue is that whilst the low cost airlines operate the rail market for through London travel by train is diverse and minimal which prevents any extensive through ticketing and marketing.

Of course the Low Cost airlines are out of the influence of UK even after Independence Day although it remains to be seen what will happen to airlines who are largely physically based in the UK but for tax purposes are based in the EUs off shore tax haven.
 
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