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Petition to bring back the buffet on GWR

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irish_rail

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I would suggest as has been mentioned up thread, if everyone on here who is southern based write to our local MP (I already have) , this would be the best way to focus minds at DFT and GWR. If MPs get enough emails and.letters about this subject they will have to begin asking questions. So drop your MP a line if you want something to get done about this situation , and maybe point out that LNER get buffets for much shorter journeys.
 
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Amlag

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I would suggest as has been mentioned up thread, if everyone on here who is southern based write to our local MP (I already have) , this would be the best way to focus minds at DFT and GWR. If MPs get enough emails and.letters about this subject they will have to begin asking questions. So drop your MP a line if you want something to get done about this situation , and maybe point out that LNER get buffets for much shorter journeys.


I agree. MPs are now newly charged to making a difference and new boy Sec. of Transport Shapps
will need to initiate positive action and further Government aims to remove some of the far too centralised decision making power from the DfT.
Nevertheless GWR HQ Managers admit to receiving many complaints about the current IET Trolley refreshment system and are aware of the shortcomings.
There is, it seems from on train experiences, however much that could be done at the sharp end to improve the service ..but this requires pro-active, strong and encouraging to staff Managers at local level.
 

jimm

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I completely agree. In the end GWR should have been allowed to order a different spec of IET for these services - with a large buffet, perhaps even a sit-down restaurant car DB-style, different seats and more luggage space (e.g. for surfboards). It was the DfT that insisted they had to be the same as the others. The Cornish services are different from basically everything else in the UK other than the Caledonian Sleeper, the Highland Chieftain and the Aberdeen one - a very long distance IC taking well over 4 hours where most people actually take the through journey. They need a totally different service model to a semifast to Bristol which really isn't that much different from a Chiltern service, or TPE or something.

(The long-distance XCs don't really count as people don't tend to do the whole journey on them, whereas a significant number of users of the Cornish services, Chieftain/Aberdeen and Caledonian Sleeper do).

FWIW I was very displeased that I was not even offered a cup of tea all the way from Paddington to Penzance. And I've done that twice. On a journey like that I would like 3-4 cups.

As has been pointed out here countless times now the 802s were not just ordered for West Country services, and the low-density HSTs supposedly dedicated to the West Country services had a habit of turning up all over the place.

where most people actually take the through journey

Oh really. Do you have any actual numbers to support this claim?

I have a sneaking suspicion that rather a lot of the passengers on trains between London and Cornwall are actually going to and from a certain city just east of the River Tamar, with a population half that of the whole of Cornwall, and other places in Devon or Somerset, for which the Cornish trains provide a substantial part of their hourly train service to and from London.

Or have I just missed all the reports about hundreds of passengers being left behind by every IET to Penzance when it reaches Plymouth and the rear set is taken off?

If the passengers on the trains to and from Paddington were all going to and from Cornwall, I would have expected the financial and timetable modelling for Cornwall would have come up with rather different results from the ones that shaped the new timetable there, with different decisions made about what trains to order and cascade, how to use them and what facilities were needed to service and stable them.

I agree. MPs are now newly charged to making a difference and new boy Sec. of Transport Shapps
will need to initiate positive action and further Government aims to remove some of the far too centralised decision making power from the DfT.

Dream on... the only direction decision-making and power in England has moved under just about any recent Government has been to the centre. The Tories fought tooth and nail against devolution for Wales and Scotland, local government's ability to raise its own money has been declining for years and metro mayors have no real power either, as we have seen with their impotent huffing and puffing about Northern and WMR in recent days. Shapps will be rather more worried over what to do about HS2 than he will about provision of tea and coffee on GWR, however many letters MPs send him.
 
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irish_rail

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As has been pointed out here countless times now the 802s were not just ordered for West Country services, and the low-density HSTs supposedly dedicated to the West Country services had a habit of turning up all over the place.



Oh really. Do you have any actual numbers to support this claim?

I have a sneaking suspicion that rather a lot of the passengers on trains between London and Cornwall are actually going to and from a certain city just east of the River Tamar, with a population half that of the whole of Cornwall, and other places in Devon or Somerset, for which the Cornish trains provide a substantial part of their hourly train service to and from London.

Or have I just missed all the reports about hundreds of passengers being left behind by every IET to Penzance when it reaches Plymouth and the rear set is taken off?

If the passengers on the trains to and from Paddington were all going to and from Cornwall, I would have expected the financial and timetable modelling for Cornwall would have come up with rather different results from the ones that shaped the new timetable there, with different decisions made about what trains to order and cascade, how to use them and what facilities were needed to service and stable them.



Dream on... the only direction decision-making and power in England has moved under just about any recent Government has been to the centre. The Tories fought tooth and nail against devolution for Wales and Scotland, local government's ability to raise its own money has been declining for years and metro mayors have no real power either, as we have seen with their impotent huffing and puffing about Northern and WMR in recent days. Shapps will be rather more worried over what to do about HS2 than he will about provision of tea and coffee on GWR, however many letters MPs send him.
No jimm, I don't think you understand how it works. For example, Plymouth Labour MP Luke Pollard was on the transport select committee and hopefully will be again going forward. He then directly quizzes the DFT and ministers over things such as buffet provision. MPs have more sway than you may think trust me. Similarly, any MP can raise questions in the house . Look at the furore over pacer trains in the north. Political pressure certainly played a part in getting them scrapped. And political pressure will be the way forward to give south west passengers a better deal on GWR, whether that be more 9 car sets sent this way, or pressure to bring back buffets.
 

Facing Back

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I am a first group share holder. The losses on catering are now much less as there is less overheads involved with a trolley than a buffet (mainly due to less stock, concentrating on best-selling lines, greater sales and less waste of unsold products)
However, the service isn’t perfect. It really needs to be better organised. XC manage their trolley service much better. No one waits hours on a XC train, even a 7 coach HST. I suspect this is due to XC catering staff being paid a lot more and having targets. And XC are not known for having empty trains. But XC will always come down the train if they can, and announce they are at the end of coach F if they can’t. GWR really need to learn lessons from XC on trolley operation
Wow - XC being better at catering than somebody else. The last half dozen XC trains I've caught, a selection of routes and both Voyagers and HSTs have all had no catering at all. I had pretty much assumed that they had stopped bothering and made sure I could get to a shop before boarding. I did write to XC about this and received a reply that the Voyagers had no space for catering which I struggled to believe but couldn't be bothered to argue with.
 

sor

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As a semi regular user of the train service (and yes, I do travel beyond that "city east of the Tamar") I'm not sure where the fuss is. I had many opportunities to do the travelling chef but never did, because after spending a not-insignificant sum of money for the ticket, I wasn't about to spend that much more again on food, even if someone actually cooked it there and then. I could wait until I got to London or Cornwall. I think at most I bought the odd bottle of coke from the buffet when in standard

The 1st trolley service seems fine (I was offered sandwiches FOC on the way back up, mid-morning service - is this normal? I don't remember that in the HST days!). Not sure I'd want to be one of the customer hosts trying to heave through standard class on one of the packed Cornish services though.
 

Goldfish62

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The 1st buffet service seems fine (I was offered sandwiches FOC on the way back up, mid-morning service - is this normal? I don't remember that in the HST days!). Not sure I'd want to be one of the customer hosts trying to heave through standard class on one of the packed Cornish services though.
The sandwiches have been around for quite a while and were certainly a feature in HST days.
 

Master29

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I guess I don't travel enough in 1st then! Certainly never got offered free sandwiches before
It depends how far back you're willing to go to experience that. You could mean over the last 40+ years in which case you'd be correct.
 

43096

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As I pointed out, Travelling Chef wasn't viable in reality, never mind potentially, which is why GWR dropped it.

Simple? Travelling Chef was hardly complicated fare to produce.

And your Germanic consistency comes with a very large price tag attached - three years ago, DB clocked up losses of the best part of 80 million Euros providing onboard catering. They have made a policy decision to take that financial hit. Others are not so willing.
DB take the view that catering is part of the product they offer and is a unique selling point for getting passengers to use rail.

Here we know the cost of everything and the value of nothing so we continue the race to the bottom in terms of quality. Everything on what was once the IC network is becoming more and more dumbed down. I will welcome the day that the punters wake up and realise they are being ripped off and decide not to use the railway.
 

theironroad

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DB take the view that catering is part of the product they offer and is a unique selling point for getting passengers to use rail.

Here we know the cost of everything and the value of nothing so we continue the race to the bottom in terms of quality. Everything on what was once the IC network is becoming more and more dumbed down. I will welcome the day that the punters wake up and realise they are being ripped off and decide not to use the railway.

I don't think the on board catering offering for the vast majority of passengers (ie standard class) is really a consideration.

Tbh, these days if they said there was definitely no buffet or trolley, I really wouldn't care as I'd make alternative provisions. However, the there may be or may not be system is pretty poor because if you decide to take a chance there will be a buffet or trolley with hot water, chances are you'll end up disappointed.

The only time I do make an effort to buy from the trolley is when using the S&C between settle and carlisle as it's run by the friends of the s&c and many (if not all??) the hosts are volunteers, but that can be pretty hit and miss too.
 

Master29

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DB take the view that catering is part of the product they offer and is a unique selling point for getting passengers to use rail.

Here we know the cost of everything and the value of nothing so we continue the race to the bottom in terms of quality. Everything on what was once the IC network is becoming more and more dumbed down. I will welcome the day that the punters wake up and realise they are being ripped off and decide not to use the railway.
Overcrowded roads and Coach services from hell and only limited air services sometimes not all that much faster. It's why we should be concerned about the dumbing down of our railways.
 

Mountain Man

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Oh come on! People have many things to worry about in their busy lives. "I'm sure there must be a petition on buffets on GWR for me to sign somewhere" is probably not uppermost in their thoughts. It doesn't mean they're not bothered about it when they find they're stuck in a train with no catering for four hours.
If they were bothered about it, they'd find it.
 

pt_mad

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Tbh, these days if they said there was definitely no buffet or trolley, I really wouldn't care as I'd make alternative provisions. However, the there may be or may not be system is pretty poor because if you decide to take a chance there will be a buffet or trolley with hot water, chances are you'll end up disappointed.

Thing is though, if someone is travelling London to Swansea, Plymouth, or beyond, I would say it's very likely they would want at least one hot drink en route and maybe a snack, potentially a hot one if that was offered in standard.

Can anyone say why the LNER cafe bar model wouldn't be efficient from a staff point of view Vs just a trolley? They offer roughly four hot snacks heated up there and then and it's usually single staffed as far as I have seen?
Having done Edinburgh to London numerous times I always want several hot drinks and a hot snack at some point during the 4 to 5 hour journey. Feel slightly lathargic on just cold food for that long.

Imo they strike a great balance with the hot panini type things and you would not need a traveling chef for this bit the regular cafe bar operative.
 

irish_rail

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Thing is though, if someone is travelling London to Swansea, Plymouth, or beyond, I would say it's very likely they would want at least one hot drink en route and maybe a snack, potentially a hot one if that was offered in standard.

Can anyone say why the LNER cafe bar model wouldn't be efficient from a staff point of view Vs just a trolley? They offer roughly four hot snacks heated up there and then and it's usually single staffed as far as I have seen?
Having done Edinburgh to London numerous times I always want several hot drinks and a hot snack at some point during the 4 to 5 hour journey. Feel slightly lathargic on just cold food for that long.

Imo they strike a great balance with the hot panini type things and you would not need a traveling chef for this bit the regular cafe bar operative.
Yes, LNER have got it right with both trolley and a buffet. I suspect the power of the Scottish government has something to do with that. Comparable journeys to south west Britain sadly do not receive the same political support.
 

Bletchleyite

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I do note that the LNER buffet is very small and has basically only a trolley type of range. So the only extra cost is in maintaining the microwave and in about 2 bays of lost seats.

You could go further and design it as a trolley dock so time is not spent setting up displays etc.
 

Goldfish62

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Yes, LNER have got it right with both trolley and a buffet. I suspect the power of the Scottish government has something to do with that. Comparable journeys to south west Britain sadly do not receive the same political support.
Yes, I've been wondering why DFT has such a hold over GWR, but as you say it's probably more a case of Scottish Government influence with LNER.

The madness is that if GWR is ever retendered rather than having what seems like a continually extendable franchise, the succulent bidder will undoubtedly offer an improved catering provision which the DfT will happily take up and boast about.
 

jimm

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No jimm, I don't think you understand how it works. For example, Plymouth Labour MP Luke Pollard was on the transport select committee and hopefully will be again going forward. He then directly quizzes the DFT and ministers over things such as buffet provision. MPs have more sway than you may think trust me. Similarly, any MP can raise questions in the house . Look at the furore over pacer trains in the north. Political pressure certainly played a part in getting them scrapped. And political pressure will be the way forward to give south west passengers a better deal on GWR, whether that be more 9 car sets sent this way, or pressure to bring back buffets.

I understand full well how it works. And governments of whatever colour have a fine tradition of ignoring select committee reports and not deigning to actually provide proper answers to questions raised by MPs. Have you ever actually watched Prime Minster's Questions? The same happens in questions to departmental ministers sessions, come to that. And in written answers to written questions.

The political pressure about Pacers achieved naff all during the previous Northern franchise, which was let despite plenty of evidence that there was a need to sort out the rolling stock available back in the mid-2000s at the time the 'no growth' franchise was awarded. The new franchise and the need to replace non-PRM-complaint trains, plus the Pacers being knackered after 30+ years in service, had rather more to do with them being replaced than anything that an MP ever said.

DB take the view that catering is part of the product they offer and is a unique selling point for getting passengers to use rail.

Here we know the cost of everything and the value of nothing so we continue the race to the bottom in terms of quality. Everything on what was once the IC network is becoming more and more dumbed down. I will welcome the day that the punters wake up and realise they are being ripped off and decide not to use the railway.

And DB are able to take a big financial hit on catering as they do not have shareholders to answer to, other than the German government. I must have missed all the crowds besieging the bistro car on my last ICE trip to enjoy a vital part of their rail journey experience - because there weren't any, just some of the group I was travelling with having a coffee or beer.

So you want people to stop using trains and add to the congestion on the roads, do you? And make everyone pay more for their tickets to cover all the catering losses?

All because they have been denied the 'right' to have an over-salted bit of bacon in a so-called 'baguette', which was one of the highlights of GWR HST buffet fare in recent years - and was clearly a key driver in people choosing to use the train over stopping at a service station on the M4 for a break and the chance to feast on the cordon bleu meals available there...

Yes, LNER have got it right with both trolley and a buffet. I suspect the power of the Scottish government has something to do with that. Comparable journeys to south west Britain sadly do not receive the same political support.

Yes, I've been wondering why DFT has such a hold over GWR, but as you say it's probably more a case of Scottish Government influence with LNER.

The madness is that if GWR is ever retendered rather than having what seems like a continually extendable franchise, the succulent bidder will undoubtedly offer an improved catering provision which the DfT will happily take up and boast about.

Clarence Yard has tried once or twice to explain that the DfT wasn't willing to listen to anything that was said about the interiors for the GW part of the IEP order, whereas on East Coast there was a later cut-off date, linked with the franchise bid process, so the DfT was willing to discuss options.

Nothing to do with the Scottish government, never mind its (very limited) influence with LNER - an organisation which didn't actually exist at the time the details of the East Coast IEP order were finalised with Virgin, as the successful bidder for the franchise... but don't let boring old facts get in the way of your conspiracy theories.

Should there ever be another GW franchise contest, bidders will be subject to intense scrutiny from the DfT over cost control measures and making sure that they are able to meet their financial promises - something which has been a bit of a problem on the East Coast once or twice now, in case you hadn't noticed.

Any suggestion that a new franchise should shell out extra millions each year to cover losses on catering - and affect their ability to pay premiums to the DfT - is likely to get short shrift.

Next we'll have someone demanding that XC should also bring back buffets.
 
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Goldfish62

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I do note that the LNER buffet is very small and has basically only a trolley type of range. So the only extra cost is in maintaining the microwave and in about 2 bays of lost seats.

You could go further and design it as a trolley dock so time is not spent setting up displays etc.
The LNER buffet offers a much better range than a trolley, including a variety of coffees and a reasonable selection of hot food.
 

R G NOW.

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I guess I don't travel enough in 1st then! Certainly never got offered free sandwiches before
I have never had sandwiches in 1st class just a cup of tea and some biscuits and cherry cake. That was on the old H.S.T.S between Cheltenham Spa and Paddington.
 

pt_mad

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I do note that the LNER buffet is very small and has basically only a trolley type of range. So the only extra cost is in maintaining the microwave and in about 2 bays of lost seats.

You could go further and design it as a trolley dock so time is not spent setting up displays etc.
Afaik the LNER buffet counter although small, does have the corridor type arrangement around the back of it into the next coach in MK4 sets. So it would be more than 2 bays used I reckon.
Please correct if that's wrong but I think that's correct.

The LNER buffet offers a much better range than a trolley, including a variety of coffees and a reasonable selection of hot food.
Indeed. They have the proper coffee machine and the handful of hot offerings which seems to be attended by one person. They also do a meal deal type thing with a hot roll type thing.
 

TheBigD

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Afaik the LNER Azuma buffet counter although small, does have the corridor type arrangement around the back of it into the next coach in MK4 sets. So it would be more than 2 bays used I reckon.
Please correct if that's wrong but I think that's correct.


Indeed. They have the proper coffee machine and the handful of hot offerings which seems to be attended by one person. They also do a meal deal type thing with a hot roll type thing.

The LNER Azuma buffet vehicle has 72 seats compared to 88 for a normal standard vehicle. A loss of 16 seats, or 2 bays.
 

pt_mad

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The LNER Azuma buffet vehicle has 72 seats compared to 88 for a normal standard vehicle. A loss of 16 seats, or 2 bays.
Ok but I was misquoted in your post there, as the word Azuma appears in your quote of what I said.
In my original post I was referring to the Mk4 LNER buffet only and not the Azuma buffet for clarity. Which (MK4 buffet) may have the kitchen behind it meaning it's larger?
 

R G NOW.

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I always take a Backpack with a bottle of Lucozade and Wispa chocolates with me, in case there is no trolley. Especially in the summer months, getting stuck on a boiling hot class 150 in summer on a hot day and you can imagine how thirsty you will get. When too hot I substitute the Wispa's for Digestives. I can remember when there even was a trolley service on a class 150 between Birmingham and Cardiff in the 1980's.

I decided to take a backpack when travelling from Gloucester to Bristol temple meads, as at the time class 150's ran on the route.

But I have never, ever had a trolley come through on an I.E.T From Gloucester to Cheltenham yet.
 

TheBigD

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Ok but I was misquoted in your post there, as the word Azuma appears in your quote of what I said.
In my original post I was referring to the Mk4 LNER buffet only and not the Azuma buffet for clarity. Which (MK4 buffet) may have the kitchen behind it meaning it's larger?

Apologies for the misquote, I started my reply and noticed I'd typed it in the middle of your text. I thought I'd edited it all but managed to muck that up as well. Sorry!
 
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