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MEN article-"Northern Rail is crumbling from the inside out and things are only going to get worse"

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Killingworth

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Whats wrong with Salford Crescent as an interchange? You alight from the Victoria Train, the Picadily train arrives a few minutes later on the same platform.
I couldn't understand why on a recent trip from London to Accrington trainsplit had me changing at Bolton (long walk to the stairs, across a bridge, long walk down the other side , lifts out of order one side as is the norm in the North) v Salford Crescent.

Salford Crescent is a mini platforms 12/13 at Piccadilly! Narrow platforms with a central screen. OK when quiet but If used as a major interchange it would get very crowded.
 
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jayah

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Since the turn of the century, Northern has been variously owned and operated by Arriva, Serco and Abellio and the other local franchise TPE, by First.

In other words many of the largest most experienced public transport operators in Europe.

There needs to be a realisation the current structure and organisation of the industry is broken from top to bottom.

National Express have ruled themselves out of UK Rail franchises and to be honest it appears the only people who are in play are either more of the same or so naive and inexperienced they probably shouldn't be allowed to.
 

Bletchleyite

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Salford Crescent is a mini platforms 12/13 at Piccadilly! Narrow platforms with a central screen. OK when quiet but If used as a major interchange it would get very crowded.

Ironically there's plenty of room there, so it could be fully rebuilt into two long islands a la 15/16 and far more cheaply too. Were it not for one thing - the muppetry of placing a signalling centre right in the way of where a 4th track could go.

It could be moved a little west, though, and there's plenty of greenery and space for a larger station.
 

Ianno87

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Salford Crescent is a mini platforms 12/13 at Piccadilly! Narrow platforms with a central screen. OK when quiet but If used as a major interchange it would get very crowded.

That's why the former waiting room etc were removed. Though the down side is a station not very pleasant to wait at for more than few minutes on a cold day.

Doing a proper platform widening no doubt requires pretty extensive remodelling to the junctions at either end
 

The Planner

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It isn't really shades of grey at 1.5min on a 75mph railway you aren't going to make the next timing point as if you were running in greens.

On turnarounds there seems to be almost zero logic in the 'rules' as seen with Liverpool Scarborough and back in 10mins and many daily cancellations.

It is all very well saying 2mins is standard for a crew change but if circumstances change and drivers now need to log in to this and that computer, then like any assumption it needs to be tested regularly and changed if incorrect.
Turnarounds, connectional allowance and crew change is TOC/FOC dictated, NR have very little influence in it.
 

jayah

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Turnarounds, connectional allowance and crew change is TOC/FOC dictated, NR have very little influence in it.
Network Rail publish the planning rules.

Do TOCs really dictate these, except for connection times which are for journey planners?
 

The Planner

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Network Rail publish the planning rules.

Do TOCs really dictate these, except for connection times which are for journey planners?
Yes we publish them, but how do you expect NR to impose turnaround values on journeys when we have little to no influence on the factors of how a TOC wants to operationally run its trains? We can propose a fully backed up evidence based rebuttal to something but it would still end up at a dispute committee.
 

Tomnick

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The headway is based on green signals meaning that every pathing allowance wastes space in the timetable.

For some strange reason the practice also seems to allow two trains to converge from routes with equal linespeed, one from a red signal, following one in flight and maintaining separation at that margin, which is probably impossible.
The allowance here (it’s actually engineering allowance) is on the relatively uncongested Cheshire Lines route approaching Castlefield from the west, and is presumably valuable in helping to absorb minor delays from that route before reaching Castlefield.

I’d normally agree that getting away from a red signal to fit behind a train at linespeed is likely to leave a larger gap than the planning headway. In this case, given the low linespeed and (excepting the freight!) relatively nippy DMUs involved, I don’t think it’s a problem at all. As I say, a train getting clear signals across the junction (so a mile or so back, even the half-mile to the first signal in rear, at 30mph throughout) will be ‘blocking’ the junction (with a route set across it) for longer than one that’s starting from a stand. It really doesn’t take long to get to 30mph and clear of the junction there.
 

158756

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Whats wrong with Salford Crescent as an interchange? You alight from the Victoria Train, the Picadily train arrives a few minutes later on the same platform.
I couldn't understand why on a recent trip from London to Accrington trainsplit had me changing at Bolton (long walk to the stairs, across a bridge, long walk down the other side , lifts out of order one side as is the norm in the North) v Salford Crescent.

Unpleasant place to wait for a train, unpleasant place to board a train that's likely already full.
Plus the frequency to Piccadilly is 3tph, unevenly spaced. Cut the Southport service and that becomes 2. Even without Northern's current problems, trains in the UK are not trusted to run on time, and if just one is cancelled or too full to board as is possible there you've now got an hour between services. When the timetable works it might not be so bad, but in comparison to interchanges between for example the two Merseyrail lines, or in London, it really isn't that good.
 

Mogster

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Unpleasant place to wait for a train, unpleasant place to board a train that's likely already full.
Plus the frequency to Piccadilly is 3tph, unevenly spaced. Cut the Southport service and that becomes 2. Even without Northern's current problems, trains in the UK are not trusted to run on time, and if just one is cancelled or too full to board as is possible there you've now got an hour between services. When the timetable works it might not be so bad, but in comparison to interchanges between for example the two Merseyrail lines, or in London, it really isn't that good.

Agreed. No waiting room, no bogs. Trains are frequently full from Victoria, Piccadilly, Bolton when they arrive, IF they arrive currently.
 

jayah

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The allowance here (it’s actually engineering allowance) is on the relatively uncongested Cheshire Lines route approaching Castlefield from the west, and is presumably valuable in helping to absorb minor delays from that route before reaching Castlefield.

I’d normally agree that getting away from a red signal to fit behind a train at linespeed is likely to leave a larger gap than the planning headway. In this case, given the low linespeed and (excepting the freight!) relatively nippy DMUs involved, I don’t think it’s a problem at all. As I say, a train getting clear signals across the junction (so a mile or so back, even the half-mile to the first signal in rear, at 30mph throughout) will be ‘blocking’ the junction (with a route set across it) for longer than one that’s starting from a stand. It really doesn’t take long to get to 30mph and clear of the junction there.
There is something fundamentally flawed in a system that does not account for the fact you have probably stopped to let the first train through.
 

jayah

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Yes we publish them, but how do you expect NR to impose turnaround values on journeys when we have little to no influence on the factors of how a TOC wants to operationally run its trains? We can propose a fully backed up evidence based rebuttal to something but it would still end up at a dispute committee.
Evidence is a good thing.

All of the planning rules need an evidence base otherwise they risk becoming a made up work of fiction.

If there were evidence base there wouldn't be much scope for disputes.

As system operator is really does sound like Network Rails job to impose planning rules on TOCs. Otherwise they are managing capacity and performance for you and not very well in many cases.

If you can impose x mins if engineering time between Liverpool and Scarborough and impose the running times between different locations, I don't see why you can't dictate that for every 10mins of running time there is 1min of turnaround time in addition to what is necessary to change crews and cabs. This can be based on typical minutes of delay accumulated on a route.

I keep reading how things went to pot when Network Rail moved their planning team to an old ice hockey stadium in Milton Keynes and lost many 'old hands' but the problems causing all these delays seem more fundamental.
 

6Gman

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Salford Crescent is a mini platforms 12/13 at Piccadilly! Narrow platforms with a central screen. OK when quiet but If used as a major interchange it would get very crowded.

Salford Crescent is one of the few stations where I've actually felt frightened waiting for a train. Crowded platform, waiting for a (stopping) Airport train. A train approaches, with "Airport" on the front. It runs along the platform, stops at the red at the platform end, crowd surges down the platform; door buttons are pressed; signal clears; train pulls out (it's not the stopper, and it's not stopping at Crescent).

Potential for death and injury - significant.
 

yorksrob

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Salford Crescent is indeed a very depressing wait, but if the connection is less than fifteen minutes, it can be worth it.
 

87015

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Evidence is a good thing.

All of the planning rules need an evidence base otherwise they risk becoming a made up work of fiction.

If there were evidence base there wouldn't be much scope for disputes.

As system operator is really does sound like Network Rails job to impose planning rules on TOCs. Otherwise they are managing capacity and performance for you and not very well in many cases.

If you can impose x mins if engineering time between Liverpool and Scarborough and impose the running times between different locations, I don't see why you can't dictate that for every 10mins of running time there is 1min of turnaround time in addition to what is necessary to change crews and cabs. This can be based on typical minutes of delay accumulated on a route.

I keep reading how things went to pot when Network Rail moved their planning team to an old ice hockey stadium in Milton Keynes and lost many 'old hands' but the problems causing all these delays seem more fundamental.
I'm afraid you believe NR have more sway than they do, especially for quick results. TOCs will simply not accept it - No-one at a TOC is going to be allowed to agree, say, another minute on turnaround adding minumum six figure added costs for one driver agreement being exceeded for an alleged too tight turnaround that almost certainly can't be tied down to the timetable itself. Typical delay minutes will be down to all sorts of things and both SRT and engineering time needs TOC buy in to get anywhere. TOC either doesn't have it in rules, or wants to change, turnaround and NR don't have a great deal to stand on.
 

AndrewE

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I'm afraid you believe NR have more sway than they do, especially for quick results. TOCs will simply not accept it - No-one at a TOC is going to be allowed to agree, say, another minute on turnaround adding minumum six figure added costs for one driver agreement being exceeded for an alleged too tight turnaround that almost certainly can't be tied down to the timetable itself. Typical delay minutes will be down to all sorts of things and both SRT and engineering time needs TOC buy in to get anywhere. TOC either doesn't have it in rules, or wants to change, turnaround and NR don't have a great deal to stand on.
and there we have the problem of the "privatised" railway in a nutshell: the reliability (i.e. usability) of fundamental UK infrastructure can't be allowed to be treated as a priority - let alone as THE priority - if it jeopardises the financial prospects of a franchise holder.
Scrap the whole bloody system and go back to one railway with a public service remit - with politicians accountable if it is starved of money.
 

87015

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No argument from me. Of course the big book of privatisation near enough says more services = more revenue which is basically where we are now...
 

Glenn1969

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But it has given that Northern are barred by NR from bidding for the paths they need to fulfil their committed service enhancements due to Government being unwilling to spend money on infrastructure
 

87015

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But it has given that Northern are barred by NR from bidding for the paths they need to fulfil their committed service enhancements due to Government being unwilling to spend money on infrastructure
They can’t be barred from bidding. They might not get them offeredback, but can bid whatever they want.
 

syorksdeano

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Northern seem to have a rather bad day today.

I know Sheffield had signalling issues earlier and I'm think somewhere else had points problems, but so far today Northern have fully cancelled 263 services and partly cancelled 170.

Of course, not all the cancellations are Northern's fault but some passengers are not going to see it like that.
 

KevinTurvey

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To add a bit of balance I thought Northern did much better today at the Liverpool end with approx 90% trains running, mostly on time and not a single cancellation for a big chunk of the day! Yesterday was dire though.
 

jayah

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I'm afraid you believe NR have more sway than they do, especially for quick results. TOCs will simply not accept it - No-one at a TOC is going to be allowed to agree, say, another minute on turnaround adding minumum six figure added costs for one driver agreement being exceeded for an alleged too tight turnaround that almost certainly can't be tied down to the timetable itself. Typical delay minutes will be down to all sorts of things and both SRT and engineering time needs TOC buy in to get anywhere. TOC either doesn't have it in rules, or wants to change, turnaround and NR don't have a great deal to stand on.
There already seems to be a mechanism for resolving disputes whether one side like it or not. The problem seems to be that many of the rules are not consistent, have no evidence base or are ignored completely. The commercial advantage in running a service from Liverpool - Scarborough for 3hrs and returning 10mins later are evident, that is precisely why you need rules to put a stop to such nonsense.

Network Rail as system operator should have a duty to ensure the timetable is robust, there are rules, they are followed and there is evidence to back them up. Why only one Network Rail region for example has additional running time following a pathing stop is almost beyond belief. In the roulette wheel of cosmetic treatments for poor performance 'giving greater control to the regions' seems to be back in vogue this year, despite the obvious implication that in this area it may not actually be a good thing...
 

jayah

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But it has given that Northern are barred by NR from bidding for the paths they need to fulfil their committed service enhancements due to Government being unwilling to spend money on infrastructure

I may have asked already, but what exactly are all of these infrastructure enhancements agreed as part of the franchise in 2016 to deliver their TSR that have not been delivered?
 

Glenn1969

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The works at Castlefield, Manchester Picc P15/16 and Oxford Road remodelling which were promised but not delivered. The TWAO is still in DfT's in tray but wasn't signed off by Chris Grayling despite a promise at the time that it would be.
 

londonmidland

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Salford Crescent is one of the few stations where I've actually felt frightened waiting for a train. Crowded platform, waiting for a (stopping) Airport train. A train approaches, with "Airport" on the front. It runs along the platform, stops at the red at the platform end, crowd surges down the platform; door buttons are pressed; signal clears; train pulls out (it's not the stopper, and it's not stopping at Crescent).

Potential for death and injury - significant.

That’s down to Northern with the ‘upgrade’ to their passenger information system. Non-stopping trains are no longer displayed on the screens and I don’t think they are announced either.
 

Dr Hoo

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They can’t be barred from bidding. They might not get them offeredback, but can bid whatever they want.
It does tend to ‘support’ a bid if a TOC has firm access rights to back it up! My understanding was that Network Rail had declined to sell at least some of the paths sought by Northern as there simply wasn’t any capacity to sustain them.
(I will refrain from getting into a long post about ‘section 18’ and ‘section 17’ of the Railways Act 1973.)
 
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