Routing people via circuitous routes to avoid rail replacement buses

[Note I created this new thread as my question didn't fit in an existing one, which can be found here:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/3tph-on-north-downs-line.140595/page-25#post-4356142]

My original post

I'm looking up services from Gatwick Airport to Guildford tomorrow and it is routing me via Clapham Junction, despite the fact that takes longer than the direct rail replacement bus to Guildford.

However if I put in North Camp then the direct buses show up at x35. Going into the details it seems to show the bus is non-stop to North Camp and not stopping at Guildford. However Real Time Trains show the x35 departure as stopping at Guildford.

Does anyone know what is going on with National Rail Enquiries, as I thought it used the same timetable information as Real Time Trains?

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The reply from JN114

NRE is more powerful than the "open" sites like RTT - operators can weight certain services or flows to encourage passengers to travel certain routes - I don't know what the mechanism for doing so is, but it's normally made mention of in our weekend engineering briefs if it's been done. In this instance while slower than the RRB, there is significantly more capacity via Clapham Junction. By dissuading direct passengers off the buses, it frees up spaces on the bus for those that don't have the option of the higher capacity, more circuitous route. All operators have seen the chaos that ensues on busy routes where it isn't practical - for whatever reason - to provide what would be normally considered "sufficient" capacity - Redhill to Three Bridges RRS a couple of years ago being a prime example.

Hopefully that answers your questions. It's not NDL 3tph related though really so further discussion should probably go in another thread.

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I hadn't realised they did this. The route from Gatwick Airport to Guildford via Clapham Junction is more expensive then Gatwick Airport to Guildford via Dorking Deepdene.

When doing a search it brings up the via Clapham Junction fare. Would I be right in assuming not via Clapham Junction tickets wouldn't be valid via Clapham Junction, despite the fact they are trying to encourage people to go via Clapham Junction?

They were also routing people via Clapham Junction today but today there is effectively just one direct train an hour from Clapham Junction to Guildford at x09. It's actually two but they depart at precisely the same time, with one being faster than the other. I do appreciate the one train an hour is partly as a result of the on going SWR RMT strike,

I assume even just one train an hour from Clapham Junction, with 12 coaches is better than directing everyone onto the buses.

Yet another example of a TOC wanting to have their cake and eat it. GWR will be being compensated handsomely by Network Rail for the loss of revenue caused by the engineering work. Their bustitution costs will be being paid by NR. They don't have to pay as much overtime to staff to run the proper service, or do as much maintenance to the stock (or fuel it).

Since far fewer people will be travelling on the direct buses than would be if NRE wasn't lying, they'll be able to get away with far fewer replacement buses than they rightfully ought to be putting on. And they won't have to pay SWR/GTR for ticket acceptance either.

What are the odds that existing via Gomshall ticket holders will be told they must travel via Clapham J and have to buy a new ticket to do so? No doubt GWR will (try to) display a false destination for the remaining buses.

There's only one party that benefit when misinformation is given by the TOCs in cases like these. It's the TOCs - they save cash all around. The passenger endures a slower than necessary, and indirect, journey for which they are given the privilege of paying extra money. Network Rail and the taxpayer is ripped off by TOCs that trouser the difference, and everyone in society suffers because maintenance and route upgrades are more expensive than necessary (and thus less likely to be approved) because the TOCs are only looking out for their bottom line. So road congestion is worse, more pollution is caused...

That may seem overexaggerated but on a larger scale misinformation like this is endemic in the rail industry. It seems that the people who make these decisions think that if their company benefits then it's OK regardless of the implications.

If there really were to be a problem fitting the number of people heading to Redhill/Gatwick Airport on the RRBs, then organise limited stop coaches. It's done all round the country when there are longer bustitutions with different flows. Clearly this is beyond GWR.

Seems a bit harsh to direct people onto a route that attracts a higher fare. The unwary would pay more than they need to.
During the Brighton Main Line Improvement closures, people going from London to Brighton were offered the choice of a bus from Three Bridges or remaining on the train, which went via the Arun Valley Line to Littlehampton, reversed, then along the coastway into Brighton.
The mini-railtour route option was at no additional cost for holders of London-Brighton tickets

gwrtimetable19 said:

Yet another example of a TOC wanting to have their cake and eat it. GWR will be being compensated handsomely by Network Rail for the loss of revenue caused by the engineering work. Their bustitution costs will be being paid by NR. They don't have to pay as much overtime to staff to run the proper service, or do as much maintenance to the stock (or fuel it).

Since far fewer people will be travelling on the direct buses than would be if NRE wasn't lying, they'll be able to get away with far fewer replacement buses than they rightfully ought to be putting on. And they won't have to pay SWR/GTR for ticket acceptance either.

What are the odds that existing via Gomshall ticket holders will be told they must travel via Clapham J and have to buy a new ticket to do so? No doubt GWR will (try to) display a false destination for the remaining buses.

There's only one party that benefit when misinformation is given by the TOCs in cases like these. It's the TOCs - they save cash all around. The passenger endures a slower than necessary, and indirect, journey for which they are given the privilege of paying extra money. Network Rail and the taxpayer is ripped off by TOCs that trouser the difference, and everyone in society suffers because maintenance and route upgrades are more expensive than necessary (and thus less likely to be approved) because the TOCs are only looking out for their bottom line. So road congestion is worse, more pollution is caused...

That may seem overexaggerated but on a larger scale misinformation like this is endemic in the rail industry. It seems that the people who make these decisions think that if their company benefits then it's OK regardless of the implications.

If there really were to be a problem fitting the number of people heading to Redhill/Gatwick Airport on the RRBs, then organise limited stop coaches. It's done all round the country when there are longer bustitutions with different flows. Clearly this is beyond GWR.

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To be fair to them, there are direct buses running to Guildford, calling as Guildford and North Canp. There are also stopping buses to other stations on the route between Gatwick Airport and North Camp.

It is just that they are directing people travelling to Guildford via Clapham Junction. Those going to North Camp are not directed via Clapham Junction.

Skimpot flyer said:

Seems a bit harsh to direct people onto a route that attracts a higher fare. The unwary would pay more than they need to.
During the Brighton Main Line Improvement closures, people going from London to Brighton were offered the choice of a bus from Three Bridges or remaining on the train, which went via the Arun Valley Line to Littlehampton, reversed, then along the coastway into Brighton.
The mini-railtour route option was at no additional cost for holders of London-Brighton tickets

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It was no doubt at no additional cost because there isn't normally any higher priced fares via Litthampton.

I don't think that "they" are actively promoting the route via Clapham Junction, and discouraging the use of the replacement bus. From memory, because the replacement bus does not run via Gomshall, NRE does not find any fares for the bus running non-stop from Gatwick to Guildford, and does not show the services.

Iggy12a said:

I don't think that "they" are actively promoting the route via Clapham Junction, and discouraging the use of the replacement bus. From memory, because the replacement bus does not run via Gomshall, NRE does not find any fares for the bus running non-stop from Gatwick to Guildford, and does not show the services.

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If that is the case, why does it show up for Gatwick Airport to North Camp.

Also I am aware of temporary easements being added for engineering works elsewhere. Therefore wouldn't they add an easement here if the issue was solely to do with the bus not passing through Gomshall?

I don't think the assertion that NRE routes customers on routes that avoid RRBs is correct.

For the journey from Gatwick Airport to Guildford tomorrow, the explanation for the routes via Dorking not showing by default is rather more mundane: they do not have any valid fares.

This is because fares are routed either "via Gomshall" or "via Clapham Junction", and the direct bus to Guildford does not go via either. There are no "Any Permitted" fares, and there is no mileage (it's an RRB), so the shortest route is not relevant. Cock up, not conspiracy, in other words. Sorry to all those who have posted otherwise!

There are also RRBs from Redhill to Guildford, but journeys on these are slower and have more changes (because of the RRB). Because NRE's journey planner (IPTIS) searches for the fastest journeys (or direct ones, no matter how fast), then the journeys via Dorking are not returned in this circumstance, making it look like another conscious decision to push passengers via the (more expensive) Clapham Junction route has been made.

If you search for journeys on Tuesday 31st December (instead of Monday 30th December) then, as there are no RRBs, the results look more 'normal' with many via Dorking.

You can get the same results on the Southern Railway website as on NRE, thus proving that the results are because of IPTIS (used by both) rather than any NRE special treatment.

The assertion by @JN114 that "operators can weight certain services or flows" might be based on the work when Brighton to London Victoria trains were diverted via Littlehampton, and RRBs were running between Brighton and Three Bridges. The timetables for the RRBs were set up so as not to be direct between Brighton and Three Bridges (so one bus from Brighton to Haywards Heath, and another from Haywards Heath to Three Bridges, even though they were the same through bus), not to connect (because they had insufficient connection time at Haywards Heath), and yet to work for intermediate passengers (e.g. by adding a Preston Park to Three Bridges via Haywards Heath). The purpose of this was to force journey planners to offer only the direct train services via Littlehampton, and not to show anything involving RRBs for Brighton to Victoria. It worked well.

infobleep said:

If that is the case, why does it show up for Gatwick Airport to North Camp.

Also I am aware of temporary easements being added for engineering works elsewhere. Therefore wouldn't they add an easement here if the issue was solely to do with the bus not passing through Gomshall?

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In answer to your question for journeys from Gatwick Airport to North Camp, there are fares that are "Not via London" and "Any Permitted", as well as "via Gomshall", so it is possible to return these journeys.

Regarding easements, I'm not actually sure how you would do an easement for this fare to make it work from GTW to GLD, but then again it's getting late and there is probably a simple method I am not thinking of.

alistairlees said:

In answer to your question for journeys from Gatwick Airport to North Camp, there are fares that are "Not via London" and "Any Permitted", as well as "via Gomshall", so it is possible to return these journeys.

Regarding easements, I'm not actually sure how you would do an easement for this fare to make it work from GTW to GLD, but then again it's getting late and there is probably a simple method I am not thinking of.

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How about this restriction:
Customers routed via Gomshall may travel via Guildford but not via Clapham Junction.

Would that work? Or can you not travel via Guildford when that is the terminating station.

Alternatively:
Customers for Guildford may travel direct.

In this case a temporary map link from Gatwick Airport to Guildford would also be added.

Does that work?

My third attempt:
Customer for Guildford may travel on any services not via East Croydon, Clapham Junction, London, Horsham or Hove.

I added in a load of stations there, some of which might not actually be needed, as I wasn't sure how many would be needed to restrict passengers to the direct bus

It wasn’t the Littlehampton diversions specifically that I was thinking of, rather prior examples on my own patch, but @alistairlees is correct I was only asserting that it was possible and had been done (successfully) previously - suggestions that it was what was actually happening were speculative on my part, and I concede they were not clearly demarcated as such.

infobleep said:

How about this restriction:
Customers routed via Gomshall may travel via Guildford but not via Clapham Junction.

Would that work? Or can you not travel via Guildford when that is the terminating station.

Alternatively:
Customers for Guildford may travel direct.

In this case a temporary map link from Gatwick Airport to Guildford would also be added.

Does that work?

My third attempt:
Customer for Guildford may travel on any services not via East Croydon, Clapham Junction, London, Horsham or Hove.

I added in a load of stations there, some of which might not actually be needed, as I wasn't sure how many would be needed to restrict passengers to the direct bus

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What actually matters is the electronic data; how you word the human readable text is irrelevant.

yorkie said:

What actually matters is the electronic data; how you word the human readable text is irrelevant.

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Fair enough. So could the electronic data be written to allow passengers to go direct to Guildford.

Thinking about it some more, I then remembered that this has happened in the past.

I'm sure there must be examples on other lines where this occurs but equally is anyone aware of examples where it has been temporarily fixed in the electronic data?

You would need a fare route easement. It would say something like "Passengers traveling on fares routed Gomshall may travel via Guildford".

alistairlees said:

In answer to your question for journeys from Gatwick Airport to North Camp, there are fares that are "Not via London" and "Any Permitted", as well as "via Gomshall", so it is possible to return these journeys.

Regarding easements, I'm not actually sure how you would do an easement for this fare to make it work from GTW to GLD, but then again it's getting late and there is probably a simple method I am not thinking of.

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Setting the fast buses to pass (but not call at) Gomshall should work. This would make the routeing work, while not affecting public-facing timetables.

Indigo2 said:

You would need a fare route easement. It would say something like "Passengers traveling on fares routed Gomshall may travel via Guildford".

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Lad Brookes said:

Setting the fast buses to pass (but not call at) Gomshall should work. This would make the routeing work, while not affecting public-facing timetables.

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If either this solutions were passed on to the Customer Services departed at GWR, via e-mail, what are the realistic changes of changes being applied for future engineering works? Or would they be liable to not understand the request and ignore it or not know what to do with it.

More likely is that someone at RDG might read this thread and put the easement in themselves to help out GWR. Perhaps we have already done enough.

Indigo2 said:

More likely is that someone at RDG might read this thread and put the easement in themselves to help out GWR. Perhaps we have already done enough.

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In fact now you mention it, perhaps contacting the RDG is the way to go in future, rather contacting TOCs.

alistairlees said:

I don't think the assertion that NRE routes customers on routes that avoid RRBs is correct.


For the journey from Gatwick Airport to Guildford tomorrow, the explanation for the routes via Dorking not showing by default is rather more mundane: they do not have any valid fares.

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At the moment, NRE doesn't show routes using the bus for Gatwick-Guildford* but does for Gatwick-London Road Guildford*. It doesn't show through tickets as being vaild on the latter route, so this isn't what causes the different behaviour.

These will probably drop off the system soon. The next rail replacement buses like this is at 0:45 on 4/2, NRE doesn't show it as an option for a Gatwick-Guildford journey*, but there's nothing at all running to London Road at that time of the morning, so I can't compare that with it.

Another route for which NRE offers no tickets is Epsom-Uckfield*. I don't know why off-hand, as there are "+any permitted" and "via Tramlink 1" ones.

The Southern web site does insist on there being a through fare for any journey it shows, so you don't see the same results with that even if it uses the same back end.

* You may need to delete any nationalrail.co.uk cookies you have for these links to open correctly.

kieron said:

At the moment, NRE doesn't show routes using the bus for Gatwick-Guildford* but does for Gatwick-London Road Guildford*. It doesn't show through tickets as being vaild on the latter route, so this isn't what causes the different behaviour.

These will probably drop off the system soon. The next rail replacement buses like this is at 0:45 on 4/2, NRE doesn't show it as an option for a Gatwick-Guildford journey*, but there's nothing at all running to London Road at that time of the morning, so I can't compare that with it.

Another route for which NRE offers no tickets is Epsom-Uckfield*. I don't know why off-hand, as there are "+any permitted" and "via Tramlink 1" ones.

The Southern web site does insist on there being a through fare for any journey it shows, so you don't see the same results with that even if it uses the same back end.

* You may need to delete any nationalrail.co.uk cookies you have for these links to open correctly.

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Interesting. I hadn't realised there was via Tramlink 1 fares. If only more stations had via Tramlink fares but that's another thread entirely.

There are a few Tramlink 1 (and 2, 3 and 4) fares around.

I would like to know what the industry thinks you can do with "via Tramlink 1" tickets, though. GWR describe the fare as "Valid only for travel changing at Wimbledon and East Croydon via connecting London Trams service.", but GWR couldn't find anything for that fare, and specifying a change at Wimbledon on NRE doesn't help.

It doesn't help that TfL doesn't seem to use terms like "Tramlink 1" now.

kieron said:

There are a few Tramlink 1 (and 2, 3 and 4) fares around.

I would like to know what the industry thinks you can do with "via Tramlink 1" tickets, though. GWR describe the fare as "Valid only for travel changing at Wimbledon and East Croydon via connecting London Trams service.", but GWR couldn't find anything for that fare, and specifying a change at Wimbledon on NRE doesn't help.

It doesn't help that TfL doesn't seem to use terms like "Tramlink 1" now.

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How odd but I guess this would be for another thread.

Ticketing is such a fascinating thing.