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Future ECML & LNER Services

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hexagon789

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Often heard about operators replacing the class 91s but keeping the mk4 coaches. What are people’s views on this. Would it really help as the loco is a single point of failure irrespective. Unless they do a HST type situation and sandwich the mk4s between 2x locos.

My worry is that unless they significantly shorten the rake, acceleration will be terrible. Particularly as Mk4s weigh about 41 tonnes to the 33.5 of a Mk3.

If they don't retain IC 225s and buy new, what would they be? More IETs would make the most sense in terms of compatibility.
 
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Rhydgaled

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The last rumour I heard from within VTEC (as it would have been then) was that they were seriously considering lashing 43s together with the Mk4s as it was felt to be easier to resolve the electrical issues with using 43s with conventional stock than make the Mk3s compliant.
Quite; PRM mods for mark 3s seems to be a serious undertaking going by how slow progress appears to be the with GWR, ScotRail and XC set. I can therefore understand that, if class 43s are to be kept, using mark 4s with them instead of mark 3s could be an attractive way forward. But with the new LNER fleet being bi-mode why keep class 43s rather than the younger class 91s that can already work with the mark 4s? Using mark 4s with class 43s (in place of mark 3s) seems to make more sense for the Midland Main Line, where diesel traction is still going to be required. LNER (will) have the class 800s for the off-wire work.

Not that surprising as Stagecoach would know the issues with IEP diesel performance and having the HST there as a possible option is sensible. There are also senior people in Stagecoach who have a very high regard for the HST and its capabilities.
Keeping IC125s instead of IC225s would be a little less surprising if the class 800s aren't up to maintaining journey times to Aberdeen, Inverness etc. but extremely wasteful building a bi-mode fleet and then not using it beyond the wires (much).
 

ainsworth74

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But with the new LNER fleet being bi-mode why keep class 43s rather than the younger class 91s that can already work with the mark 4s?

Because the 91s are knackered and the 43s for all their age are seemingly the better bet for further use.

Personally though I'm hoping that the entire legacy fleet will be ditched and additional IETs ordered to replace them.
 

43096

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Aged with character, thank you ;)

If they can retain them for fast Edinburghs and maybe revamp the interiors, I think it would be better for the passenger than more IETs.
Depends on the reliability. They are knackered.
 

Failed Unit

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In the past they have talked about new loco - same coaches. But not forgetting the mk4s have had their 30th birthday (well at least some have) so won’t last forever.
 

Aictos

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So are the HSTs ;)

I would say the HSTs are more past it then the Class 91 fleet however as been proven with the Class 365 fleet that less intensive use of them is better as they are in better condition then they have been so maybe the same holds true for the Class 91 fleet?

If we look to history, when the Class A4s got displaced from mainline duties on the ECML they were used on goods and slower passenger services finally ending up on Glasgow to Aberdeen services and the Deltics when displaced were used on TransPennine services sadly though I don't think the Class 91s will be used on any such services although they would have been fine for the First Group OA on services between London and Edinburgh as they are already PRM ready, it's far less intensive then what they do under LNER and running as 6 or 7 coaches would help with accelerating and braking for station stops.

Still they could still be used on the WCML on the OA serving London Euston to Blackpool so I think that's where we will see them see out their days.
 

hexagon789

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I would say the HSTs are more past it then the Class 91 fleet however as been proven with the Class 365 fleet that less intensive use of them is better as they are in better condition then they have been so maybe the same holds true for the Class 91 fleet?

If we look to history, when the Class A4s got displaced from mainline duties on the ECML they were used on goods and slower passenger services finally ending up on Glasgow to Aberdeen services and the Deltics when displaced were used on TransPennine services sadly though I don't think the Class 91s will be used on any such services although they would have been fine for the First Group OA on services between London and Edinburgh as they are already PRM ready, it's far less intensive then what they do under LNER and running as 6 or 7 coaches would help with accelerating and braking for station stops.

Still they could still be used on the WCML on the OA serving London Euston to Blackpool so I think that's where we will see them see out their days.

I would say that the 225s are more ripe for continued high-speed use than HSTs, which are more valuable on the sort of regional services ScotRail and GWR are using them on.
 

philthetube

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It would be possible to run with 91's, initially using the best of the bunch while doing a serious refurb on others to end up with decent locos. There would be spares about to be able to do that.
 

Failed Unit

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I am sure as well that running them on virtually non-stop services will help. They say starting stopping kills things. Makes sense but hard to prove with mixed fleets. Best example I can think of are the HT170s compared to others.

But i am sure that running London - Edinburgh with a single stop is less demanding then York - London all stops.
 

cactustwirly

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It would be possible to run with 91's, initially using the best of the bunch while doing a serious refurb on others to end up with decent locos. There would be spares about to be able to do that.

But why would you do that, when you can get 802s for a similar price?
 

greyman42

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I would say the HSTs are more past it then the Class 91 fleet however as been proven with the Class 365 fleet that less intensive use of them is better as they are in better condition then they have been so maybe the same holds true for the Class 91 fleet?
The vast majority of ECML failures are 91 sets.
 

hexagon789

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That’s such a good idea, would make a far more comfortable journey than an Azuma.

I thank you ;)

I thought that if they are going to cut journey times, which might increase competition with air-transport, they could also undercut them by offering a more-comfortable, enhanced service with high quality stock to compete with them even more so.

I think offering a comprehensive at-seat restaurant car service like GWR's Pullmans would be quite popular over the longer distances.
 

Glenn1969

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The NR CP6 strategy has been published this week. LNER's service extensions to Harrogate, Bradford, Skipton, Lincoln and Middlesbrough have been delayed until 2021/2022. But at least they appear to be still happening
 

Jorge Da Silva

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The NR CP6 strategy has been published this week. LNER's service extensions to Harrogate, Bradford, Skipton, Lincoln and Middlesbrough have been delayed until 2021/2022. But at least they appear to be still happening

I thought lincoln was going to happen in September. I know the 4-hour edinburgh services is delayed to 2021 have you got any links to a webpage
 

Failed Unit

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I thought lincoln was going to happen in September. I know the 4-hour edinburgh services is delayed to 2021 have you got any links to a webpage

That is interesting. I know real-time doesn’t mean anything but Lincoln was expected to happen as follows:

September 2019. Existing Newark north gate stopping service extended to Lincoln. Long layover at Lincoln. (Can’t see why network rail would object to that)

December 2019 2 extra services.
0806 London - Lincoln
1930 (approx) Lincoln - London.

The former would need GC to vacate a path.

December 2021 new timetable.

The September part should be possible with no impact on ECML.

We will see.

The extras would be useful but I can see why they will get push back. 1 extra unit ECS Doncaster. If December happens in service from London.
 

Class 170101

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The NR CP6 strategy has been published this week. LNER's service extensions to Harrogate, Bradford, Skipton, Lincoln and Middlesbrough have been delayed until 2021/2022. But at least they appear to be still happening

As I have noted elsewhere the extensions to Harrogate, Bradford, Skipton, Middlesbrough and Lincoln can surely be extensions of existing services in the interim. No need to wait until 2021/2022 if LNER so desire surely?

Indeed RTT shows the Lincoln (all day) services starting in September this year.
 

TheBigD

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Copied from this month's Informed Sources email from Roger Ford of Modern Railways...

"...Also in the column I provide an update on the delivery schedule for the LNER Intercity Express Programme (IEP) fleets. LNER should have all 13 of its Hitachi Class 800/1 9-car Bi-modes accepted by 2 May - in good time for the 19 May timetable change. LNER is planning to use the first nine sets to cover six London-Leeds diagrams.

Last month’s Modern Railways feature on LNER, confirmed that the new IEP timetable, featuring 13 paths every two hours including an hourly 4 hour London-Edinburgh headline timing, will not now be feasible until December 2021. This is due to infrastructure constraints.

LNER has firm rights to its additional hourly path from May 2021. Rights from May 2019 were contingent on the infrastructure upgrades and rolling stock being available..."

ORR also gave LNER firm rights for a two-hourly Middlesbrough service, also from May 2021, with contingent rights from May 2020.

FirstGroup was seeking five daily London-Edinburgh paths each way. ORR approved this application, with firm rights starting in May 2021. This was conditional on the necessary rolling stock being ordered. The contract for five 5-car Hitachi AT300 EMUs was placed on 22 March for delivery in ‘Autumn 2021
 

Japan0913

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No. They will happen and are being taken forward by LNER.
STAGECOACH-VIRGIN COMPANY AWARDED INTERCITY EAST COAST RAIL FRANCHISE
27 Nov 2014
https://www.stagecoach.com/media/news-releases/2014/2014-11-27.aspx
New direct weekday peak-time services between Huddersfield and London
London North Eastern Railway plan to operate services from London King's Cross via Leeds, beginning in 2019.
Is that plan still effective?
This is
Through the temple Hirst Junction and Garforth?
 
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Halifaxlad

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Do places like Bradford FS, Skipton and Harrogate really have sufficient capacity to deal with these additional services ?
 
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TheBigD

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Sorry to bump up and old thread, but are the improvements still scheduled to go ahead in December 2021?

Will there be any improvements to the existing services in the meantime such as adding the missing 0930 Lincoln-Kings Cross filling the 4 hour gap from Lincoln, or extending one of the Leeds services to Bradford or the York stoppers to Newcastle?
 
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