Transpennine Express December 2019 Proposals

86247 · 30 Dec 2019

so now it's the 24th of January can't see that happening either again he blames late delivery of new trains, it's crew training that's the issue. when that date comes it will be put back again and again and again. Leo should do the right thing and resign.

RailUK Forums

tpjm · 30 Dec 2019

86247 said:
it's crew training that's the issue.

Correct, but how can you train if you don’t have the units? Late delivery has had a concertina effect across the new trains programme and has resulted in all the units being available all at the same time.

sjpowermac · 30 Dec 2019

tpjm said:
Correct, but how can you train if you don’t have the units? Late delivery has had a concertina effect across the new trains programme and has resulted in all the units being available all at the same time.

TPE really can’t win on this forum. You try to get as many new trains in service as quickly as possible and people complain. There are calls to prioritise the core route over extensions to Edinburgh, you do that and people complain. I do wonder if some would have preferred all the Nova 3 trains to go to Longtown and get stored there until you finished crew training on the other trains. Or maybe put the Nova 1 trains in Tyne Yard with the Azumas. It seems to be taking LNER forever to get the Azumas in traffic but that goes largely unnoticed!

I had an enjoyable day today on the Liverpool to Scarborough route, three Nova 3s in traffic, solid service to Scarborough with just the first one off/last one to there cancelled. Yet nobody comments about that, so I will

Camden · 30 Dec 2019

Ok, so, it's a great service, if you're a rail enthusiast.

It just sucks badly for everyone else.

Swings and roundabouts?

Bertie the bus · 30 Dec 2019

sjpowermac said:
TPE really can’t win on this forum. You try to get as many new trains in service as quickly as possible and people complain. There are calls to prioritise the core route over extensions to Edinburgh, you do that and people complain. I do wonder if some would have preferred all the Nova 3 trains to go to Longtown and get stored there until you finished crew training on the other trains. Or maybe put the Nova 1 trains in Tyne Yard with the Azumas. It seems to be taking LNER forever to get the Azumas in traffic but that goes largely unnoticed!

I had an enjoyable day today on the Liverpool to Scarborough route, three Nova 3s in traffic, solid service to Scarborough with just the first one off/last one to there cancelled. Yet nobody comments about that, so I will

Have you seen the performance figures? 65% is the highest PPM has been since the timetable change and very late or cancelled has been around 30% every day. That isn’t people desperately trying to find something to complain about.

BeHereNow · 30 Dec 2019

sjpowermac said:
TPE really can’t win on this forum

Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.

47271 · 30 Dec 2019

sjpowermac said:
TPE really can’t win on this forum. You try to get as many new trains in service as quickly as possible and people complain. There are calls to prioritise the core route over extensions to Edinburgh, you do that and people complain. I do wonder if some would have preferred all the Nova 3 trains to go to Longtown and get stored there until you finished crew training on the other trains. Or maybe put the Nova 1 trains in Tyne Yard with the Azumas. It seems to be taking LNER forever to get the Azumas in traffic but that goes largely unnoticed!

I had an enjoyable day today on the Liverpool to Scarborough route, three Nova 3s in traffic, solid service to Scarborough with just the first one off/last one to there cancelled. Yet nobody comments about that, so I will

I'll have a pint of whatever you're drinking.

Failed Unit · 30 Dec 2019

sjpowermac said:
It seems to be taking LNER forever to get the Azumas in traffic but that goes largely unnoticed!

Probably because they are not cancelling a significant amount of services. They have mk4s keeping the service running. So why would people care the Azuma’s introduction is slow?

JonathanH · 30 Dec 2019

Failed Unit said:
Probably because they are not cancelling a significant amount of services. They have mk4s keeping the service running. So why would people care the Azuma’s introduction is slow?

They are short forming Azuma services as a result of the loss of 800109 and delays to introduction of the 9-car 801s. A fair number of Leeds services have been running with one 5-car unit.

BeHereNow · 30 Dec 2019

TPEs PPM is just 55% over the last month.

transmanche · 30 Dec 2019

gr4991 said:
Further information has now been posted on the page, with details of cancellations till 24 January and further cancellations than previously towards Newcastle and Edinburgh.

Meaning from 6 January, 12 of the 17 weekday services from Newcastle to Liverpool will be cancelled.

Bertie the bus · 31 Dec 2019

BeHereNow said:
TPEs PPM is just 55% over the last month.

Just to put this fiasco into historical context. When Operation Princess was introduced PPM was around 55% and a RAIL editorial described it as (along the lines of) the worst self inflicted PR disaster the rail industry had suffered for decades. TPE’s PPM is similar and it is the worst self inflicted PR disaster the rail industry has suffered since… last year.

js1000 · 31 Dec 2019

sjpowermac said:
TPE really can’t win on this forum. You try to get as many new trains in service as quickly as possible and people complain.

But they have made a pigs ear of it though. Instead of simply ordering one type of bi-mode unit - they have ordered 3 different types in the hope this will result in them being manufactured quicker. In reality it hasn't worked thanks to the faulty Mk5s and long term it will complicate TPEs driver/crew training regime and maintenance costs.

sjpowermac · 31 Dec 2019

Camden said:
Ok, so, it's a great service, if you're a rail enthusiast.

It just sucks badly for everyone else.

Swings and roundabouts?

I hadn’t realised that the Nova 3 trains on the Liverpool to Scarborough route were only available to enthusiasts...

Three Nova 3 sets in traffic yesterday, four today, bringing a big uplift in capacity.

I suppose though that doesn’t fit your narrative, does it?

Bertie the bus said:
Have you seen the performance figures? 65% is the highest PPM has been since the timetable change and very late or cancelled has been around 30% every day. That isn’t people desperately trying to find something to complain about.

Typical comment for this thread, quoting a figure that has nothing to do with the post I made.

I don’t remember saying anything about PPM, what I said was that I’d had an enjoyable day on the Liverpool to Scarborough route and noted that there were three Nova 3 trains in service.

BeHereNow said:
Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.

I’m not sure of the point you are making, perhaps you could clarify?

47271 said:
I'll have a pint of whatever you're drinking.

You might be disappointed, I don’t drink alcohol. You would do well to remember the forum rule about politeness, the only reason that I haven’t reported your post is that it actually reflects very badly on you.

If you would like to pose a question about anything I’ve put, I’ll be delighted to answer.

Failed Unit said:
Probably because they are not cancelling a significant amount of services. They have mk4s keeping the service running. So why would people care the Azuma’s introduction is slow?

Which is exactly the point I’m making. TPE could take a much more leisurely approach to introducing their new fleets but then the forum would be filled full of posts along the lines of ‘why am I travelling on a 3 car Class 185 that’s completely rammed, when there are five car Nova 1 trains sat at Heaton awaiting crew training.’

And by the way, LNER are cancelling and short forming trains, 5 car Azuma vice 10 cars is common. Ironically on two of the days they were trundling an HST about ‘one last time’ several of their Anglo-Scottish services were cancelled...

LNW-GW Joint · 31 Dec 2019

The TPE web site says that ticket acceptance is available with Avanti (north of Preston), LNER (north of York), and Northern/XC and others on some routes.
However, it is hedged about by warnings of it only being under limited circumstances (which aren't defined).

Please note that these arrangements will only be applicable in certain circumstances and you must check before you travel.
Check here for the latest updates. If you are unsure, please check with a member of staff BEFORE boarding.

While I'm sure it's nice when one of the new longer trains shows up, the overall service level is abysmal.
The drip-feed of multiple cancellations means they haven't got a grip on the situation yet.

sjpowermac · 31 Dec 2019

JonathanH said:
They are short forming Azuma services as a result of the loss of 800109 and delays to introduction of the 9-car 801s. A fair number of Leeds services have been running with one 5-car unit.

Spot on.

In addition, the situation isn’t really comparable anyhow. Yes, the Azuma will provide an uplift in capacity but not to the same relative extent as the Nova trains will in moving from 3 car 185s to 5 car Nova 1 and Nova 3 trains.

sjpowermac · 31 Dec 2019

transmanche said:
Meaning from 6 January, 12 of the 17 weekday services from Newcastle to Liverpool will be cancelled.

And yet there have been many urging TPE to focus on running trains over the core route, plus a whole thread devoted to the Scarborough route.

Now they try to put together a more resilient emergency timetable, focussing on the core plus Scarborough, people still complain.

No, it’s not ideal, but what’s your alternative? I’m sure whoever is putting together the train crew/rolling stock rosters is pretty busy right now, perhaps if you do have a better solution you could email TPE?

Boysteve · 31 Dec 2019

Given how terrible the service is on TPEx I do not understand why the same small number of contributors to this thread are sympathetic towards them. Maybe you are Leo Goodwin and his cronies?
The level of cancellation is intolerable in my opinion

sjpowermac · 31 Dec 2019

js1000 said:
But they have made a pigs ear of it though. Instead of simply ordering one type of bi-mode unit - they have ordered 3 different types in the hope this will result in them being manufactured quicker. In reality it hasn't worked thanks to the faulty Mk5s and long term it will complicate TPEs driver/crew training regime and maintenance costs.

Have you read the invitation to tender document or the franchise agreement for the TransPennine route? Both dictate in a great deal of detail the rolling stock to be used on the route.

Have you read any of the threads on the GWR 800/801 units and their entry into service? Come next summer, when the 802 units are wheezing up to Standedge, with drivers trying to coax at least a few of the engines into life, ordering a variety of rolling stock might not seem like such a daft idea.

sjpowermac · 31 Dec 2019

Boysteve said:
Given how terrible the service is on TPEx I do not understand why the same small number of contributors to this thread are sympathetic towards them. Maybe you are Leo Goodwin and his cronies?
The level of cancellation is intolerable in my opinion.

But what’s your suggestion for how to organise things differently?

As I understand it the original plan was to introduce trains to services in the following order:

1. Liverpool to Scarborough
2. Man Air to Redcar
3. Liverpool/Manchester to Scotland via-WCML
4. Liverpool to Newcastle/Edinburgh
5. Manchester Airport to Newcastle

Again, as I understand it, due to trains being delivered late they are currently trying to train staff on several routes all at once.

As I suggested above, one solution would have been to proceed with the original plan and store any trains that they were not yet ready to introduce. So, store Nova 1 and Nova 2 trains whilst training and introduction of the Nova 3 trains is completed. The problem there would have been lots of expensive trains sitting around in sidings (and doubtless complaints about that).

Another alternative would have been to employ lots of additional train crew to provide cover whilst other staff trained on the new traction. The problem there is that it takes a minimum of 9 months to train a driver, usually nearer to 12 months. For a conductor I understand the training period for a new recruit is around 5 months. So, not a quick fix. In addition, whilst adverts for train drivers often bring around 2000 applicants, the pass rate for the initial stages is around 1 to 2 percent and then some drop out after the start of training. It’s a specialist and highly skilled job, you can’t ring up an agency and suddenly get an extra 50 train drivers.

Supposing though for a minute TPE had a crystal ball and realised in say 2018 that they would need extra staff for autumn 2019. Train drivers attract a good wage, and rightly so for the skilled and responsible job that they do. That’s an expensive resource to have sitting around in the mess room once all the new trains are introduced.

I’m not for a moment suggesting that the current level of service is acceptable, TPE themselves have admitted that. What I am suggesting is that there are no quick fixes or easy answers.

Please do feel free to share your own plan for improving the situation.

Boysteve · 31 Dec 2019

@sjpowermac;
I do not have a magic plan to make everything better, and one may not be possible. My gripe is that I have no confidence in the management. Two weeks ago they cancel so many trains until 5th January but after 5th January everything was supposed to run. Now, the cancellations last in many cases until 24th January. HOWEVER, during the last two weeks people could still book tickets for the trains now cancelled between 5th and 24th January. To me this smacks of the management having no clue how long it will take to fix the problem. They have not to grips with the size of the issue. On 15th December when they made the first pre-cancellation announcement they obviously had no clear timeline of how long it was going to actually take to train all the drivers to provide the basic service. Do they now have this? Well we shall see what happens after 24th January!
Also, they need to be really clear on ticket acceptance no matter how much it costs them. If they cancel so many successive trains to wherever on their network as has happened at Liverpool, Newcastle on MANY occasions then they need to refund people in FULL who feel they have no choice to but buy a walk-up ticket there and then for Northern/LNER/XC to replace their TPEx only tickets. Maybe they are doing this but I suspect it will not be universal. They need to make a statement about this with the ticket acceptance guidelines.

BeHereNow · 31 Dec 2019

Bearing in mind that these decisions should have been made prior to the timetable change, and that the 350s still go to LNW, here's what the mitigation could have been. It assumes they aren't prepared to lease additional stock.

1) Defer introduction of Edinburgh extension til May as insufficient drivers trained on 802s
2) Defer introduction of Liverpool to Glasgow services to May as not enough drivers trained and not enough stick available
3) Defer all 185 strengthening as any spare 185s initially needed for Scottish route.

This reduces the number of units (and crews) required to run the base timetable by 6 plus any strengthening diagrams.

This way the only extra units you need are the ones to resource the changes to Newcastle and Redcar to Airport services.

sjpowermac · 31 Dec 2019

BeHereNow said:
Bearing in mind that these decisions should have been made prior to the timetable change, and that the 350s still go to LNW, here's what the mitigation could have been. It assumes they aren't prepared to lease additional stock.

1) Defer introduction of Edinburgh extension til May as insufficient drivers trained on 802s
2) Defer introduction of Liverpool to Glasgow services to May as not enough drivers trained and not enough stick available
3) Defer all 185 strengthening as any spare 185s initially needed for Scottish route.

This reduces the number of units (and crews) required to run the base timetable by 6 plus any strengthening diagrams.

This way the only extra units you need are the ones to resource the changes to Newcastle and Redcar to Airport services.

Introducing new trains at a rate that reduces current cancellations was contained within my post.

I don’t have access to (all!) of the train diagrams so I have no idea if what you propose would work.

With the current timetable changes it seems that TPE have already implemented part of what you are saying.

Tim33160 · 31 Dec 2019

Journey experience
Having booked a daytrip in November for Manchester to Newcastle on Monday 30 Dec with Advance 1st tickets
Outbound 0800 was still a runner but the 1706 return from MCL was one cancelled in the purge of the new trains

Got to Victoria to find the 0800 had been cancelled - as was the 0745 (staff shortages)
So used tickets on 0815 to Redcar: a crowded 185 from Manchester Airport.
Conductor asked why not using the booked train, but was acceptable to the cancellation news - "news to me - thought the company would have said!"

Ticket acceptance from York on LNER - but not Cross country - confirmed by Journey Check and twitter customer services (eventually)
LNER conductor hardly glanced at the tickets and made no comment!
Slightly delayed arrival at NCL at 1057 - but 37 mins late overall so delay replay!
As seems to be usual at Newcastle gateline open - no staff about

Return 1706 towards Liverpool had been culled and 1645 and 1745 were cancelled "due to staff shortages"
Nova 1 1807 came from Edinburgh - slightly late departure at 1815 due to "LNER train in front" said the conductor.
No comments about the advanced tickets on the full ticket check but the 1st class did not appear to be marked on board and relied on the catering person to explain to others this was first class.
Only the different seat layout gave me the clue to first class!
No seat reservations working nor destinations outside
Catering trolley had no hot water so were offered complimentary still or sparking water! and biscuits. (no trolley actually seen - but then offered red or white wine in a paper cup (twice before Leeds when she disappeared!)

Change of conductor saw second full ticket check when the new conductor explained delay repay to me! As original tickets booked through Virgin tickets site she said there would be no problem - but if it had been Trainline - she said couldn't speak about it !!

So nice day out, minimal disruption and 1 & 1/2 delay repay so out and back for 25% of the paid ticket prices!

sjpowermac · 31 Dec 2019

Boysteve said:
@sjpowermac;
I do not have a magic plan to make everything better, and one may not be possible. My gripe is that I have no confidence in the management. Two weeks ago they cancel so many trains until 5th January but after 5th January everything was supposed to run. Now, the cancellations last in many cases until 24th January. HOWEVER, during the last two weeks people could still book tickets for the trains now cancelled between 5th and 24th January. To me this smacks of the management having no clue how long it will take to fix the problem. They have not to grips with the size of the issue. On 15th December when they made the first pre-cancellation announcement they obviously had no clear timeline of how long it was going to actually take to train all the drivers to provide the basic service. Do they now have this? Well we shall see what happens after 24th January!
Also, they need to be really clear on ticket acceptance no matter how much it costs them. If they cancel so many successive trains to wherever on their network as has happened at Liverpool, Newcastle on MANY occasions then they need to refund people in FULL who feel they have no choice to but buy a walk-up ticket there and then for Northern/LNER/XC to replace their TPEx only tickets. Maybe they are doing this but I suspect it will not be universal. They need to make a statement about this with the ticket acceptance guidelines.

So, in summary, you have absolutely no answers to any of the points I made but you were quite happy to mock anyone who didn’t support your ‘Leo must go’ stance.

Quite what good a CEO walking out at a time of trouble serves is beyond me. I would much rather the management saw the current situation through, rather than enduring the pain of a new team having to get to grips with what’s happening.

Regarding ticket acceptance, I agree, ‘travel on the next available TPE service’ isn’t acceptable. That said, ticket acceptance is a two way process and requires LNER/XC to agree.

BeHereNow · 31 Dec 2019

sjpowermac said:
Introducing new trains at a rate that reduces current cancellations was contained within my post.

I don’t have access to (all!) of the train diagrams so I have no idea if what you propose would work.

With the current timetable changes it seems that TPE have already implemented part of what you are saying.

What people seem to be pointing out is that the mitigations applied haven't done enough to stabilise the service. People aren't moaning about the delay to improvements, it's that the whole thing has fallen to pieces since October.

The driver training and stock availability issues must have been known about in October, which would have given a bit more planning time to defer the extensions. If they weren't known about that is even worse.

sjpowermac · 31 Dec 2019

BeHereNow said:
What people seem to be pointing out is that the mitigations applied haven't done enough to stabilise the service. People aren't moaning about the delay to improvements, it's that the whole thing has fallen to pieces since October.

The driver training and stock availability issues must have been known about in October, which would have given a bit more planning time to defer the extensions. If they weren't known about that is even worse.

At no point have I made any reference to PPM or the state of the service since October. I’d actually say that the service has had problems for longer than that. For well over a year it has been ‘TPE roulette’ for anyone wishing to use their overnight services.

What is noticeable from the thread is that many are big on posturing but short on ideas for how to actually resolve things or offering any insight into how we actually got here in the first place.

Last year the various Nova threads were full of people jumping up and down about why the new trains hadn’t been introduced, I’ll include myself on that list. I listened though to the people who posted about the various reasons for the delays, and actually apologised when reading back through my posts I realised my criticism wasn’t fair.

You’ve made some good suggestions as regards diagramming and deferment of introducing the new trains, it would be interesting to know the reasons why something along those lines can’t happen.

You are one of the few posters who has actually made some reasoned suggestions. It gets a bit tiresome reading post after post about how poor the service is, when even TPE have put their hands up and said they agree.

On the ground, the staff are making a huge effort to keep things going. I’ve seen people (within permitted hours) working beyond their booked relief point just to keep a train running. I’ve also seen that TPE have put in additional support staff at some stations to help customers.

From the rather grotesque and threatening direct messages I’ve had from one of the posters, it seems that some can’t cope with a logical discussion. I thank you for at least putting a reasoned argument!

transmanche · 31 Dec 2019

sjpowermac said:
No, it’s not ideal, but what’s your alternative?

Calm down, dear! I was merely expanding on @gr4991 's post with some context for those who didn't want to wade through the info on the TPE website.

sjpowermac · 31 Dec 2019

transmanche said:
Calm down, dear! I was merely expanding on @gr4991 's post with some context for those who didn't want to wade through the info on the TPE website.

Ah, point taken, apologies

Kieran1990 · 31 Dec 2019

All Huds-Man Picc stoppers currently cancelled. Seems Plat 1 is out of action at Hudds as we left from Plat 4 on 11:00 LDS-LIV.
Wonder if the Hull’s are picking up the calls or buses running?

Edit- passed 68+Mk5a in the Maraden loop. Did it go pop this morning?

Transpennine Express December 2019 Proposals

Member

RailUK Forums

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Guest

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Guest

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Guest

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Guest

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member