Yes, but what about someone who boards the train at a pick-up only station and it's then delayed en-route?No. Due to there not being a timetabled arrival time.
Yes, but what about someone who boards the train at a pick-up only station and it's then delayed en-route?No. Due to there not being a timetabled arrival time.
Then yes. It has no public arrival time but does have a public departure time.Yes, but what about someone who boards the train at a pick-up only station and it's then delayed en-route?
Actually, I made a typo there. I meant to ask about someone who boards at a set-down only station and the train is delayed missing it's scheduled arrival time. Can they make a claim for being delayed? If not it seems a bit unfair given that passengers who boarded at stations before or after would be eligible.Then yes. It has no public arrival time but does have a public departure time.
I looked into this a few years ago and similarly couldn't work out any enforceable mechanism for charging extra if a company's pick up/set down only requests were disregarded.
I believe this has been done on occasion with the Reading pick-up only services.The only way I can see to do it is to occasionally cancel the stop (run a relief for genuine passengers) and overcarry people, then PF or prosecute them for doing so (or simply charge them a new Anytime Single).
No, because there is no valid itinerary to start with, as there is no origin time, so no Delay Repay.Actually, I made a typo there. I meant to ask about someone who boards at a set-down only station and the train is delayed missing it's scheduled arrival time. Can they make a claim for being delayed? If not it seems a bit unfair given that passengers who boarded at stations before or after would be eligible.
I believe this has been done on occasion with the Reading pick-up only services.
Which is one of the aforementioned worms - what if the passenger held a ticket for a longer journey and was changing trains when he boarded the set-down only train rather than waiting for his booked train (let's assume that it was running just a few minutes behind the set-down only train, so that they were both delayed by a similar amount)? Seems paradoxical that by seeking to catching an earlier train he's actually no longer entitled to Delay Repay...No, because there is no valid itinerary to start with, as there is no origin time, so no Delay Repay.
Which is one of the aforementioned worms - what if the passenger held a ticket for a longer journey and was changing trains when he boarded the set-down only train rather than waiting for his booked train (let's assume that it was running just a few minutes behind the set-down only train, so that they were both delayed by a similar amount)? Seems paradoxical that by seeking to catching an earlier train he's actually no longer entitled to Delay Repay...
Oh, no doubt at all that it is an edge case at best. But the scenario I posited is two passengers board a set-down only train at station A. That train is then delayed en-route so that it arrives at B very late (let's say by three hours). Passenger One held a ticket from A to B, Passenger Two held a ticket from some other origin station to B.In reality I suspect this rarely causes problems.
Then if a train was to be skip stopped for operatonal reasons on that occasion, your referring to a printed (or even online) timetable only could cause you to be overcarried. Other information such as a reverse configuration or lack of facilities that could be posted on departure boards might also disadvantage you.I'm curious how many people use departure boards to decide which train to catch. Surely most people are either familiar with the timetable anyway, or use an online or printed one. When I need to unexpectedly catch a train from a large station the last thing I would use is the departure boards as it would take far too long to scan each one to identify the service for the intermediate station I wanted to travel to.
The most I would think many people use departure boards for is to find the correct platform.
If it's really that desparate, put a note on the PIS to say that passengers for High Wycombe are encouraged to take the next service at XX:XX, or simply erect a separate queue where High Wycombe passengers are denied entry and paid the appropriate delay compensation. Alternatively announce that the High Wycombe stop is actually cancelled, and indeed don't stop there.
This is just nonsense to massage PPM whilst avoiding all possible contractual liabilities. Unfortunately it's unlikely to be taken seriously as a breach of the franchise obligation to give accurate information and they might even lie and claim it was a mistake.
It's everything to do with PPM. A train as crowded as you suggest would have higher than normal dwell times and this alone might well cause it to fail PPM - as the threshold for a failure on commuter franchises is only 5 minutes' delay.People will see their booked stop and get on it regardless, especially when you are the first call on a fast service. I've seen this happen at GWR for Reading, Southeastern for Bromley South, GTR for East Croydon. Without it physically being removed from CIS and informing staff its pick up only, you severely disadvantage passengers down the line when passengers at the (usually London) terminal have another service 5-10 minutes later. I'd like to see you try and tell commuters where to stand and shepherd them into a queue at peak times...
This is exclusively a peak-time scenario. Cancelling it causes unnecessary drama to those going from say High Wycombe to say Oxford or Banbury.
It's nothing to do with PPM as the train will still call there and run on the same timetable.
It's everything to do with PPM. A train as crowded as you suggest would have higher than normal dwell times and this alone might well cause it to fail PPM - as the threshold for a failure on commuter franchises is only 5 minutes' delay.
By lying about the calling points fewer people will get on and so it is likely to wrongfully make PPM in terms of punctuality. And in any case any failure to call at a booked station is a PPM failure. Who's betting that Chiltern will still be paying the PPM failure penalty for falsely misadvertising the calling points, out of the goodness of their own hearts?
What of those passengers who end up delayed by more than the Delay Repay threshold for whatever reason (e.g. if they were due to connect to another service at High Wycombe). Do you think Chiltern seriously won't try and claim that the train still called there, despite not being advertised to do so?
It clearly isn't an ideal situation with a clearly defined best solution - but the approach Chiltern have taken here is downright dishonest and I fail to see any circumstances under which it's acceptable for the reasons already outlined. It's simply yet another slimy rail industry policy.
If Chiltern can't be sure that they will operate the required number of coaches to accommodate all passengers then they should withdraw the call permanently. But no - wriggling out of all possible liabilities it is. The wonders of privatisation.
It clearly isn't an ideal situation with a clearly defined best solution - but the approach Chiltern have taken here is downright dishonest and I fail to see any circumstances under which it's acceptable for the reasons already outlined. It's simply yet another slimy rail industry policy.
If Chiltern can't be sure that they will operate the required number of coaches to accommodate all passengers then they should withdraw the call permanently. But no - wriggling out of all possible liabilities it is. The wonders of privatisation.
Then introduce a pickup only restriction. Hardly novel and they already do it on some train services and many late evening RRB services.Removing the stop completely would reduce the service for people boarding the train at High Wycombe, which seems unfair if they can be accommodated but people going to High Wycombe couldn't be.
Then introduce a pickup only restriction.
As posted previously, this is a regular Chilton tactic. Happens often to wycombe customers.
Appears to be a reasonable response to manage crowding on a short formation, but not catching out regulars who don't check the board every day and get over-carried (if the stop were removed entirely).
I've certainly seen other TOCs do it (e.g. XC services arriving at Coventry some years back advertised as 'next stop Wolverhampton' (even through stopping at Intl and New Street)
Everytime there is a wembley stadium event, short of carriages or ticket acceptance of other operators ticketsHow often???
So you are saying that if a train is no longer advertised to call at all its scheduled stations (as here) then this is counted as a PPM failure?If a stop is removed completely on the day the train fails PPM anyway regardless so the assertion it is to manipulate PPM holds no water, but in any case one train will hardly make or break an operator's PPM figures even if it didn't so I am at a complete loss the amount of obsession shown in this thread.
Everytime there is a wembley stadium event, short of carriages or ticket acceptance of other operators tickets
So depends how you define often but frequently enough that it happens to my train about 6 times a year
As I understand it, if it's a STP alteration then no, but if it's done via the VSTP route (i.e. on the day) then it still counts as a failure.So you are saying that if a train is no longer advertised to call at all its scheduled stations (as here) then this is counted as a PPM failure?
So depends how you define often but frequently enough that it happens to my train about 6 times a year
As posted previously, this is a regular Chilton tactic. Happens often to wycombe customers.