Yes, but what about someone who boards the train at a pick-up only station and it's then delayed en-route?
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Chiltern: Deliberately misinforming passengers about the route.
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221129
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Then yes. It has no public arrival time but does have a public departure time.
Actually, I made a typo there. I meant to ask about someone who boards at a set-down only station and the train is delayed missing it's scheduled arrival time. Can they make a claim for being delayed? If not it seems a bit unfair given that passengers who boarded at stations before or after would be eligible.
Bletchleyite
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The only way I can see to do it is to occasionally cancel the stop (run a relief for genuine passengers) and overcarry people, then PF or prosecute them for doing so (or simply charge them a new Anytime Single).
I believe this has been done on occasion with the Reading pick-up only services.
bb21
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No, because there is no valid itinerary to start with, as there is no origin time, so no Delay Repay.
Bletchleyite
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It indeed has, yes.
Which is one of the aforementioned worms - what if the passenger held a ticket for a longer journey and was changing trains when he boarded the set-down only train rather than waiting for his booked train (let's assume that it was running just a few minutes behind the set-down only train, so that they were both delayed by a similar amount)? Seems paradoxical that by seeking to catching an earlier train he's actually no longer entitled to Delay Repay...
bb21
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What do you mean? If you boarded a set-down only train in the middle of your journey then provided your actual delay is not more than what you would have ended up with having caught a valid train, then no reason why Delay Repay cannot be paid.
If you caught an invalid service without permission, ie. instructed by staff to catch it, then if you incurred additional delay I am not sure your journey can necessarily be validated but you should still be entitled to your rightful delay had you caught a valid train.
In reality I suspect this rarely causes problems.
Oh, no doubt at all that it is an edge case at best. But the scenario I posited is two passengers board a set-down only train at station A. That train is then delayed en-route so that it arrives at B very late (let's say by three hours). Passenger One held a ticket from A to B, Passenger Two held a ticket from some other origin station to B.
The consensus seems to be that passenger One isn't entitled to delay repay since he made an 'impossible' journey. But would Passenger Two still be eligible for Delay Repay, or is his journey considered 'impossible' as well?
I'm curious how many people use departure boards to decide which train to catch. Surely most people are either familiar with the timetable anyway, or use an online or printed one. When I need to unexpectedly catch a train from a large station the last thing I would use is the departure boards as it would take far too long to scan each one to identify the service for the intermediate station I wanted to travel to.
The most I would think many people use departure boards for is to find the correct platform.
The most I would think many people use departure boards for is to find the correct platform.
Then if a train was to be skip stopped for operatonal reasons on that occasion, your referring to a printed (or even online) timetable only could cause you to be overcarried. Other information such as a reverse configuration or lack of facilities that could be posted on departure boards might also disadvantage you.
People will see their booked stop and get on it regardless, especially when you are the first call on a fast service. I've seen this happen at GWR for Reading, Southeastern for Bromley South, GTR for East Croydon. Without it physically being removed from CIS and informing staff its pick up only, you severely disadvantage passengers down the line when passengers at the (usually London) terminal have another service 5-10 minutes later. I'd like to see you try and tell commuters where to stand and shepherd them into a queue at peak times...
This is exclusively a peak-time scenario. Cancelling it causes unnecessary drama to those going from say High Wycombe to say Oxford or Banbury.
It's nothing to do with PPM as the train will still call there and run on the same timetable.
ForTheLoveOf
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It's everything to do with PPM. A train as crowded as you suggest would have higher than normal dwell times and this alone might well cause it to fail PPM - as the threshold for a failure on commuter franchises is only 5 minutes' delay.
By lying about the calling points fewer people will get on and so it is likely to wrongfully make PPM in terms of punctuality. And in any case any failure to call at a booked station is a PPM failure. Who's betting that Chiltern will still be paying the PPM failure penalty for falsely misadvertising the calling points, out of the goodness of their own hearts?
What of those passengers who end up delayed by more than the Delay Repay threshold for whatever reason (e.g. if they were due to connect to another service at High Wycombe). Do you think Chiltern seriously won't try and claim that the train still called there, despite not being advertised to do so?
It clearly isn't an ideal situation with a clearly defined best solution - but the approach Chiltern have taken here is downright dishonest and I fail to see any circumstances under which it's acceptable for the reasons already outlined. It's simply yet another slimy rail industry policy.
If Chiltern can't be sure that they will operate the required number of coaches to accommodate all passengers then they should withdraw the call permanently. But no - wriggling out of all possible liabilities it is. The wonders of privatisation.
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devonexpress
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No of course not, on GWR for example at Didcot Parkway, the stopping services to Paddington, are advertised as if they only run to Ealing Broadway, to encourage passengers to use the faster non stop services only calling at Reading.
If a train is failing PPM due to dwell times even if it's crush-loaded, then there is a much much more serious issue. Dwell time on that service is normally 60 seconds. Even crush-loaded, it would take maybe 3 minutes to get everyone on and off. I don't know what the rules are on Delay Repay (but I'd say it stood a good chance if it wasn't advertised and you had proof of that although the next service arrives at High Wycombe 17 mins later) and the PPM aspect is a grey area if it does stop but passengers don't know. You're probably right it might not be a failure.
Sometimes companies need to look at the wider picture such as what might be a moderate inconvenience for a moderate amount of passengers could be a huge inconvenience for a smaller amount of passengers. These are judgments calls Control will have to make. Chiltern are not alone in these practices to assist their passengers away from London be able to actually board trains when there is some form of disruption or to encourage a more even loading of passengers. Your hyperbole is unnecessary.
I don't see this as a "slimy rail industry policy" it seems to me a sensible solution. There are two other service fairly close to this one that are available. Many operators have a few set down only stops on odd trains.
Removing the stop completely would reduce the service for people boarding the train at High Wycombe, which seems unfair if they can be accommodated but people going to High Wycombe couldn't be.
ForTheLoveOf
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Then introduce a pickup only restriction. Hardly novel and they already do it on some train services and many late evening RRB services.
Of course Chiltern will likely be under a franchise obligation to run the relevant services. If this is the case then it would be a breach of their franchise to make the stop pickup only. So to avoid the potential penalties of this, not to mention the PPM failure penalties that are rightfully owed, it's easiest simply to lie about the calling points. The DfT will never rap them over the knuckles over something like that.
Don't forget, either, that Chiltern season ticket holders are one of few groups to still be eligible for renewal discounts based on reliability and puncutality. If performance is artificially inflated in the way that this practice enables (e.g. "reducing" cancellations and thereby improving the reliability score), season ticket holders may be being made to pay full whack where they should actually receive a discount. That's bordering on fraud IMO.
I recognise, as I've said before, that there's no perfect solution to this. But having varying different forms of misinformation and lies is clearly just about the worst possible approach.
t_star2001uk
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But why would a pick up restriction need to be in place for what was a decision which only affected that particular train on that particular night....
The 17:50 was always a very busy train with a large number of passengers travelling to High Wycombe. So for a 9 car to be reduced to a 5 car, would make it very uncomfortable, maybe even dangerous. The decision was made to make the High Wycombe stop pick up only in an attempt to move passengers on to less busy services. The 17:50 still called at High Wycombe so all of the existing passengers on board were not moved to another train.
There was not any lies told, no "slimy rail industry practice". It was an operational decision to move as many people in the peak as possible without 9 cars of passengers (with luggage, Bromptons etc) being crammed in to a 5 car train.
Unfortunately it seems that we are dammed if we do and dammed if we dont. Of course the other option would have been a cancellation then everybody suffers and then this thread would not exist. But we try and move as many people as we can with the minimum of problems.
(Yes i was on duty that night when all of this occurred)
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bb21
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It's nothing to do with PPM and everything to do with trying to accommodate the needs of every passenger, or as many as possible, where usually longer distance passengers have far less options.
If a stop is removed completely on the day the train fails PPM anyway regardless so the assertion it is to manipulate PPM holds no water, but in any case one train will hardly make or break an operator's PPM figures even if it didn't so I am at a complete loss the amount of obsession shown in this thread.
Any change to the calling pattern, including pick-up/set-down restrictions will be control decisions so should be in the control log therefore can be easily verified in the event of a Delay Repay dispute.
If a stop is removed completely on the day the train fails PPM anyway regardless so the assertion it is to manipulate PPM holds no water, but in any case one train will hardly make or break an operator's PPM figures even if it didn't so I am at a complete loss the amount of obsession shown in this thread.
Any change to the calling pattern, including pick-up/set-down restrictions will be control decisions so should be in the control log therefore can be easily verified in the event of a Delay Repay dispute.
Jamiescott1
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Yes there are other trains to wycombe that depart around 1750, but the quickest arrives 17 minutes later than the 1750 in wycombe.
After a full day at work and an expected 23 minute journey, 17 minutes is a loy
After a full day at work and an expected 23 minute journey, 17 minutes is a loy
Jamiescott1
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As posted previously, this is a regular Chilton tactic. Happens often to wycombe customers.
Especially if delays on WCML and ticket acceptance on chiltern. That's really frustrating as passengers that are not paying chiltern anything are prioritised over chiltern passengers
Especially if delays on WCML and ticket acceptance on chiltern. That's really frustrating as passengers that are not paying chiltern anything are prioritised over chiltern passengers
t_star2001uk
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How often???
Aictos
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Indeed and it’s not like there are not other services for High Wycombe, really don’t see a problem as they’re managing overcrowding which does happen on short formations and not because they’re massaging their PPM performance figures like one user alluded that they are doing!
Jamiescott1
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Everytime there is a wembley stadium event, short of carriages or ticket acceptance of other operators tickets
So depends how you define often but frequently enough that it happens to my train about 6 times a year
ForTheLoveOf
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So you are saying that if a train is no longer advertised to call at all its scheduled stations (as here) then this is counted as a PPM failure?
It isn't an obsession to find the tactics used here improper. Rather than apologising for not being able to provide the required number of carriages, Chiltern resort to lies and misinformation to cover their own backsides. Doesn't seem very apologetic.
If a passenger lies about where they got on to skip a bit of the fare, the TOCs don't take too kindly to that if they find out the truth. Why should passengers not be entitled to be just as annoyed if they discover the TOC has been lying?
Llanigraham
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6 times a year is NOT frequently!
As I understand it, if it's a STP alteration then no, but if it's done via the VSTP route (i.e. on the day) then it still counts as a failure.
Let's look at some numbers. The seated capacity of a 9 car 168 (the 1750 should be 3x3 car) is 612 passengers and - for PIXC (Passengers In eXcess of Capacity) purposes - the standing capacity is assumed to be 35% of that (i.e. 214) to give a total theoretical passenger count of 826.
Without knowing the exact formation on the date in question, we have various possibilities to consider - though some are more likely than others:
Of course, you could always vote with your feet/wallet and use GWR to Marlow instead...except that takes 50 minutes and involves changing at Maidenhead and again at Bourne End in the peaks.
Without knowing the exact formation on the date in question, we have various possibilities to consider - though some are more likely than others:
- 2-car 168 + 3-car 168 = 340 seats + 119 standees = 459 passengers (55.6% of the capacity of the booked formation)
- 172 + 3-car 168 = 348 seats + 121 standees = 469 passengers (56.8%)
- 2-car 165 + 3-car 168 = 380 seats + 133 standees = 513 passengers (62.1%) - But you lose at least 7 minutes on the trip as you're now limited to 75mph
- 2-car 168 + 3-car 165 = 400 seats + 140 standees = 540 passengers (65.4%) - Again loses at least 7 minutes
- 172 + 3-car 165 = 408 seats + 142 standees = 550 passengers (66.6%) - Ditto
- 2-car 165 + 3-car 165 = 440 seats + 154 standees = 594 passengers (71.9%) - And again
Of course, you could always vote with your feet/wallet and use GWR to Marlow instead...except that takes 50 minutes and involves changing at Maidenhead and again at Bourne End in the peaks.
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t_star2001uk
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So, Wembley events are advertised alterations and this thread is about an operational decision to make a stop pick up only on a particular day when the service was short formed. As to how i define often, i believe it was you who made a statement back in post #52
I wouldnt say it was regular or even often, but that is subjective. But what is your definition of regular, 6 times a year isnt that often....
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