Transpennine Express December 2019 Proposals

Kieran1990 said:

All Huds-Man Picc stoppers currently cancelled. Seems Plat 1 is out of action at Hudds as we left from Plat 4 on 11:00 LDS-LIV.
Wonder if the Hull’s are picking up the calls or buses running?

Edit- passed 68+Mk5a in the Maraden loop. Did it go pop this morning?

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Yes, 1F54 cancelled at Huddersfield.
Unconfirmed reports of ‘a problem with the traction equipment’: 68023.

Link below to the schedule:
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y33127/2019-12-31/detailed

Boysteve said:

@sjpowermac;
I do not have a magic plan to make everything better, and one may not be possible. My gripe is that I have no confidence in the management. Two weeks ago they cancel so many trains until 5th January but after 5th January everything was supposed to run. Now, the cancellations last in many cases until 24th January. HOWEVER, during the last two weeks people could still book tickets for the trains now cancelled between 5th and 24th January. To me this smacks of the management having no clue how long it will take to fix the problem. They have not to grips with the size of the issue. On 15th December when they made the first pre-cancellation announcement they obviously had no clear timeline of how long it was going to actually take to train all the drivers to provide the basic service. Do they now have this? Well we shall see what happens after 24th January!
Also, they need to be really clear on ticket acceptance no matter how much it costs them. If they cancel so many successive trains to wherever on their network as has happened at Liverpool, Newcastle on MANY occasions then they need to refund people in FULL who feel they have no choice to but buy a walk-up ticket there and then for Northern/LNER/XC to replace their TPEx only tickets. Maybe they are doing this but I suspect it will not be universal. They need to make a statement about this with the ticket acceptance guidelines.

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Having just re-read your post, I actually agree with almost all you’ve put there.

Selling AP tickets for trains they were in anyway doubtful about running isn’t acceptable.

Agree too about refunding people who end up having to buy an open ticket where ticket acceptance hasn’t been arranged.

I don’t think though that I have argued against either point.

Regarding the TPE management, I’m not sure which level of management you are referring to. I think the people managing staff on the ground and planning train crew/rolling stock diagrams are working hard to cope with the situation they find themselves in.

If you are talking about more senior staff then I really don’t have any take on that, you might know the situation better than I do.

In summary, I don’t think I’ve disagreed with you on anything other than sacking Leo, and I have no opinion on that, other than I’m not convinced it would help.

sjpowermac said:

Typical comment for this thread, quoting a figure that has nothing to do with the post I made.

I don’t remember saying anything about PPM, what I said was that I’d had an enjoyable day on the Liverpool to Scarborough route and noted that there were three Nova 3 trains in service.

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Which is the point I was making. You need to look at the bigger picture and not just the lovely noise the 68s make.

Bertie the bus said:

Which is the point I was making. You need to look at the bigger picture and not just the lovely noise the 68s make.

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Oh, thank you so much for the advice.

I travel on a variety of TPE trains on a regular basis and I’m well aware of the cancellations and PPM.

I didn’t reference either in my post and merely commented with a that the service on the Scarborough line was better yesterday, which it was. All fallen apart a bit today mind...

Boysteve said:

Given how terrible the service is on TPEx I do not understand why the same small number of contributors to this thread are sympathetic towards them. Maybe you are Leo Goodwin and his cronies?

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Your use of the word "cronies" above certainly lets all of us know on which side of this divide you are on. Did Father Christmas bring you a copy of the "RMT
Guide to Press Releases"?

With all this going on on the north trans pennine routes theirs not much talk about the South pennine route is this largely unaffected by the problems. As people has said on here TPE should forget about the Edinburgh extension from Newcastle and the Liverpool to Glasgow till May and see if this will ease the problems.

There are some posts of a journey planning / fare advice / fare dispute nature, which I will respond to in the Fare Advice & Policy section shortly. (edit: reply can be found here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tpe-ticketing-issues-disputes.197561/)

Let's keep this thread for the timetable changes please

I'm not fully aware of the reasons behind the Edinburgh extensions going ahead but for all those desperate for TPE to can them all and focus on the core, aren't the Nova 1s (802's) meant to be being maintained at Craigentinny (and Manchester?). Might this be a reason TPE went ahead with some of these extensions, I can't remember where I saw/read about the 802's maintenance but it might have been one of modern railways magazine

sjpowermac said:

I hadn’t realised that the Nova 3 trains on the Liverpool to Scarborough route were only available to enthusiasts...

Three Nova 3 sets in traffic yesterday, four today, bringing a big uplift in capacity.

I suppose though that doesn’t fit your narrative, does it?

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A narrative implies a story. If only it was just a story, rather than months of misery for thousands, including the type now that risks people getting sacked for not being able to get to work. And risking their personal relationships as lives centred on struggling to get to and from work in a reasonable time (or indeed at all) inevitably takes its toll.

Let's get this straight. Pre new trains/alterations the service was poor, but at least most trains ran. New services didn't have to be launched before they were ready. Frequencies on already overcrowded routes didn't have to be halved (and then cancelled, cancelled, cancelled...)

It's been a catastrophe of a roll out, and a catastrophe of a year for millions of passengers in the northern region. I don't think an appropriate and respectful amount of contrition (resignation of the entire senior team) is too much to expect.

The new trains might not be reserved for train enthusiasts, but I feel confident they would be the only ones onboard not feeling royally cheesed off.

You seem to be able to empathise with a TOC and its well rewarded upper echelons. It would be good if you could redistribute that to the passengers and day to day staff.

sjpowermac said:

Which is exactly the point I’m making. TPE could take a much more leisurely approach to introducing their new fleets but then the forum would be filled full of posts along the lines of ‘why am I travelling on a 3 car Class 185 that’s completely rammed, when there are five car Nova 1 trains sat at Heaton awaiting crew training.’

And by the way, LNER are cancelling and short forming trains, 5 car Azuma vice 10 cars is common. Ironically on two of the days they were trundling an HST about ‘one last time’ several of their Anglo-Scottish services were cancelled...

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If you compare the PPM LNERs cancellations at least looks respectable. Take a quick look today. TPEs is bad to put it nicely.

As for the short forming. A short train is better then no train. I was on a 5 car Azuma vice 9 car the other Sunday. Everyone got a seat. Can’t say for certain that happens in every case, and it is still not acceptable but certainly better then giving parts of routes no service at all.

my view is as it always was. TPE should not have introduced their services primarily aimed at extraction of revenue from other franchised operations until they could resource them. However as that would probably result in then handing back the keys - we are where we are.
They deserve most of the flak then get as it is greed that has put them in this hole. Didn’t learn much from May 2018.

86247 said:

With all this going on on the north trans pennine routes theirs not much talk about the South pennine route is this largely unaffected by the problems. As people has said on here TPE should forget about the Edinburgh extension from Newcastle and the Liverpool to Glasgow till May and see if this will ease the problems.

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South TPE hasn't had things as bad. The main issue is 3-car when 6 has been promised especially in peaks and weekends when football matches are taking place especially now that Sheffield United are in the Prem.

sjpowermac said:

I had an enjoyable day today on the Liverpool to Scarborough route, three Nova 3s in traffic, solid service to Scarborough with just the first one off/last one to there cancelled. Yet nobody comments about that, so I will

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I'm not sure how you can describe this as a "solid service". The 06.34 departure was cancelled, which means those who got up early to catch (and presumably they had a good reason to need that service) would instead endure a 60 minute wait on Scarborough station for the next service.

The 11.51 arrival was cancelled, which of course means an hour's delay for incoming passengers. Then later on the 22.03 arrival was cancelled - another 48 minute wait therefore late in the day for incoming passengers, the last departure of the day 22.45 cancelled as the last arrival at 23.31 which presumably meant taxi or replacement bus for those passengers.

Imagine what those cancellations would mean for anyone waiting at Seamer, where there are no facilities whatsoever except an open hut to wait in. What would that be like for anyone in late December, but worse imagine for an elderly or other vulnerable person, or a parent with young children in tow.

I do appreciate there have been a multitude of problems, and things do appear to be improving a little, however, improving from an appalling low level of service. When people complain, please also see this in the context of how long this has been going on. First the disastrous May 2018 timetable change, which led to many many service being turned short at Malton. This went on for over half a year. Then after services picked up somewhat (though still unacceptable, with some hefty inbound delays) we once again saw them wrecked, even to a worse level than in 2018. Obviously while most of us accept there have been challenges, to have a dreadful service, including multiple cancellations, now for the past 20 months, is just wholly unacceptable. It is not acceptable to be told "catch the next available service" when it is not due for another 60 minutes.

Camden said:

A narrative implies a story. If only it was just a story, rather than months of misery for thousands, including the type now that risks people getting sacked for not being able to get to work. And risking their personal relationships as lives centred on struggling to get to and from work in a reasonable time (or indeed at all) inevitably takes its toll.

Let's get this straight. Pre new trains/alterations the service was poor, but at least most trains ran. New services didn't have to be launched before they were ready. Frequencies on already overcrowded routes didn't have to be halved (and then cancelled, cancelled, cancelled...)

It's been a catastrophe of a roll out, and a catastrophe of a year for millions of passengers in the northern region. I don't think an appropriate and respectful amount of contrition (resignation of the entire senior team) is too much to expect.

The new trains might not be reserved for train enthusiasts, but I feel confident you your kind will be the only ones onboard not feeling royally cheesed off.

You seem to be able to empathise with a TOC and its well rewarded upper echelons. How come this empathy is reserved only for them?

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I still don’t remember having written anything about PPM in any of my posts...

In post 474 I have given you my understanding of how we have got here, I notice that you have failed to engage with any of those points other than dismissing them as ‘empathy’ with the ‘upper echelons of the TOC and dismissing me as a mere train enthusiast (a label that I’m actually more than happy to wear).

Your solution appears to be to delay the introduction of the new trains, something that I actually suggested earlier...

scarby said:

I'm not sure how you can describe this as a "solid service". The 06.34 departure was cancelled, which means those who got up early to catch (and presumably they had a good reason to need that service) would instead endure a 60 minute wait on Scarborough station for the next service.

The 11.51 arrival was cancelled, which of course means an hour's delay for incoming passengers. Then later on the 22.03 arrival was cancelled - another 48 minute wait therefore late in the day for incoming passengers, the last departure of the day 22.45 cancelled as the last arrival at 23.31 which presumably meant taxi or replacement bus for those passengers.

Imagine what those cancellations would mean for anyone waiting at Seamer, where there are no facilities whatsoever except an open hut to wait in. What would that be like for anyone in late December, but worse imagine for an elderly or other vulnerable person, or a parent with young children in tow.

I do appreciate there have been a multitude of problems, and things do appear to be improving a little, however, improving from an appalling low level of service. When people complain, please also see this in the context of how long this has been going on. First the disastrous May 2018 timetable change, which led to many many service being turned short at Malton. This went on for over half a year. Then after services picked up somewhat (though still unacceptable, with some hefty inbound delays) we once again saw them wrecked, even to a worse level than in 2018. Obviously while most of us accept there have been challenges, to have a dreadful service, including multiple cancellations, now for the past 20 months, is just wholly unacceptable. It is not acceptable to be told "catch the next available service" when it is not due for another 60 minutes.

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Ah, another selective quote. I’d already noted that the early and later trains were cancelled.

You are materially incorrect about the 11:51 arrival, it did actually run, albeit a little late.

Jamesrob637 said:

South TPE hasn't had things as bad. The main issue is 3-car when 6 has been promised especially in peaks and weekends when football matches are taking place especially now that Sheffield United are in the Prem.

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South route PPM for December is considerably higher than other routes at 63%, but still the worst ever month for performance on this route.

http://trains.im/ppmhistorical/TP/99/monthly

Most of this debate is about boring old trains and PPM.
However, we also know that First Group is in a fragile state financially and corporately, for reasons mostly outside the rail portfolio.
Their mid-year report paints a complex picture about TPE's financial performance.
They already accepted last year that there would be a loss over the TPE franchise of £106m.
This year they say they are claiming refunds from DfT for infrastructure issues impacting the May 2018 and May/December 2019 timetable changes.
The report makes clear that another £83m is at stake if these claims are not met by DfT.
Their current performance against their roll-out plan calls into question the viability of this claim.
There is a lot at stake for TPE, and First Group overall, in the challenge they have to deliver the financial results promised.

https://www.firstgroupplc.com/~/med...ease/half-year-results-2019-press-release.pdf

(page 11)
If the settlement we achieve with the DfT and RNP is below our estimate and we do not recover the significant majority of the amounts included in our franchise change requests there would be a material impact on the reported financial results, including increases in the loss for the relevant period, the value of the impairment to the right of use assets, and the recoverability of amounts recognised as amounts recoverable on contracts. If our estimate of the settlement is not achieved the maximum additional unavoidable loss under the TPE franchise contract would be £83m, £5m lower than at the start of the year due to the repayment of Additional Funding Commitment in the first half of the year.

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Failed Unit said:

If you compare the PPM LNERs cancellations at least looks respectable. Take a quick look today. TPEs is bad to put it nicely.

As for the short forming. A short train is better then no train. I was on a 5 car Azuma vice 9 car the other Sunday. Everyone got a seat. Can’t say for certain that happens in every case, and it is still not acceptable but certainly better then giving parts of routes no service at all.

my view is as it always was. TPE should not have introduced their services primarily aimed at extraction of revenue from other franchised operations until they could resource them. However as that would probably result in then handing back the keys - we are where we are.
They deserve most of the flak then get as it is greed that has put them in this hole. Didn’t learn much from May 2018.

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All of which again implies I defended the PPM for TPE, which I didn’t.

LNW-GW Joint said:

Most of this debate is about boring old trains and PPM.
However, we also know that First Group is in a fragile state financially and corporately, for reasons mostly outside the rail portfolio.
Their mid-year report paints a complex picture about TPE's financial performance.
They already accepted last year that there would be a loss over the TPE franchise of £106m.
This year they say they are claiming refunds from DfT for infrastructure issues impacting the May 2018 and May/December 2019 timetable changes.
The report makes clear that another £83m is at stake if these claims are not met by DfT.
Their current performance against their roll-out plan calls into question the viability of this claim.
There is a lot at stake for TPE, and First Group overall, in the challenge they have to deliver the financial results promised.

https://www.firstgroupplc.com/~/med...ease/half-year-results-2019-press-release.pdf

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Which I think is actually where the problem comes from.

In all of this ‘Transport for the North’, the outfit overseeing the TPE franchise have been strangely quiet. Yes, there have recently been a few mutterings from them about things not being as they should but there have certainly not been any proposals to take any kind of action.

Boysteve said:

To me this smacks of the management having no clue how long it will take to fix the problem. They have not to grips with the size of the issue.

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I think if you approached a mathematician and asked them to write an algorithm, taking into account all of the various factors that influence driver availability, they’d probably tell you that the reliability of the data would be compromised after 30 minutes.
There are so many factors at play that it’s almost impossible to say exactly how many days it will take to train all the drivers. Sickness, annual leave, service disruption affecting working hours, unit availability due to technical faults, network/infrastructure issues resulting in lost training days, acts of God... I don’t think it’s that they haven’t got to grips with it - I just think it’s a much bigger challenge than people on this forum realise.

Boysteve said:

Also, they need to be really clear on ticket acceptance no matter how much it costs them. If they cancel so many successive trains to wherever on their network as has happened at Liverpool, Newcastle on MANY occasions then they need to refund people in FULL who feel they have no choice to but buy a walk-up ticket there and then for Northern/LNER/XC to replace their TPEx only tickets.

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Delay Repay would enable anybody with a TPE only ticket to claim a refund if they abandoned their travel plans (I.e. not taking a rail replacement bus) due to a cancellation. Ticket acceptance is hard - imagine being LNER and granting acceptance to TPE for the next month. How do you reliably predict the number of pax travelling? How can LNER be sure that their customers are not being short-changed? Given that it’s been mentioned already about them short-forming, I don’t think they’re necessarily in the right position themselves to be offering anything like full acceptance.

BeHereNow said:

Bearing in mind that these decisions should have been made prior to the timetable change, and that the 350s still go to LNW, here's what the mitigation could have been. It assumes they aren't prepared to lease additional stock.

1) Defer introduction of Edinburgh extension til May as insufficient drivers trained on 802s
2) Defer introduction of Liverpool to Glasgow services to May as not enough drivers trained and not enough stick available
3) Defer all 185 strengthening as any spare 185s initially needed for Scottish route.

This reduces the number of units (and crews) required to run the base timetable by 6 plus any strengthening diagrams.

This way the only extra units you need are the ones to resource the changes to Newcastle and Redcar to Airport services.

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sjpowermac said:

You’ve made some good suggestions as regards diagramming and deferment of introducing the new trains, it would be interesting to know the reasons why something along those lines can’t happen.

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The key limitation with that plan is that you provide no mechanism to train the crews. You might recall the Nova 3 roll-out where train crew were getting their practical handling hours whilst the train was in service. This was a good solution as it kept trains moving and gave crews a real experience of working the unit. The point being that you need some Nova units in traffic.

Specifically with the likes of the Edinburgh services, this is not just the case of learning the traction, but also signing the route. Having several regular runs up and down allows drivers to be route conducted over the section before passing out. Why would you want to pay a driver and route conductor to do that on a train that wasn’t in service? There’s also the small matter of the maintenance depots for the 802s and by keeping some LIV-EBD diagrams in operation you make the cycling of 802s much more efficient.

The LIV - GLC route is a bit of a misnomer. As it is currently worked by Class 185, the only thing for the crew to learn is the route from PRE to LIV. Some drivers will already sign this. The fact that there are only a couple of services a day means that it carries a much smaller impact on service than you might think.

Strengthening of Class 185 services is currently operating on a “where possible” basis. Nobody is stupid enough to run loads of 6 car units when there’s 185 competent staff sat in mess rooms who can’t work the Nova 3 that’s about to pull in.

tpjm said:

The key limitation with that plan is that you provide no mechanism to train the crews. You might recall the Nova 3 roll-out where train crew were getting their practical handling hours whilst the train was in service. This was a good solution as it kept trains moving and gave crews a real experience of working the unit. The point being that you need some Nova units in traffic.

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Thank you for the detailed and thoughtful response.

I know I’ll be accused by some of showing too much empathy, but it does look like a very tricky situation with no quick or easy solutions.

My observation on the ground has been that there’s a lot of effort going into keeping the job going and I’m sure that’s the case in planning too.

tpjm said:

Delay Repay would enable anybody with a TPE only ticket to claim a refund if they abandoned their travel plans (I.e. not taking a rail replacement bus) due to a cancellation. Ticket acceptance is hard - imagine being LNER and granting acceptance to TPE for the next month. How do you reliably predict the number of pax travelling? How can LNER be sure that their customers are not being short-changed? Given that it’s been mentioned already about them short-forming, I don’t think they’re necessarily in the right position themselves to be offering anything like full acceptance.

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Short forming on LNER is no-where near as bad implied on this thread. Maybe a couple of diagrams a day, pretty similar to what TPE do on the South Pennie route every day. Couple this with LNER try to focus the short-forming on the quieter services (Sorry Leeds)

However are LNER actaully getting anything for carrying TPE passengers? Because to me they should be refusing outright. This service only exists to extract thier (and XC) revenue and damage thier businesses. It seems commercailly suicide for LNER to accept a TPE only ticket if they are not getting something out of it. Refusing acceptance may make the customer think - I won't use these again as they can't operate reliably and hurt them on the balance seat, which is the only thing first group understand.

I suffered a lot of pain when LNER accepted Hull trains passengers. Hull trains passengers took the seat reservations with the view "I had a seat reserved, my train was cancelled so I am entitled to a seat - your seat as you got on after me" basically forcing LNER passengers to stand. They could get the same problem accepting TPE passengers so not only are TPE extracting thier revenue but also forcing thier own customer to stand / have a less comfortable journey by expecting the seat reservation to be honoured. You are already seeing TPE passengers tweating they the enjoyed the breakfast that wasn't included in thier ticket price - I wonder how that goes down with someone getting on a York and find out that all the breakfasts are eaten because of the extra TPE passengers?

sjpowermac said:

My observation on the ground has been that there’s a lot of effort going into keeping the job going and I’m sure that’s the case in planning too.

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I don't think anyone will ever dispute that, like many of the other companies having problems the staff are the ones that work hard and take the brunt of things. The senior management don't really care unless it hits the group in the pocket.

Luckily for the staff, if anything happened to first group, they can carry on working hard and providing the best service thier senior management lets them with whoever takes over.

Failed Unit said:

Short forming on LNER is no-where near as bad implied on this thread. Maybe a couple of diagrams a day, pretty similar to what TPE do on the South Pennie route every day. Couple this with LNER try to focus the short-forming on the quieter services (Sorry Leeds)

However are LNER actaully getting anything for carrying TPE passengers? Because to me they should be refusing outright. This service only exists to extract thier (and XC) revenue and damage thier businesses. It seems commercailly suicide for LNER to accept a TPE only ticket if they are not getting something out of it. Refusing acceptance may make the customer think - I won't use these again as they can't operate reliably and hurt them on the balance seat, which is the only thing first group understand.

I suffered a lot of pain when LNER accepted Hull trains passengers. Hull trains passengers took the seat reservations with the view "I had a seat reserved, my train was cancelled so I am entitled to a seat - your seat as you got on after me" basically forcing LNER passengers to stand. They could get the same problem accepting TPE passengers so not only are TPE extracting thier revenue but also forcing thier own customer to stand / have a less comfortable journey by expecting the seat reservation to be honoured. You are already seeing TPE passengers tweating they the enjoyed the breakfast that wasn't included in thier ticket price - I wonder how that goes down with someone getting on a York and find out that all the breakfasts are eaten because of the extra TPE passengers?

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Excellent post and I strongly agree with all of the above.

Failed Unit said:

However are LNER actaully getting anything for carrying TPE passengers?

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We don't know the answer to that at this moment in time, however;

• LNER may well attempt to recover some money from TPE in the future
• Since LNER is, at the moment, in the public sector a FOI request could be made asking that question

PG said:

We don't know the answer to that at this moment in time, however;

• LNER may well attempt to recover some money from TPE in the future
• Since LNER is, at the moment, in the public sector a FOI request could be made asking that question

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It is possible that LNER may, at some point in the dim and distant future, be glad to have TPE trains to take their stranded passengers after problems south of York, or north of Edinburgh. Just saying. What comes around goes around.

tpjm said:

The key limitation with that plan is that you provide no mechanism to train the crews. You might recall the Nova 3 roll-out where train crew were getting their practical handling hours whilst the train was in service. This was a good solution as it kept trains moving and gave crews a real experience of working the unit. The point being that you need some Nova units in traffic.

Specifically with the likes of the Edinburgh services, this is not just the case of learning the traction, but also signing the route. Having several regular runs up and down allows drivers to be route conducted over the section before passing out. Why would you want to pay a driver and route conductor to do that on a train that wasn’t in service? There’s also the small matter of the maintenance depots for the 802s and by keeping some LIV-EBD diagrams in operation you make the cycling of 802s much more efficient.

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There are already 802s and Mk5s in service - could they not be used for that? Surely the driver training has to be done either way, and running fewer service miles would enable more trains to be covered.

The reason for not running Liverpool Glasgow was to reduce unit resources when having to offlease stock as it clearly hasn't helped having to get 397s into service so quickly.

Senior management at TPE are very focused on delivering, and selling, extra capacity. They need it to meet franchise premium payments, passengers need it after years of overcrowding. The problem is that the delivery is not going anything like to plan, and no one (TPE/DfT/whoever) seems to be able or willing to take a step back, take stock of where things are, and make a new, properly resourced and deliverable plan. At the moment the only policy seems to be to carry on regardless, and take the pain for future gain. I'm not sure that's the option which passengers would choose, but they don't have a say in the matter.

It's not capacity. Honestly. It's the Edinburgh paths. If it were about capacity all the extensions would have been deferred 6 months.

Failed Unit said:

Refusing acceptance may make the customer think - I won't use these again as they can't operate reliably and hurt them on the balance seat, which is the only thing first group understand.

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More likely they'll think "Oh the railway is unreliable I won't use them at all next time and take the car instead". I honestly cannot believe that anyone would advocate for TOCs refusing ticket acceptance to punish passengers?! There are reasons why it maybe should be refused (operator Xs trains are already epxeted to be full and standing so can't accommodate operators Ys passengers) but punishing passengers? Really?

I do wonder if they will in the end decide to leave it until May to resume these trains? Or are they supposed to be adding something else in 2020?