CrossCountry Voyagers: No interior decor change in 12 years and counting

The Ham · 28 Dec 2019

hooverboy said:
precisely.
you want to know where assets are to be deployed and how much it will cost. Most contracts will get a much,much better rate on a long term lease(7-10 years) than a short one.(12-24 mth)

However there's nothing stopping the DfT offering a 7-10 year lease on a 80x and then sub lease it to whoever wants it if the next XC franchise doesn't want it.

Anyway, chances are that any new franchise would want to keep any 80x for a least 2, if not 3, years after the start of any new franchise to allow them to begin in their own fleet. As such it's likely that, even if a new extension wasn't needed you'd be looking at a minimum of half of a 7 year lease before they were likely to be replaced anyway.

However, currently, the most likely replacement fleet would be 80x's anyway. As such, unless the TOC could get a better deal, the new units would likely stay at XC for the life of the next franchise anyway.

You wouldn't need many to make a noticeable difference. As for each extra unit brought in you could
- replace a 5 coach unit with a 5 coach 80x
- replace a 4 coach unit with the above 5 coach unit
- switch a 4 coach unit with another 5 coach unit
- pair up the 4 coach units (i.e. replace a 5 coach unit with a 4+4 coach train)

With just 10 units that's enough to increase capacity for every 5 coach unit within the fleet (either by replacing with a 4+4 train or a 5 coach 80x). It would also increase capacity for the 4 coach fleet to 5 coaches for half the fleet.

Even once you've run out of 5 coach units you can still do the following:
- replace 4 coach unit with a 5 coach 80x
- pair the above unit with another 4 coach unit (i.e 4+4 coach train)

To do this for every unit would take up to a further 10 units. However you may not need to double up ask the way to the outer edges of the network and there could be some diagrams which wouldn't need doubling up.

Probably what's needed (assuming extra units in 2023 from ICWC) is an extra 5-10 units and increase capacity now, with more capacity from extra units when they are available.

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The Fox 4846 · 28 Dec 2019

The ideal scenario would be an order of 23x802 to replace all trains on the Edinburgh to Plymouth route which in turn would release the HST’ and would enable all 38 Voyager 4-Car Units to become 19 8-car Voyager Units which would leave XC with:
19 x 4+4 Voyagers
23 x 7 802(IET)
20 x 5 Voyagers (221)

Unfortunately this probably won’t happen but the DfT could instead order around half the number of units (14) for the NEW-RDG service which would allow other services to have an additional 4-car unit from New St to Bristol/Oxford/Manchester/Leeds.

Unfortunately due to Depot arrangements the new IET’s would have to operate a service wholly in order for PR to also be effective. As a result these are the only two scenarios to better the franchise and neither look likely.

Of course their are other temporary options such as sourcing HST’s for EDB-PLY with the current withdrawal of 125’s or leasing the 180’s from Hull Trains although both are not great due to reliability issues that would occur with both.

Hopefully these issues can be sorted with the new franchise operator with backing from the DfT

S-Bahn · 29 Dec 2019

I've posted before that:

Short term - HST's to help capacity issues and double up some current Voyagers.
Mid Term - cascade Avanti Voyagers and EMR Meridians - retire HST's
Long Term - 80x 7-8 car Bi-modes.

However, I can't help but think that all that will happen is the cascade of Avanti Voyagers in a couple of years and the replacing of carpet and upholstery and 10 years from now they will be contemplating replacing the fleet.

Mordac · 29 Dec 2019

No one's going to be ordering new sliding door HSTs after the debacle with the ScotRail order.

S-Bahn · 29 Dec 2019

Mordac said:
No one's going to be ordering new sliding door HSTs after the debacle with the ScotRail order.

I don't know enough about the Scot-rail issues to comment, but the GWR HST's have been an absolute godsend for relieving overcrowding on Cardiff-Bristol and the SW.

As I said - ultra-short term only before Avanti's Voyagers (and hopefully EMR's Meridians) become available.

The Fox 4846 · 29 Dec 2019

Could XC use the 125 Power Cars with Mark 4 carridges from the retiring 225’s?

S-Bahn · 29 Dec 2019

The Fox 4846 said:
Could XC use the 125 Power Cars with Mark 4 carridges from the retiring 225’s?

I understand from another thread that the two are incompatible and can't be economically modified to make them compatible.

TFW are will however be using Mk4's and the DVT with Class 67's next year.

greatvoyager · 29 Dec 2019

Mordac said:
No one's going to be ordering new sliding door HSTs after the debacle with the ScotRail order.

Also, it took CrossCountry a long time to get 5 sets done, so clearly it isn't a quick job.

Purple Orange · 29 Dec 2019

The Fox 4846 said:
The ideal scenario would be an order of 23x802 to replace all trains on the Edinburgh to Plymouth route which in turn would release the HST’ and would enable all 38 Voyager 4-Car Units to become 19 8-car Voyager Units which would leave XC with:
19 x 4+4 Voyagers
23 x 7 802(IET)
20 x 5 Voyagers (221)

Unfortunately this probably won’t happen but the DfT could instead order around half the number of units (14) for the NEW-RDG service which would allow other services to have an additional 4-car unit from New St to Bristol/Oxford/Manchester/Leeds.

Unfortunately due to Depot arrangements the new IET’s would have to operate a service wholly in order for PR to also be effective. As a result these are the only two scenarios to better the franchise and neither look likely.

Of course their are other temporary options such as sourcing HST’s for EDB-PLY with the current withdrawal of 125’s or leasing the 180’s from Hull Trains although both are not great due to reliability issues that would occur with both.

Hopefully these issues can be sorted with the new franchise operator with backing from the DfT

Why would procuring new fleet for just Edinburgh-Plymouth be the ideal solution? Surely all fleet would need replacing and continuing to allocate diesel units to the Manchester-Birmingham/Cov route is going to be increasingly considered to be a gross local pollutant, when there is a cleaner energy source sat a few feet above the train.

Quite frankly, it disgusts me that diesel fumes are spewed in to the air when there are overhead wires available to use, which could be utilised if resources were allocated to it.

ian959 · 29 Dec 2019

Surely the best way of approaching the XC franchise/division (since franchising might be going the way of the dodo) would be to replace the current Voyagers with 9 car Class 802s on a 1 for 1.5 basis, ordering the 802s now so that they are ready for when the XC franchise is up for renewal. That massively improves capacity, potentially improves the quality of services (buffet facilities for instance), reduces "diesels under the wires" issues on the Manchester-Birmingham route and removes the issues of lack of walk through ability on 4 + 4 Voyagers, which does itself create issues of overcrowding in some cars. Then as Voyagers are replaced with 802s, put them through deep refurbishment and at the same time convert them all to 6 car units and use them to replace the 170s, thus increasing capacity on the "lesser" routes, and to cover new routes/reinstated routes. Excess cab units could either be converted to ordinary carriages, high speed 2 car freight units or simply scrapped. Pricey yes but needed for sure. Unfortunately, DfT is going to have to suck it up and spend the money.

greatvoyager · 29 Dec 2019

ian959 said:
Surely the best way of approaching the XC franchise/division (since franchising might be going the way of the dodo) would be to replace the current Voyagers with 9 car Class 802s on a 1 for 1.5 basis, ordering the 802s now so that they are ready for when the XC franchise is up for renewal. That massively improves capacity, potentially improves the quality of services (buffet facilities for instance), reduces "diesels under the wires" issues on the Manchester-Birmingham route and removes the issues of lack of walk through ability on 4 + 4 Voyagers, which does itself create issues of overcrowding in some cars. Then as Voyagers are replaced with 802s, put them through deep refurbishment and at the same time convert them all to 6 car units and use them to replace the 170s, thus increasing capacity on the "lesser" routes, and to cover new routes/reinstated routes. Excess cab units could either be converted to ordinary carriages, high speed 2 car freight units or simply scrapped. Pricey yes but needed for sure. Unfortunately, DfT is going to have to suck it up and spend the money.

Also, whoevers running the franchise will have to cough up the money for other things such as crew training and potentially higher leasing costs.

Purple Orange · 29 Dec 2019

greatvoyager said:
Also, whoevers running the franchise will have to cough up the money for other things such as crew training and potentially higher leasing costs.

Very true, but any company worth its salt would do this. We would not accept the NHS scrimping on staff training, same with the airline industry, our educators, and any qualified professional for that matter needs to keep up their professional competence. The rail industry must do the same - I hope it does at least.

Energy · 29 Dec 2019

Why would they order stock at the end of a franchise?

greatvoyager · 29 Dec 2019

Energy said:
Why would they order stock at the end of a franchise?

Exactly... Until a proper franchise is awarded, I cant see stock being ordered.

greatvoyager · 29 Dec 2019

I think if they do refurbish a unit, they should do 1 unit, test it on the public and see if it works. Maybe that way they will find a way to make everyone happy.

hooverboy · 29 Dec 2019

greatvoyager said:
Also, whoevers running the franchise will have to cough up the money for other things such as crew training and potentially higher leasing costs.

Higher leasing costs
staff training
50% more per vehicle track access charges
potential delays with route clearance

I think the next operator will run as close to "safety first" as possible.
They'll want a big expansion in capacity alright, but will not necessarily be prepared to risk /pay over the odds for the privilege.

22x are pretty much tried and tested,and I could see the new operator maybe asking for voyager bogie/electronics replacements as part of a mid life refurb (maybe so as to standardise the sets to meridian-type to reduce running costs), but that would be about it.

hooverboy · 29 Dec 2019

greatvoyager said:
I think if they do refurbish a unit, they should do 1 unit, test it on the public and see if it works. Maybe that way they will find a way to make everyone happy.

lol!

opinions are like @rseholes.
everybody has one,and some of them stink!

Energy · 29 Dec 2019

Virgin in their open access thing say they will use 221s, will they get a refurb?

greatvoyager · 29 Dec 2019

hooverboy said:
Higher leasing costs
staff training
50% more per vehicle track access charges
potential delays with route clearance

I think the next operator will run as close to "safety first" as possible.
They'll want a big expansion in capacity alright, but will not necessarily be prepared to risk /pay over the odds for the privilege.

22x are pretty much tried and tested,and I could see the new operator maybe asking for voyager bogie/electronics replacements as part of a mid life refurb (maybe so as to standardise the sets to meridian-type to reduce running costs), but that would be about it.

I'd agree with that. Considering all 22x units will be surplus, they may as well take them on, give them a refurbishment and increase capacity.

greatvoyager · 29 Dec 2019

Energy said:
Virgin in their open access thing say they will use 221s, will they get a refurb?

Depends on whether they will be allowed to run a diesel unit under a completely electrified line. If they come to XC, then they should be refurbished to make their interior common with the rest of the 220/221s.

hooverboy · 29 Dec 2019

greatvoyager said:
Depends on whether they will be allowed to run a diesel unit under a completely electrified line. If they come to XC, then they should be refurbished to make their interior common with the rest of the 220/221s.

I'd say probably depends on the extent of the refurb.

they might take meridians on, and then ask for the existing voyagers to have the bogie refits and electronics made compatible.
that would potentially save 15% on cl220 and 25% on on cl 221 access charges.
If the voyagers were due major overhaul anyway it would be a fairly wise investment.

th XC routes are a mix anyway, predominantly diesel, so I wouldn't see much of a problem with the additional 22x being taken on.
they do need to be made inter-operable though.

greatvoyager · 29 Dec 2019

hooverboy said:
I'd say probably depends on the extent of the refurb.

they might take meridians on, and then ask for the existing voyagers to have the bogie refits and electronics made compatible.
that would potentially save 15% on cl220 and 25% on on cl 221 access charges.
If the voyagers were due major overhaul anyway it would be a fairly wise investment.

th XC routes are a mix anyway, predominantly diesel, so I wouldn't see much of a problem with the additional 22x being taken on.
they do need to be made inter-operable though.

I used to agree with the inter-operability, and have mentioned it in other threads, but considering just how different the 222s are from the 221s, even if they get refurbished, their build is different. They have smaller first class area with a larger kitchen/galley which means 4 windows instead of 5 as you see on the 220/221. The carriages have extra areas for seats and there are less accessible toilets in 222s.
It won't be as easy to say on a seating plan Coach A/G is set up with the same layout (as XC currently do on the Voyager seating plan), because they can't fit them out the same.
In any event, I think it would be easy enough without them being inter-operable with 220/221s.

bb21 · 31 Dec 2019

Off-topic discussion on costs comparison are in a new thread here.

Please remember the topic of this thread and try and stay on topic.

w1bbl3 · 31 Dec 2019

Personally I can see the entire 22x fleet ending up with XC with a minor interior refresh to match the HST's and the fleet intended to see life into early 2030's then replacement probably by a new train type or a further evolution of the 80x family. EMR will I suspect place a follow on order for a few more 804's to cover growth post 2022.

S-Bahn said:
I don't know enough about the Scot-rail issues to comment, but the GWR HST's have been an absolute godsend for relieving overcrowding on Cardiff-Bristol and the SW.

The HST coach conversions haven't been quick and I'd expect any additional order placed now would not deliver coaches ahead of WC Voyagers becoming available or for that matter much ahead of new build stock delivery, the window for additional conversions has IMHO closed. Had wabtec managed to get all coaches converted on schedule I suspect that follow on lengthening orders could have come from Scotrail and maybe GWR. Now realistically it's going more a question of when Scotrail, GWR and XC look to replace the HST conversions with something newer or new.

What Scotrail / Transport Scotland decide to do about the HST's both in terms of the far slower than expected delivery and the ongoing reliability problems will I suspect have a major bearing on the future XC fleet. Politically Transport Scotland choosing further cascaded stock from English regions to replace the unreliable HST's maybe unacceptable when other English TOC's have replaced fleets with new builds.

hooverboy · 31 Dec 2019

w1bbl3 said:
Personally I can see the entire 22x fleet ending up with XC with a minor interior refresh to match the HST's and the fleet intended to see life into early 2030's then replacement probably by a new train type or a further evolution of the 80x family. EMR will I suspect place a follow on order for a few more 804's to cover growth post 2022.

I think that's logical, but I'm not so sure on the entire 22x going to XC.

maybe some will end up at chiltern.
(actually 180's would make more sense there if GC would do a swap.The fleet size is just about right for chiltern and Alstom already have a maintainance facility at oxley which is just north of birmingham,10 miles or so away from moor street with an easy connection.)

Mogz · 31 Dec 2019

These units have so much potential. They’re reliable and have large windows, but they are let down by being far too short and having awful “pack ‘em in” interiors.

The seats aren’t actually that bad provided you’re in one of the few to have decent leg-room.

A 9 coach unit with IET levels of leg-room, a restored buffet and far more tables in standard, with seats aligning to the windows could actually be quite a pleasant travelling experience. The Virgin refurbishment with one coach of nearly all tables in standard shows what they could be like.

greatvoyager · 31 Dec 2019

Mogz said:
These units have so much potential. They’re reliable and have large windows, but they are let down by being far too short and having awful “pack ‘em in” interiors.

The seats aren’t actually that bad provided you’re in one of the few to have decent leg-room.

A 9 coach unit with IET levels of leg-room, a restored buffet and far more tables in standard, with seats aligning to the windows could actually be quite a pleasant travelling experience. The Virgin refurbishment with one coach of nearly all tables in standard shows what they could be like.

I agree, the only problem is that if they were to refurbish them like the Virgin coach, it would decrease capacity, which is the area that lets 22x units down the most.

greatvoyager · 31 Dec 2019

I hope that they can finally get to the bottom of many if the problems during a potential refurbishment.

Geoff DC · 31 Dec 2019

The sad thing about our railways now is that Voyagers are now seen as more comfortable than an IET

SWRtrain_fan · 1 Jan 2020

Geoff DC said:
The sad thing about our railways now is that Voyagers are now seen as more comfortable than an IET

Personally I find IETs more comfortable. Their seats are firm, but they are very well ergonomically designed and the legroom is very generous.

CrossCountry Voyagers: No interior decor change in 12 years and counting

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