It's completely opinion isn't it though. I can't say I find the jaulty acceleration of the 72 stock comfortable, or the more cramped,dimmer feeling of them although I'm not old enough to know what they were like when new. The brightly lit 09 stock with proper dividers between seats and smooth, consistently rapid acceleration is much nicer, alongside the better standing provision. As much as the 72 interior would generally be considered dated in its colour choices, others will prefer it; very opinion-based.
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Why can’t modern rolling stock be as spacious and comfortable as Mk 1 coaches?
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43096
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Mark 1 suburban stock (the likes of the VEPs) was utterly appalling and outdated before they were built thanks to the Southern's inability to grasp any sort of modern thinking. Their replacement by the various Junipers, Desiros and Electrostars represented the same step-change in quality for SR passengers that the Mark 3 had for Inter-City passengers 25 years before.
xotGD
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The ridiculous fixed armrests to make it difficult getting in and out of the seats, the constant squeaking from the corridor connections and the stench of the brakes. Yes, Mark 3s were truly a step change from Mark 2 air con stock.
bramling
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The seat dividers on the 72 stock were removed due to vandalism, something which is much less of a problem on the Victoria Line, indeed the similar 67 stock retained theirs to the end.
It’s also worth remembering that the 09 stock is built to slightly more generous dimensions than any other Tube stock, allowing it to be more spacious. The brown colour scheme on the 72 stock also relates to the Bakerloo Line.
43096
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Constant? Not a squeak from the last Mark 3 I was on. Mark 2 aircons: noisy brakes, aircon that was more "con" than "on", no air suspension and 20% slower than a Mark 3.
WesternLancer
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Good point ref VEPs. I had inner suburban stock in mind in my comment (though I recall thinking PEP suburban units being a revolutionary step change for the southern, at the time). Outer SR mainline stock (eg CIGs BIGs REPs and Kent Coast stuff) I always found very nice - as mentioned above by others.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Apart from the physical seats (which is a matter of opinion), does the Class 397 not tick that box? Mostly tables, decent spacing, window alignment good.
hexagon789
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It could well be the jointed track, but you don't feel crossings in a Mk3 whereas you feel the joints in a Mk1
hexagon789
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I never had issue with Mk4 ride in GNER days, but I will concede it's poorer currently. A Mk3 is superior in terms of ride, internally though I think Mk4s are generally nicer presently
hexagon789
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Quite possible, my understanding is that 40s struggled to achieve their rated 90mph on level track while 45s and 46s could outperform 47s if driven well - 100mph being perfectly feasible. After all I've seen a log of a 47/7 manage 109mph on a E&G shuttle in the 1980s, and they are similarly powerful locos - 2500hp (Cl. 46) vs 2580hp (Cl. 46)
High Dyke
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Probably better than a modern Azuma set. They don't give a good ride IMO. However, how much is that actually down to the different seating style? As an aside I find a Mk3 HST, on the Midland Main Line, gives a rougher ride than a Meridian.
I used to blast around the Southern quite happily on them. I remember when Connex replaced the VEPs on the Horsham line with 319s. The latter found bumps in the track I never knew existed.
My last regular MK1 ride was a weekly commute from Bristol to catch the Southampton/Cowes Ferry in 80/81.
Mainly 33 hauled compartment stock & I remember them as very comfortable
A lot of the stock was re-upholstered with the armrests sown in - but it didn't take long for the regulars to unpick them and make them even more comfortable.
I've been travelling by train since around the mid-50s & have travelled on some superbly comfortable stock up until & including MK3 HSTs - a GWR IET is light-years away from anything in the comfort stakes even in 1st Class
Mainly 33 hauled compartment stock & I remember them as very comfortable
A lot of the stock was re-upholstered with the armrests sown in - but it didn't take long for the regulars to unpick them and make them even more comfortable.
I've been travelling by train since around the mid-50s & have travelled on some superbly comfortable stock up until & including MK3 HSTs - a GWR IET is light-years away from anything in the comfort stakes even in 1st Class
I find modern train interiors far too bright. It started with the Great Western HST refurbs. I also find car headlights far too bright these days.
xotGD
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WesternLancer
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I have found Mk3 HSTs on MML rougher riding than LNER Mk 3HSTs on ECML when on recent trips on the HST LNER final weeks. I wonder how those LNER HSTs will perform when they mover over to MML ride wise.
High Dyke
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Hmm, it will be an interesting comparison.
hexagon789
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Dampers? The originals for the Mk3s are no longer manufactured.
hexagon789
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I've generally found the T-3 bogies (and similar versions) give quite high levels of ride comfort. C
paul1609
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In the early 1980s Portsmouth FC (my team) in conjunction with BR used to run football specials to many places up north. The stock used to be a set of MK1 coaches that were during the week used on the Portsmouth to Cardiff service. These were to say the least somewhat in need of refurbishment. Haulage was normally a 33 or two from Portsmouth until you got to either north of London or Bescot Yard in Birmingham when the appropriate regions loco wouldtake charge. The ride up to about 70 mph was okay but beyond that would be horrendous. I remember one particular trip to Carlisle where a class 86 was used was a real white knuckle ride the bogies would sway sideways violently. As all the batteries on the sets were knackered the lights normally went out when speed dropped below 25 mph by the end of the day. Happy days
Not a lot of love going on for the Mk.2. I thought the air-conditioned stock - the Mk.2F in particular, was excellent. Still remember my last trip on one, a VXC service from Reading to Manchester in around 2001/2002. Although I like the Mk.3 they're not as good as a decent Mk.2 in my book. Have always been underwhelmed by the Mk.4s.
Speed43125
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While, as has been said, many intercity trains today are in fact of similar length. Train lengths on regional routes have decreased, for example many scottish services went from 47 + mk2s.(dbso) to 2 car 158s, similarly, on introduction, HSTs were 7-8 carriages, compared to the prior trains of up to 16. (they were nicknamed 'half-trains' by enthusiasts of the day due to their short length.)
The thinking here was, to attract more people to the railways services would run more frequently, but be shorter. So as an example what may have been a once daily XC service would be upgraded to many more frequencies with less capacity. Of course, the issue was, that worked, and then the short trains have become completely unsuitable for the increasing passenger numbers (check Scotrail HST thread for peoples opinion if a 2 car 158 is subbed in for a HML service now!)
coradiafan2000
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By the time I was born I think most if not all the mark 1s had left mainline duties, so my only experience of them is on heritage railways.
They have amazingly comfortable seats compared to modern stock, although it seems like all new trains are less comfortable than their predecessors. I do think they ride quite poorly though, no where near as smooth as a mark 3.
And that's the ride at preserved line speeds (no quicker than about 40mph). I've no clue what it's like at higher speeds. The fastest I will have done on them is about 70 when I was on a rail tour hauled by Leander, however I was only 8 and so remember very little of it.
I'd take the mark 3s and 4s over them, as unlike many others who may be reading this, it's those that I have nostalgia for, whereas I have no attachment at all to the mark 1s (or the mark 2s, which I have even less experience of).
They have amazingly comfortable seats compared to modern stock, although it seems like all new trains are less comfortable than their predecessors. I do think they ride quite poorly though, no where near as smooth as a mark 3.
And that's the ride at preserved line speeds (no quicker than about 40mph). I've no clue what it's like at higher speeds. The fastest I will have done on them is about 70 when I was on a rail tour hauled by Leander, however I was only 8 and so remember very little of it.
I'd take the mark 3s and 4s over them, as unlike many others who may be reading this, it's those that I have nostalgia for, whereas I have no attachment at all to the mark 1s (or the mark 2s, which I have even less experience of).
Aictos
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Yet some here think that those same type seats on the EMR HSTs are better then the Mallard type seating that GWR, XC and LNER have....
WesternLancer
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well, I think they are in terms of seat layout, but not so much in terms or say...arm rest design!
I wonder what the design process was when the original HST seats were designed, as they were of course obviously awkward from day one. Does anyone know how that seat design emerged? And at the start they had more tables, which adds to the difficulty of getting in and out of one.
It's reassuring to hear the usual bluster and nonsense from the anti-mk1 brigade.
This is very much my experience of mk1 stock in the late 1980's and 90's on the Southern. NSE had done an extensive refurbishment programme which helped in this respect, but other than the EPB's, which suffered some vandalism on account of the areas they served, things were generally tidy and well maintained. This includes DEMU's which generally received the NSE treatment later than the electric units.
This is very much my experience of mk1 stock in the late 1980's and 90's on the Southern. NSE had done an extensive refurbishment programme which helped in this respect, but other than the EPB's, which suffered some vandalism on account of the areas they served, things were generally tidy and well maintained. This includes DEMU's which generally received the NSE treatment later than the electric units.
Aictos
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What bluster? The Mk1s with their interior layouts eg compartments are totally unsuitable for the modern railway as trains would be overcrowded.
The best place for Mk1s are on a heritage line trundling along at a sedate 25mph.
Finally not everybody insists on wearing rose tinted specs and seeing it only their way as is the case for those who are stuck in the past.
The best place for Mk1s are on a heritage line trundling along at a sedate 25mph.
Finally not everybody insists on wearing rose tinted specs and seeing it only their way as is the case for those who are stuck in the past.
WesternLancer
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Yes, I recall being very impressed with the 'heavy' refurbs of the CEP and BEP Mk1 units (and I think Clacton EMUs also got this) - hopper windows, brand new formica panels, new seats etc when they appeared - pic here
http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/class411_5.html
tho I think this was also driven by the complete re-build they needed to remove asbestos, but being a bit disappointed when the CIG refurb programme was more just heavy cleaning and re-upholstery - yet they benefited enormously from that. In time, when I became more interested in interior carriage design, I came to appreciate the retention of the older formica paneling etc, with it's more muted quality of design. As mentioned above though, I did find VEPs a strange design choice - one heck of a lot of doors to maintain!
As you say DMUs were kept smart too - though the vandalism problem is illustrated in one of the pics here
http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/class207_4.html
It was really in Connex days that things started to get bad pretty fast - they must have decided that the way to run the franchise with reduced costs was a massive reduction in carriage cleaning and maintenance. It was depressing how bad they got and how quickly that happened. A real indictment of privatisation were one needed. I think SWT did a better job with the Mk1 stock they were responsible for.
WesternLancer
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But most mark 1 stock you came across, esp by the mid 1970s was not compartment stock (unless it was on some lines?) - however, obviously by then they were getting 'old fashioned'.
But I think the jist of the OP's post was why can not modern stock have some of the basics of the design advantages from that era - window alignment, comfy seats, leg room etc - which of course it could. Combine best of the past with best of the present.
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