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Do GWR 800/802s decouple in service and should sets be extended to 9 cars?

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Clarence Yard

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I think there has been several days pre Xmas when there have been no issues, unless the GWR control log has been missing them out, which I don’t believe.

I can’t see why Plymouth is any different to other GWR locations, which collectively should have more daily coupling action.
 
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jimm

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They are required to operate some services but they may choose to do the bare minimum, an example of this is how Barlaston station has not had a train stop there since pause for dramatic effect 2004 with a bus route being the official rail replacement bus as rail tickets are accepted on it. Another example is the Chiltern 'ghost train' which used to run from Paddington once per day and Northern who ran a service from Stockport to Stalybridge one way, once per week. Operators can favour routes by providing the minimal service required on the ones which don't make money.

So these are the best examples you can come up with, are they?

As well as finding out about the service level commitment - not something the TOCs can just wriggle out of delivering if they feel like it - perhaps you ought to go away and read about so-called 'Parliamentary' trains, which are operated to avoid going through the complicated and costly official procedures needed to close stations or routes to passengers - this is being done with full approval from the Department for Transport, and the Stockport to Stalybridge train is still running.

The Chiltern service to Paddington ran to ensure that the company's drivers knew the route into Paddington so they could work diverted trains on days when Marylebone was shut for engineering work and had the handy side-effect of avoiding the need to go through the closure to passenger trains procedure for the connecting line. This service has stopped running because the route has been severed to allow work for HS2 to take place.
 

Energy

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So these are the best examples you can come up with, are they?
I just mentioned some fairly well known parliamentary trains, does it matter the example if it is still relevant?
As well as finding out about the service level commitment - not something the TOCs can just wriggle out of delivering if they feel like it - perhaps you ought to go away and read about so-called 'Parliamentary' trains, which are operated to avoid going through the complicated and costly official procedures needed to close stations or routes to passengers - this is being done with full approval from the Department for Transport, and the Stockport to Stalybridge train is still running.
I already knew about parliamentary trains, I called them the bare minimum because that is what they are, the bare minimum so the operator wouldn't need to go through the costly ordeal of closing a line. I used them as an extreme case of operators favouring routes which make the most money, of course a route which has higher demand and therefore makes more money is going to get favoured.
The Chiltern service to Paddington ran to ensure that the company's drivers knew the route into Paddington so they could work diverted trains on days when Marylebone was shut for engineering work and had the handy side-effect of avoiding the need to go through the closure to passenger trains procedure for the connecting line. This service has stopped running because the route has been severed to allow work for HS2 to take place.
I used Chiltern as an example because it is a fairly well known one although it does have other purposes than the contractual obligation, as you pointed out.
 

mmh

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Someone will have to explain to me what Chiltern running trains into Paddington or not has anything to do with whether or not GWR should be splitting trains in Plymouth or Swansea.
 

Energy

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Someone will have to explain to me what Chiltern running trains into Paddington or not has anything to do with whether or not GWR should be splitting trains in Plymouth or Swansea.
It's got very sidetracked about how operators may or may not favour the routes which make the most money
 

jimm

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I just mentioned some fairly well known parliamentary trains, does it matter the example if it is still relevant?

I already knew about parliamentary trains, I called them the bare minimum because that is what they are, the bare minimum so the operator wouldn't need to go through the costly ordeal of closing a line. I used them as an extreme case of operators favouring routes which make the most money, of course a route which has higher demand and therefore makes more money is going to get favoured.

I used Chiltern as an example because it is a fairly well known one although it does have other purposes than the contractual obligation, as you pointed out.

So to sum up, you tried to make something out of nothing in order to try to support a ridiculous claim you had made, but can find no proof for.

The regular service between Stockport and Staybridge was axed not because of anything to do with making money, but because the diversion of TransPennine services into Manchester Piccadilly put paid to the main job of the shuttle trains - to provide a link for passengers between the TransPennine route, which until then all had all gone into Victoria, and services between Manchester, Stoke and Birmingham.

It's got very sidetracked about how operators may or may not favour the routes which make the most money

And whose fault is that?
 

Energy

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The regular service between Stockport and Staybridge was axed not because of anything to do with making money
I didn't say it was axed, I said they are providing minimal so they didn't need it close the route.

I could argue that the DfT favour some routes over others by giving some higher service level commitments. It depends on your definition of favouring, I would argue that it is still favouring but justified even if you would say it is favouring because there is higher demand.

Can we just agree that whether they favour or not depends of the person's definition of favouring?
 

Master29

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The only debate that seems to be more divisive than this is brexit.
Who'd have thought. It was once soaps. Then Brexit and now 5 and 9 car IET's regarding buffets, splitting and gold plated routes (my copywrite). Shows we still care about our railways. Some of us anyway.
 

jimm

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I didn't say it was axed, I said they are providing minimal so they didn't need it close the route.

I could argue that the DfT favour some routes over others by giving some higher service level commitments. It depends on your definition of favouring, I would argue that it is still favouring but justified even if you would say it is favouring because there is higher demand.

Can we just agree that whether they favour or not depends of the person's definition of favouring?

No - because not at any point have you shown that the DfT, GWR, or anyone else is 'favouring' any particular route in any way, shape or form. No matter how many times people write copyrighted baseless claims about gold-plating or anything else.

Clarence Yard - someone with inside knowledge - has explained over and over how the current shape of services in Cornwall was arrived at. As the result of a detailed and comprehensive assessment of passenger numbers and travel patterns, options for changes to services and what they would cost, and what provides the most benefits at an affordable price.

Not because someone in an office at GWR or the DfT 'favours' the Cotswold Line, or Bristol, or South Wales, or Cheltenham over the West Country or Cornwall.

And should any lengthening of GW IETs take place in the future, there are plenty of places such trains are more likely to be put to work than in Cornwall.
 

coppercapped

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Who'd have thought. It was once soaps. Then Brexit and now 5 and 9 car IET's regarding buffets, splitting and gold plated routes (my copywrite). Shows we still care about our railways. Some of us anyway.
Nah!

It's actually a variant of the 'How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?' debate...

...Happy New Year!
 

irish_rail

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And should any lengthening of GW IETs take place in the future, there are plenty of places such trains are more likely to be put to work than in Cornwall.
Keep dreaming jimm. IF any lengthening takes place it will be to sort out the problems on the west country route and create some longer sets , be they 9 or 7 or 8. Your beloved Cotswold line won't be going back to having 9 car trains all day long carrying round fresh air ,when a 5 car will comfortably do.
 
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Keep dreaming jimm. IF any lengthening takes place it will be to sort out the problems on the west country route and create some longer sets , be they 9 or 7 or 8. Your beloved Cotswold line won't be going back to having 9 car trains all day long carrying round fresh air ,when a 5 car will comfortably do.

Here we go again...

Not that I'm agreeing or disagreeing with either of you, but I feel we've heard both sides of the argument already.
 

Energy

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This whole argument has sprung up because of the DfTs incompetence, out of interest, does anyone know what GWR management wanted the IETs to be? I remember someone said that some of them wanted them all to be 9 cars, which would make sense.
 

JonathanH

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This whole argument has sprung up because of the DfTs incompetence, out of interest, does anyone know what GWR management wanted the IETs to be? I remember someone said that some of them wanted them all to be 9 cars, which would make sense.

It isn't DfT incompetence (although it has been indicated that the size of the 800 fleet was not well specified)

If you read this thread (and others) it has been made very clear that the financials, practicalities and demand don't add up for an all 9-car fleet, regardless of who is making the decision.

It could well have been four and five coach Meridians running to Cornwall by now if GWR had not done the deal for the 802 fleet.
 

Energy

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If you read this thread (and others) it has been made very clear that the financials, practicalities and demand don't add up for an all 9-car fleet, regardless of who is making the decision.
Indeed, I would still argue there are too many 5 cars though.
 

Energy

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It could well have been four and five coach Meridians running to Cornwall by now if GWR had not done the deal for the 802 fleet.
I do like the meridians but aren't they meant to be rather expensive to run in comparison to other high speed trains?
 

JonathanH

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I do like the meridians but aren't they meant to be rather expensive to run in comparison to other high speed trains?

Maybe that is part of the reason why GWR managed to procure a fleet of 802s for the West Country services.
 

coppercapped

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I do like the meridians but aren't they meant to be rather expensive to run in comparison to other high speed trains?
Are they? As far as I am aware nothing to this end has been published in the public domain by an authoritative source.
 

Energy

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Are they? As far as I am aware nothing to this end has been published in the public domain by an authoritative source.
I saw on another thread that a staff member said they were, not a too reliable source though.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Are they? As far as I am aware nothing to this end has been published in the public domain by an authoritative source.
They have the same powerplant as the Voyagers and 185s, which are notoriously thirsty. Those engines are 15-20 years older than the IEP generator engines and so are naturally going to be less efficient.
 

Energy

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I don't think the problem is that there ARE five coach IETs. I just think people take issue with where they sometimes go.
And there are so many 5 cars, the DfT ordered too many 5 cars and not enough 9 cars although their order was based on more splits.
 
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And there are so many 5 cars, the DfT ordered too many 5 cars and not enough 9 cars although their order was based on more splits.

That I agree with. Call me old fashioned but the fact that places like Cardiff, Bristol, Plymouth, Oxford, Worcester etc get five coach trains to London is ludicrous.
 

The Ham

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No it isn’t. It’s there already! It is just that Hitachi do not choose to do certain work there, preferring it done at their own major locations. They also prefer not to stable any (maintenance) spare stock there, which is something I would try and change.

Would it be something which could make sense of the fleet were to enlarge further.

For instance if, as part of the next franchise, "GWR" were to order extra coaches to lengthen some/all off the 5 coach 502's to be 9 coaches. This would likely mean that extra maintenance space would be required.

Now given that to replace the Castle Fleet would require 32 coaches (8 x 5 coach units lengthened to 9 coaches), so as to allow 5 coach units to replace them.

To cater for each extra diagrams to be 9 coaches rather than 5 would require a further 4 coaches. Chances are there's a further 8 diagrams which would justify 9 coaches (which would then in turn allow a further 8 services to move over to be 10 coach services).

16 diagrams would probably be enough to allow every Cornish service to be 9 coaches whilst allowing several other diagrams to also be lengthened (as an example Paddington to Worcester could see 6 end to end services done for one diagram by it taking 5 hours for a round trip, and so over 15 hours one set could make 3 round trips).
 

JonathanH

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That I agree with. Call me old fashioned but the fact that places like Cardiff, Bristol, Plymouth, Oxford, Worcester etc get five coach trains to London is ludicrous.

Why? Again, post a list of services where GWR are scheduling 5 car trains that are insufficient for the numbers travelling to any of the destinations you have listed.

You can't just run 9-car trains to places because they present a better image. That is just wasteful.

You do realise that train carriages are incredibly expensive to make and operate?

Do you object to LNER running 5-car IETs to Lincoln?
 
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