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Amsterdam Eurostar

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JonasB

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Or trains that use the long tunnels under the Alps? There's not really any logic to it at all - anyone who wants to bring a bomb onto a train will always be able to find an easier target such as a much more crowded underground Metro service.

However some other services have had baggage screening, including high speed in Spain and some Thalys services. I haven't used them but I believe the screening is less thorough than Eurostar and may not happen 100% of the time.

My guess: The terrorist threat was considered a lot higher in the UK than in France or Spain when the tunnel was built. There were quite a lot of IRA attacks in England in the early 90's and the people in charge where probably worried that IRA would consider the tunnel a great target.
 
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ainsworth74

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My guess: The terrorist threat was considered a lot higher in the UK than in France or Spain when the tunnel was built. There were quite a lot of IRA attacks in England in the early 90's and the people in charge where probably worried that IRA would consider the tunnel a great target.

Personally I suspect that that's probably a factor. And whilst the IRA threat has gone away for the most part it's certainly be replaced by new threats. But even if it hadn't who wants to be the person whose name is on the instruction to get rid of the security? Because what if there then is an attack...

I think we're now permantely stuck with the security. It'd be nice to get rid of the immigration side of things but that seems further away then ever currently.
 

paul1609

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Personally I suspect that that's probably a factor. And whilst the IRA threat has gone away for the most part it's certainly be replaced by new threats. But even if it hadn't who wants to be the person whose name is on the instruction to get rid of the security? Because what if there then is an attack...

I think we're now permantely stuck with the security. It'd be nice to get rid of the immigration side of things but that seems further away then ever currently.
Sadly if you lived on the routes between London and the Channel Ports and could actually see what was going on rather than whats reported on the BBC you'd realise how the situation is continuing to deteriorate.
 

Cloud Strife

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UK Border Force blanket refuses to do on-train checks due to their hysterical insistence on scanning in every passport/ID card and checking it against the warnings index, which (I am told) they can only do over a fixed wired connection.

Unbelievable. It's especially ridiculous when you consider that so many border checks are performed in the EU through handheld computers operating over a wireless connection. Even places where physical infrastructure exists (for example, in Przemyśl on the PL/UA border), the Polish border guards simply carry out the checks on the train as it's quicker and easier, even on departure from Przemyśl where they could be reasonably expected to use the physical border controls there (as there's a separate international station that's now no longer used).
 

radamfi

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When die that change and why?

Not long after the service started. I think I only ever got checked on the train the first time I used it, between London and Brussels in 1995. If I recall, the main problem was the cost of having border staff on the train for a long time.
 

Wychwood93

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I never had a problem with that - seemed sort of sensible - luggage scanned on the way in, both ways. I do not recall when the change to current practice started. Someone out there knows!
 

DavidGrain

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My first trip on Eurostar was to Paris in 1998. Passports were checked by French Police on the way out but at Gare de Nord on the return. I travelled to Brussels the following year. I don't remember when we were checked on that outward trip but possibly on the train and in Brussels on the return. On both those trips British police were on the trains (I think BTP) but I don't know why as they had no responsibility for passport checks.

I got stopped by the same Customs officer on return to Waterloo on both these trips.
 

jon0844

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Unbelievable. It's especially ridiculous when you consider that so many border checks are performed in the EU through handheld computers operating over a wireless connection. Even places where physical infrastructure exists (for example, in Przemyśl on the PL/UA border), the Polish border guards simply carry out the checks on the train as it's quicker and easier, even on departure from Przemyśl where they could be reasonably expected to use the physical border controls there (as there's a separate international station that's now no longer used).

When they scan your passport at St Pancras they're using a mobile phone with a reader. It may well be using Wi-Fi, but surely could use a mobile data connection?
 

island

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When they scan your passport at St Pancras they're using a mobile phone with a reader. It may well be using Wi-Fi, but surely could use a mobile data connection?
That’s not UK Border Force, it is Mitie acting on behalf of Eurostar.
 

jon0844

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That’s not UK Border Force, it is Mitie acting on behalf of Eurostar.

So they're just collecting the data like when you enter in advance for flying?

Nevertheless, UK Border could use mobile data to access a network.
 

RT4038

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When die that change and why?

1. The UK Government does not want anyone without the correct authorisation to enter the country to arrive in the UK. It is often not possible to deport someone back to their own country (own country refuse to accept/person disposes of passport etc), or is very expensive. Doesn't want people to be claiming asylum either. UK government fines any operator who brings such passenger to UK and is liable for costs also. Therefore E* do not want to be bringing such passengers, and check is required before boarding train. [Alternatively they could check on board and eject such passengers at Calais, but French Authorities are unlikely to co-operate with that!]. Airlines and Shipping companies have to comply with same rules, and do so when passengers check in.
2. The sheer cost of checking on board, with each team of Borderforce officials only able to check one inbound trains per shift (without additional stops inserted!). A simple calculation of the number required, versus the number at static departure locations, makes this pretty obvious.

E* already have a more favourable dispensation than the airlines and shipping companies, who have to check passports/visas at check in and then their passengers have to queue through immigration on arrival. E* passengers are cleared before departure and pretty much walk away immediately on arrival. However the cost of this is no doubt reflected in the price of E* tickets.
 

tasky

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Or trains that use the long tunnels under the Alps? There's not really any logic to it at all - anyone who wants to bring a bomb onto a train will always be able to find an easier target such as a much more crowded underground Metro service.

However some other services have had baggage screening, including high speed in Spain and some Thalys services. I haven't used them but I believe the screening is less thorough than Eurostar and may not happen 100% of the time.

There is sometimes spot screening for TGVs, ICEs and other trains at Brussels Midi on the high-speed platforms, but they mostly just wave you through and only tell certain people to go for checks. I think they are particularly interested in large baggage.

The Russian Sapsan is rather like the Eurostar in that it has full screening and a waiting area, if I remember correctly.

Also everything in China has baggage screening - you even have to put your bag through an X-ray and go through a detector arch to get on the Beijing Metro! This is totally pointless - they obviously can't do a very thorough job because otherwise there would be huge queues, and you're mostly just waved through.
 

citycat

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Yes, two - one in each half set, at the nearest point in the accommodation to the coupling between the two units.

When I was a train guard for GNER, I used to work on the 373 NoL White Rose sets to Leeds and back.

My train office was the one where detainees would’ve been held as there were secure connections in the compartment walls where handcuffs would have been connected to.

I was forever losing track of where my office was. I think there were four on a set and I was always having to search for the compartment that had my bag in it. Very frustrating at times.
 

tasky

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I can think of no other rail service that provides international travel but not domestic journeys in the countries it passes through

Thalys is one example - even though it stops at both Brussels and Antwerp you actually cannot buy a Thalys ticket between the two stops – similar to Eurostar and London–Ashford. On the French side it goes non-stop from Paris to Brussels. But you're right of course, it is very unusual. (It's also worth remembering how unusual international trains are in the grand scheme of things - only in Europe does high-speed rail cross international borders)
 

StephenHunter

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Thalys is one example - even though it stops at both Brussels and Antwerp you actually cannot buy a Thalys ticket between the two stops – similar to Eurostar and London–Ashford. On the French side it goes non-stop from Paris to Brussels. But you're right of course, it is very unusual. (It's also worth remembering how unusual international trains are in the grand scheme of things - only in Europe does high-speed rail cross international borders)

Apart from the UK trains, all the stuff from Brussels is going within the Schengen Area. The French passport check at St Pancras and the other two UK stations is going to be an EU external border check after Brexit.
 

RT4038

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The answer to journey times for north(-ish) Britain to Paris/Brussels, and/or London to further into Europe, would surely be sleepers. I realise that extra destinations bring extra problems with passport checks/barriers etc. But other European railways have largely managed with on-train passport checks for generations (at least, since passports as we know them today became "a thing" in the early 20th century) - so with a bit of goodwill, some imagination, and a combination of some sort of platform security checks [if desired] plus on-board passport controls [after all, there's be plenty of time...], then surely sleepers could take over from a lot of air travel when the latter is wound down. (I always thought the spacious disused Eurostar infrastructure at Waterloo could be ideal for overnight trains and the related servicing systems, even after the day trains moved to St P, since the extra time using the earlier route through south London to pick up the fast line wouldn't matter so much on an overnight trip.

This would not be an answer, because the UK government demand that no passengers without correct passports/visas are brought to the UK. Other European railways might have managed on board checks in the past, but this was before economic migrants and asylum seekers were the problem that they are perceived to be now. It would technically be possible for E* to operate like the airlines, with E* staff checking passports and visas before boarding, and UK immigration to screen all arriving passengers, like the airlines and shipping companies do. However St Pancras does not have the space set up to receive trains of 700+ passengers and check the immigration status of them. Whether the immigration checks are done before boarding (like now) or on arrival (like the airlines), on board checking is just not going to happen, due to the expense and risk of unauthorised arrivals.
 

edwin_m

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Also everything in China has baggage screening - you even have to put your bag through an X-ray and go through a detector arch to get on the Beijing Metro! This is totally pointless - they obviously can't do a very thorough job because otherwise there would be huge queues, and you're mostly just waved through.
There's also been at least one case (a Chechen in Russia IIRC) where a bomber has just blown themselves up in the security queue. That probably causes more carnage than doing so on the train, at least on an intercity type where people are more spaced out.
Thalys is one example - even though it stops at both Brussels and Antwerp you actually cannot buy a Thalys ticket between the two stops – similar to Eurostar and London–Ashford. On the French side it goes non-stop from Paris to Brussels. But you're right of course, it is very unusual. (It's also worth remembering how unusual international trains are in the grand scheme of things - only in Europe does high-speed rail cross international borders)
Indeed. And like Eurostar it has the advantage of connecting cities that are large enough to generate enough business, and international enough to do so despite being in different countries, at around the 3hr travel time which is optimal for high speed rail. If the US ever gets its act together on high speed rail there are probably some crossing the Canadian border.
 

island

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There is an immigration queuing area on arrival...
Which is to facilitate the (usually) 4 runs a week of 9O57, the early evening arrival from Marne-la-Vallée–Chessy which has French Police aux Frontières checks before departure but which has no UK Border Force checks there, so checks are done on arrival.

This causes the Mitie security personnel at St. Pancras no end of grief as they have to segregate arriving uncleared passengers from those from other cleared trains arriving at similar times, and a nearly-full 373 still has the queue backing up onto the platform. They also have to search the platform after everyone gets off in case there are any clandestines waiting for the next train to arrive when they could mingle with cleared passengers.

(To pre-empt the question as to why Eurostar is willing to take the risk of having to return inadmissible passengers to France on this service, it is incredibly low-risk as materially all passengers are British (or at least British resident) families on short trips to Disneyland Paris.)

(To pre-empt the other question as to why there is no UK Border Force présence at Marne-la-Vallée–Chessy, with usually 4tpw it’s not cost-effective.)

(To pre-empt the other other question as to why this is not cost effective but presence at Moûtiers and Bourg-Saint-Maurice which has only 2tpw is cost effective, the 2tpw from these are on the one day, as opposed to the MWFSu usual service at Marne-la-Vallée–Chessy.)
 

RT4038

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There is an immigration queuing area on arrival...

Sufficient to cater for the arrival of 700+ passengers at once? No. Take a look at the arrivals hall of a Heathrow or Gatwick terminal, to get some idea of the space required. Think two trains of this capacity arriving within minutes of each other......
 
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