Nym
Established Member
Potentially more likely the desire for coupleable formations of maximum length and the limiting factor of St Pancras platforms?
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Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates
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greatvoyager
Established Member
Its because when they run in double formation, the longer 80x unit would be too long for the platform at St Pancras' so they have to be shorter.
43096
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Correct. 10 cars of the Hitachi sets will be 240m, as will a 12-car 360.
greatvoyager
Established Member
That will at least be consistent.
greatvoyager
Established Member
When they finally enter service, St Pancras will be much quieter.
greatvoyager
Established Member
Do we know whether the uprated engine will be fitted?
cactustwirly
Established Member
greatvoyager
Established Member
Last time I heard, the GWR units have a 940hp engine for use on the steep Devon banks and LNER units had the standard 750hp engine.
cactustwirly
Established Member
Same engine, the LNER units have different software de-rating the engine
PG
Established Member
I could be wrong but this maybe refers to the original specification of the 80x engines being restricted in order to provide a longer life ie not run at their full power rating.
After the government partially cancelled electrification TOCs pointed out that this would mean services running slower than previously and so DfT had to renegotiate the contracts with Hitachi to allow the engines to run at full power.
greatvoyager
Established Member
In that case, the question is are the 804s going to be de-rated?
there's more to this than meets the eye. Someone posted upthread that one of the Railway magazines has shared details of the proposed configuration of the 5 cars and there's only 2 motored vehicles. This would have an effect on performance on electric, perhaps limiting them to 125mph (the 800/801/802s are 140mph on electric once ERTMS is rolled out). It was also announced that Hitachi have devised a way to deploy 4 diesel power packs. This would mean one diesel power pack per bogie, which means there's sufficient power to run the traction motors flat out on diesel, meaning no difference in performance on diesel vs electric. But with a top speed of 125mph. This looks interesting.
greatvoyager
Established Member
That still doesn't answer the question though. Can they have one extra engine and LNER software to derate? The power output of the derated engine, 750hp, is exactly the same as the current 222s.
43096
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But only 4 engines for 5 cars, unlike a 222 which is 5 engines for 5 cars. As they have to match a 222 for performance, they will presumably have the full 940hp rating: that would give them 3,760hp vs 3,750hp for a 222.
greatvoyager
Established Member
And are the 804 carriages going to weigh more, do we know?
can't find the information to hand quickly but were the Voyagers not built using steel? The 80x is made of aluminium, therefore the 80x would be slightly lighter.
PG
Established Member
IIRC a year or so back Modern Railways published details of the weights of the various coaches of an IET.
Off the top of my head weights varied considerably from 38 to 52 tonnes per coach.
Given that the MML units are shorter coach length I think it's near impossible to say with much certainty what the weight is or if it more than a 222 so we don't yet know if there is more or less hp/tonne?
greatvoyager
Established Member
I believe that's correct. If the 80x are slightly lighter than the 22x, than logically they wouldn't need as much power to reach 125mph, but then again I'm probably wrong.
Wait and see. I think you're not too far wide of the mark.
5x 750 is 3750 bhp, more or less the same as 4x 940 = 3760bhp. With lighter bodies but having a couple of transformers to lug about the power-to-weight ratios will be as near as dammit the same. Modern IGBT traction converters will be a bonus for the 804 so it should have the edge in performance, but there won't be very much in it either way.
Nym
Established Member
The Voyagers and Meridians use IGBT traction already.
greatvoyager
Established Member
Just out of interest, is the IGBT traction always been on the 22x units? If so, has it been developed or changed in any way for the 80x units?
greatvoyager
Established Member
Does anyone know how the profile of the nose will be changed?
43096
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The 22x units had IGBTs from new. Obviously there is going to have been some development since, but it’s a difficult comparison as one is Alstom the other Hitachi.
I've learned something new today.
The renders show it being flatter and possibly steeper.
greatvoyager
Established Member
Makes sense, probably to account for the shorter vehicles.
bramling
Veteran Member
I think I’m right in saying the 365 just beats the 323s. The 365s entered service around 1997, and have GTO traction packages (IIRC as per the 465/2s and 466).
MatthewRead
On Moderation
I thought the 365's entered service in 1995.