Springs Branch stabling sidings project

There's a video of arrival and departure moves on/off SP here.

Llama said:

There's a video of arrival and departure moves on/off SP here.

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Is Stop Board WSB14 the point where the Wigan driver would hand over to a depot driver?

Leaving the depot would the depot driver bring the train as far as signal WN67?

3 CAF units at Springs Branch depot this morning.
Mix of 195/331.

Bovverboy said:

Is Stop Board WSB14 the point where the Wigan driver would hand over to a depot driver?

Leaving the depot would the depot driver bring the train as far as signal WN67?

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I'm not sure to be honest, I don't sign it. If I see a Wiganer to ask them I'll find out.

Bovverboy said:

Further to what I said in post #56, there are now three training diagrams per day booked to run out of Springs Branch, SuX, 16/12/19 to 16/5/20. They're not likely to all operate, of course, and they certainly won't all operate as scheduled, especially since one unit drops off the system at Blackpool North at 1539, only to be replaced by one which miraculously appears out of nowhere an hour and a half earlier. All diagrams are timed for 100 mph DMUs, so presumably 195s.

All the training runs involve shuttling between Blackpool North and Kirkham & Wesham, or Preston, or Wigan North Western, or St Helens Central, or Liverpool Lime Street.

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Two extra journeys have been added, Springs Branch - Blackpool North, and Blackpool North - Springs Branch, and that eliminates what appeared to be an overlap between diagrams (1409 - 1539) at Blackpool North.
So there are now four training diagrams booked from 16/12, Mon - Fri, as follows:
5Z20, etc, 0751 - 1713
5Z30, etc, 0922 - 1757
5Z40, etc, 1249 - 2237
5Z50, etc, 1438 - 2226

Bovverboy said:

Further to what I said in post #56, there are now three training diagrams per day booked to run out of Springs Branch, SuX, 16/12/19 to 16/5/20. They're not likely to all operate, of course, and they certainly won't all operate as scheduled, especially since one unit drops off the system at Blackpool North at 1539, only to be replaced by one which miraculously appears out of nowhere an hour and a half earlier. On Saturdays (when there are slight differences to the diagrams), one unit disappears at St Helens Central, but it would only be due to return to Springs Branch from there anyway.

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Equivalent journeys have been added on Saturdays, too, as has the missing journey St Helens Central - Springs Branch.

So the Saturday duties are:
5Z20, etc, 0746 - 1713
5Z30, etc, 0922 - 1814
5Z40, etc, 1301 - 2237
5Z50, etc, 1438 - 2226

Bovverboy said:

The third returning EMU diagram (which, like one of the others, comes ECS from Blackpool North) has now been also loaded in respect of Mondays to Fridays.
So that leaves the current state of play as follows.
Mondays to Fridays: 3 DMU & 2 EMU diagrams departing, 3 DMU & 3 EMU diagrams returning.
Saturdays: 3 DMU & 1 EMU diagrams departing, 3 DMU & 3 EMU diagrams returning.

There's no sign of any of the departing EMUs being formed of double units, so there's presumably some changes still to be made.

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The above is still what is showing on RTT, today, Saturday 14/12/19.

However the first units to run into the depot, ex service, are scheduled to do so tonight - it looks to be two DMU and two EMU. Strangely, only one of those involves a diagram which is booked to run in on subsequent Saturday nights, but timetable changes could have had that result, I suppose.
The two EMUs run in off Lime Street - Wigan and Manchester Victoria - Preston. The DMUs are ex Leeds - Southport (one) and, surprisingly, York - Blackpool (one).

EDIT: Sorry, the ex-Southport unit comes off Wigan - Stalybridge/Alderley Edge, it only extends to Southport on its last trip.

If anyone should happen to pass the depot today, could you possibly report what rolling stock is visible? At least three sets did make it to the depot last night, and there looked to be something already stabled there when I passed early yesterday evening.
I was hoping to be able to predict what stock would finish at the depot by catching up with the relevant diagrams earlier in the evening but, courtesy of Northern cancelling trains left, right, and centre, I only managed to spot one set out of the four scheduled to finish there. The one set that I did see (a double 150/1) was itself terminated at Oxford Road on its last service journey (to Southport); it apparently then went ECS to Victoria. If I had to guess, I would say that it finished up at Newton Heath, so I think it now doubtful that it will get to Springs Branch, it's quite likely that it will be sent ECS to Southport directly from Newton Heath on Monday morning - and, bearing in mind the class of stock, I certainly think it is most likely that the Southport start is what it will go on.

Sorry, double post.

According to RTT the first service diagram has successfully left Springs Branch, it's now in P6 at Wigan North Western ready to work 0535 Wigan - Liverpool.

Bovverboy said:

I was hoping to be able to predict what stock would finish at the depot by catching up with the relevant diagrams earlier in the evening but, courtesy of Northern cancelling trains left, right, and centre, I only managed to spot one set out of the four scheduled to finish there. The one set that I did see (a double 150/1) was itself terminated at Oxford Road on its last service journey (to Southport); it apparently then went ECS to Victoria. If I had to guess, I would say that it finished up at Newton Heath, so I think it now doubtful that it will get to Springs Branch, it's quite likely that it will be sent ECS to Southport directly from Newton Heath on Monday morning - and, bearing in mind the class of stock, I certainly think it is most likely that the Southport start is what it will go on.

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The diagram which had been booked to depart Springs Branch at 0600 and run ECS to Southport has actually departed Wigan North Western P3 at c.0558. No indication of how it got there. If it's the set which should have finished at Southport last night it should be 150139+150121.

The other two diesel diagrams, forming the 0556 and 0656 Wigan North Western - Leeds, have operated as scheduled. That does rather beg the question of where the second set came from, since there is only one diesel diagram recorded as having arrived at Springs Branch last night. Yes, I know that one set could have arrived as a 4-car and departed as 2 x 2-car, but I thought it unlikely that 2-car sets would go on Wigan - Leeds in the morning peak.
There's now only one more service diagram scheduled to leave Springs this morning, that goes to do 0806 Wigan North Western - Liverpool Lime Street via Newton-le-Willows. I don't see any problem there, there should be an EMU on depot at the moment.

Bovverboy said:

I thought it unlikely that 2-car sets would go on Wigan - Leeds in the morning peak.

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Surprisingly common, that.

Class 170101 said:

Is the 05:35 Wigan NW to Liverpool in your post above not a double unit currently? Hasn't someone elsewhere suggested that a train runs with a unit locked out currently?

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Bovverboy said:

I've checked it through and can't find any sign that the 05.35 is a double unit. It currently comes ECS from Preston Croft Street sidings, two EMU sets arrive there in an evening and two depart in a morning. That doesn't prove that one of the arriving sets isn't a double, but if it were there wouldn't appear to be any sense in it.
I've also checked the train's arrival at Lime Street, it currently does 0645 Wigan, from December it does 0636 Blackpool, in neither instance is there any sign of the train splitting into two.

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The 0535 Wigan - Liverpool doesn't run as a double, but the forming journey, 0511 Springs Branch S/S - Wigan NW ECS, does. It splits at North Western into the 0535 and 0551 departures. This, of course, explains why three EMU diagrams are scheduled to run into the depot in an evening, but only two are scheduled to depart in a morning. I'm surprised I haven't picked up on this before now.
(The 0535 and 0551 departures seem remarkably close together, the next isn't till 0621).

Bovverboy said:

There's now only one more service diagram scheduled to leave Springs this morning, that goes to do 0806 Wigan North Western - Liverpool Lime Street via Newton-le-Willows. I don't see any problem there, there should be an EMU on depot at the moment.

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Well, I got that one wrong, the ECS move from Springs Branch, 0742 from there, was cancelled. The 0806 Wigan - Liverpool did operate, but, as a bit of a giveaway, it departed P6 instead of the booked P1. That implies it arrived as part of a double set, possibly the 0542 ex-Liverpool, which I believe normally comes ECS from Allerton to Lime Street as a single unit, so that could have been doubled without anything showing on RTT. Of course, after today there should be three EMUs available at Springs Branch in a morning.

Wasn't paying much attention to types but 3 CAF units on SP on Monday at 19:00.

MDB1images said:

Wasn't paying much attention to types but 3 CAF units on SP on Monday at 19:00.

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Logically they should have been 195s, since four 195 training diagrams are booked for Mondays to Saturdays. None appear to have actually left the depot yet, though.

Fun and games (not) this morning with the Springs Branch starts. Of the EMU duties the one forming the 0535 Wigan - Liverpool left Springs Branch in plenty of time but didn't depart Wigan NW until 0602 and even then it ran ECS to Bryn, from where it ran in service to Liverpool. The reason for it not running as scheduled was given by Northern as vandalism, which seems odd in the circumstances. The 0551 Wigan - Liverpool and 0806 Wigan - Liverpool failed to operate, which may have been simply a consequence of lack of rolling stock - I can only track one EMU to Springs Branch last night instead of the three scheduled.
The DMU forming the 0556 Wigan NW - Leeds also left Springs Branch in plenty of time but didn't depart North Western until 0628. The 0550 Wigan NW - Alderley Edge, the stock for which comes ECS from Newton Heath, didn't depart until 0625, despite the stock having arrived from Newton Heath at 0528.
The Springs Branch duties forming the 0656 Wigan NW - Leeds and 0717 Southport - Alderley Edge ran pretty well as scheduled.
The delayed/cancelled EMU diagrams seemed to take half a day to get back on track.

Last night's 1917 Leeds - Wigan NW was terminated at Manchester Victoria (no driver) and the stock toddled off to Newton Heath. That left Springs Branch a set short for this morning's services so the 0600 ECS Springs Branch - Southport was cancelled from Springs and rescheduled to start at Wigan Wallgate at 0616, but with no indication of how stock was going to get there. It apparently didn't, so the 0717 Southport - Alderley Edge has been curtailed to start at Wallgate at 0750.
Meanwhile, another Springs Branch diagram, 0656 Wigan NW - Leeds has been cancelled Wigan - Manchester Victoria, reportedly through a fault with the train. That can't have been the complete absence of same, since two DMUs did definitely finish up at Springs last night.
Springs Branch has yet to supply a full day's turnout, although on Monday all its services did operate, one having been supplied from another depot.

The part-cancelled 0656 Wigan NW - Leeds departed Victoria, not at the scheduled 0736, but at 0757, immediately in front of the 'real' 0757 Manchester Victoria - Leeds (but via Halifax).
The 0717 Southport - Alderley Edge wasn't started at Wigan Wallgate, it was cancelled through to Alderley Edge and back to Wallgate, departing there for Southport at 1103 (scheduled 1054).

Bovverboy said:

Fun and games (not) this morning with the Springs Branch starts. Of the EMU duties the one forming the 0535 Wigan - Liverpool left Springs Branch in plenty of time but didn't depart Wigan NW until 0602 and even then it ran ECS to Bryn, from where it ran in service to Liverpool. The reason for it not running as scheduled was given by Northern as vandalism, which seems odd in the circumstances.

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Wigan North Western station was closed for a while yesterday morning due to having been ram-raided.

Llama said:

Wigan North Western station was closed for a while yesterday morning due to having been ram-raided.

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Thanks for that, the problem did appear to be something to do with the station rather than the trains. Did they get away with anything?

Bovverboy said:

Thanks for that, the problem did appear to be something to do with the station rather than the trains. Did they get away with anything?

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I've no idea, from the pictures I've seen it looks like it was largely unsuccessful other than causing a lot of damage to the station entrance hall.

According to the local news they took a cash machine, it was found abandonded later, not sure about the contents

Of the three Springs Branch DMU diagrams, it would seem that none made it back to depot last night, and none departed from there this morning.
The 1917 Leeds - Wigan North Western was terminated at Manchester Victoria (no conductor) and continued from there ECS. However instead of then going ECS from Wigan NW to Sprngs Branch it apparently stabled in P2 at North Western.
The 2018 Leeds - Wigan North Western ran pretty well as scheduled but it too then stabled overnight at Wigan NW, in its case in P3.
The 2310 Southport - Wigan Wallgate, which would normally then go ECS to Springs Branch, was terminated at Wallgate. I thought it had perhaps stabled in P3, but RTT shows it as arriving in P2 and departing this morning (ECS to Southport) from P1, so it's a bit unknown what happened in between.

Northern seem to be very reluctant to make full use of the Springs Branch site, for whatever reason. As far as I can see there has been only one night up to now when all three diesel diagrams have made it back to base. On other occasions sets have been stabled in P2 and P3 at North Western station, in Wallgate Up Carriage Sidings, and Newton Heath CMD. Of course, the Newton Heath involvement is easily explained, sets get sent there when there isn't a driver available to cover the Manchester Victoria to Wigan North Western leg of the 1917 or 2018 journeys ex-Leeds.
The three EMU duties have usually got back to Springs, but they haven't always.

Sounds like there had been a derailment this morning here according to Piccadilly Twitter feed:

⚠️⚠️

A derailed train is blocking trains in and out of #Wigan Springs Branch depot.

Delays and cancellations on services through #WiganNorthWestern station.

Please check @nationalrailenq and @northernassist for the very latest travel info

⚠️⚠️

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https://twitter.com/NetworkRailMAN/status/1214077214976888832?s=19

Only Springs Branch diagrams are affected. Even then, a DMU appears to have 'escaped' and made it to Wigan North Western and done its scheduled 0556 to Leeds. So that leaves 3 EMU and 2 DMU trapped at Springs Branch.

Bovverboy said:

Only Springs Branch diagrams are affected. Even then, a DMU appears to have 'escaped' and made it to Wigan North Western and done its scheduled 0556 to Leeds. So that leaves 3 EMU and 2 DMU trapped at Springs Branch.

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Seems to have led to one Leeds service cancelled (0656 from Wigan) one of the Wigan - Lime Street diagrams being cancelled (0751 Wigan - Liv and the return 0845) and several short forms plus one cancellation on Southport - Stalybridge / Alderley Edge services. However, things do by and large seem to be coping*.

Hopefully they'll manage to get things back on track (sorry, couldn't resist) by the evening peak tonight.

* Though less so if you live in Westhoughton, Farnworth, Kearsley, or Moses Gate, where you've had a 90 minute - 2 hour gap in service.

Mathew S said:

Seems to have led to one Leeds service cancelled (0656 from Wigan) one of the Wigan - Lime Street diagrams being cancelled (0751 Wigan - Liv and the return 0845) and several short forms plus one cancellation on Southport - Stalybridge / Alderley Edge services. However, things do by and large seem to be coping*.

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It's a little suspicious that 5C00, 0511 Springs Branch - Wigan North Western ECS, which is diagrammed for a double EMU (splitting at WGN into 2C00 0535 Wigan - Liverpool and 2C90 0551 Wigan - Liverpool) should this morning should be VSTP'd into two separate ECS workings - both were cancelled, though. The extra working was activated at 0305, suggesting the possibility of whatever happened at the depot had already happened by that time.
The cancelled journeys appear to have been as follows.
5C90 0505 Springs Branch - Wigan NW ECS
2C90 0551 Wigan NW - Liverpool LS
2F52 0645 Liverpool LS - Wigan NW
2C04 0751 Wigan NW - Liverpool LS
A unit was then brought from Allerton to pick up the next journey on the diagram, 2F60 0845 Liverpool LS - Wigan NW.

5C00 0511 Springs Branch - Wigan NW ECS
2C00 0535 Wigan NW - Liverpool LS
1N80 0636 Liverpool LS - Blackpool N
1F04 0804 Blackpool N - Liverpool LS
2F64 0945 Liverpool LS - Wigan NW
A unit was then brought from Springs Branch to pick up the next journey on the diagram, 1051 Wigan NW - Liverpool LS.

5K82 0600 Springs Branch - Southport ECS
2K82 0717 Southport - Alderley Edge cancelled to Manchester Piccadilly, service from there formed from the unit off 2S05 (0726 New Mills Central - Manchester Piccadilly), which I think would normally go to Newton Heath.

5J00 0634 Springs Branch - Wigan NW ECS
2I03 0656 Wigan NW - Leeds
2I88 0917 Leeds - Wigan Wallgate
2I13 1156 Wigan Wallgate -Leeds
2I98 1417 Leeds - Wigan Wallgate cancelled to Manchester Victoria, service from there probably formed from splitting 2W58 (1436 Southport - Stalybridge)

5F21 0742 Springs Branch - Wigan NW ECS
2F21 0806 Wigan NW - Liverpool LS
A unit was probably provided by Allerton to pick up the next journey on the diagram, 2F62 0915 Liverpool LS - Wigan NW. This may have come from Allerton coupled to the unit for 2F60 earlier.

Note that the 0845 Liverpool LS - Wigan NW did operate, although I believe it was showing as cancelled initially.

No services to Alderley Edge appear to have been cancelled after Piccadilly (and only one thereto), and none on Southport - Stalybridge at all.

No spare rolling stock or crews, and there isn't really scope for things going wrong.

* Though less so if you live in Westhoughton, Farnworth, Kearsley, or Moses Gate, where you've had a 90 minute - 2 hour gap in service.

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I can only find a single hour's gap at Westhoughton, when the 0717 ex-Southport missed. I can't find any irregularities at Farnworth, Kearsley, or Moses Gate - the Alderleys don't stop.

Bovverboy said:

It's a little suspicious that 5C00, 0511 Springs Branch - Wigan North Western ECS, which is diagrammed for a double EMU (splitting at WGN into 2C00 0535 Wigan - Liverpool and 2C90 0551 Wigan - Liverpool) should this morning should be VSTP'd into two separate ECS workings - both were cancelled, though. The extra working was activated at 0305, suggesting the possibility of whatever happened at the depot had already happened by that time.

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Possibly control knew in advance that the Victoria driver was known not to sign splitting of 319s.
This has transpired to be a risk to this movement - it's a Wigan driver who brings the 2x319s from Springs Branch however Wigan haven't been trained on coupling or uncoupling of 319s so it's reliant on the Vic driver who comes in on 5K80 to do the splitting. However Vic drivers don't do that much work with 319s, so there's been a couple of occasions when the splitting hasn't happened, with both 319s going as one train on either the 0535 or 0551.