Avanti mTickets not valid on CrossCountry?

Steddenm · 6 Jan 2020

Purchased a ticket from SOU to RDG on the Avanti App yesterday and the XC guard told me that it wasn't valid as only valid on Avanti West Coast services and made me buy a new ticket. I know this is wrong but surely mTickets are valid on all operators?

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alistairlees · 6 Jan 2020

Steddenm said:
Purchased a ticket from SOU to RDG on the Avanti App yesterday and the XC guard told me that it wasn't valid as only valid on Avanti West Coast services and made me buy a new ticket. I know this is wrong but surely mTickets are valid on all operators?

Unless I'm missing something really obvious, the XC guard is very wrong here. It doesn't matter where you bought it from, so long as it's valid for the journey being made. You should seek to get your additional outlay refunded as a minimum.

How the XC guard could believe a ticket from Southampton to Reading could be used on Avanti too is beyond my understanding.

Also, was this really an eTicket - I assume you did not need to 'activate' it?

Bletchleyite · 6 Jan 2020

Steddenm said:
Purchased a ticket from SOU to RDG on the Avanti App yesterday and the XC guard told me that it wasn't valid as only valid on Avanti West Coast services and made me buy a new ticket. I know this is wrong but surely mTickets are valid on all operators?

Sounds like the guard was wrong to me (there wouldn't be any Avanti-only tickets for that flow as you can't use them for that journey!). Take it up with XC and pursue a full (no admin fee) refund of the unnecessary additional ticket purchased.

jfollows · 6 Jan 2020

Assuming that the original poster bought a ticket from Southampton to Reading which was valid on Cross Country, in the form of an e-ticket or m-ticket, then Cross Country should be compensating Steddenm for significantly more than "just" a refund for the ticket he/she was compelled to purchase. Being compelled to buy a ticket when already holding a valid ticket is just unacceptable.
Although clearly responding to customer demand, why are tickets like these sold if the standard of staff training means that their rejection is not a very rare event? It certainly sounds as if the guard was very wrong and needs to be given proper training immediately.

Steddenm · 6 Jan 2020

Thanks for your advice. I have emailed CrossCountry and they have said it'll be 10 days to sort out.

The guard on the said service was rude and abrupt. There is a screenshot of the ticket purchased attached. It is any permitted route.

jfollows · 6 Jan 2020

Yes, that's indeed a ticket valid on Cross Country, and just as valid as if it were a printed ticket for the same price.

Please make sure that you make a formal complaint to Cross Country, identifying the service you used. It's bad enough that you were incorrectly compelled to buy another ticket, but if the guard was rude and abrupt as well that's a further level of unacceptability.

I have seen other tales on this forum (no personal experience, fortunately) in which Cross Country initially blusters and makes out that their staff were correct in what they did. I'm not saying that this will also happen here, but be warned!

sheff1 · 6 Jan 2020

alistairlees said:
How the XC guard could believe a ticket from Southampton to Reading could be used on Avanti too is beyond my understanding.

Mine too. And, to think, this person is responsible for the safety of passengers.

Ferret · 6 Jan 2020

One to chase up with Customer Relations; that’s a training issue...

kristiang85 · 6 Jan 2020

I saw someone have exactly the same problem on a CC train a few days ago - again, being told by the staff member that their mTicket was invalid as it was Avanti only, so he had to buy a new ticket (it was going south, though). Although the guard did say that if he felt he had been missold it, he should contact their customer services for a refund.

jfollows · 6 Jan 2020

kristiang85 said:
I saw someone have exactly the same problem on a CC train a few days ago - again, being told by the staff member that their mTicket was invalid as it was Avanti only, so he had to buy a new ticket (it was going south, though). Although the guard did say that if he felt he had been missold it, he should contact their customer services for a refund.

I surmise that it might have been the same staff member on both occasions. Either that, or the poor implementation of poor training is more widespread.

gray1404 · 6 Jan 2020

I've had a similar issue on XC with a ticket I purchased on Omio. I refused to pay anything further. The usual threats of Police followed but I then ignored the guard totally until they walked away.

Goldfish62 · 6 Jan 2020

You have to wonder what sort of training these people have, or why they seem to be lacking basic common sense. I'd have thought it was obvious that a legitimate eticket showing a scannable QR code was valid irrespective of where it was purchased.

You need to pursue a full refund and additional compensation.

jfollows · 6 Jan 2020

I don't believe the m-ticket includes a scannable code (be it a QR code or an Aztec code) but rather a ticket inside an "app" which requires activation. Be that as it may, it's still a valid ticket once it's been activated. Many of us have said that m-tickets are a mistake and should be replaced by e-tickets (which do include a scannable code) as soon as possible.

I myself refuse to use m-tickets (for many reasons, not just the one documented here) and only use e-tickets when they're advance purchase tickets for specific trains, and advise others similarly, but that advice is of little use to the original poster's problem now.

Merseysider · 6 Jan 2020

jfollows said:
I don't believe the m-ticket includes a scannable code

Tapping the “barcode” tab visible in the image shows a scannable code.

jfollows · 6 Jan 2020

Merseysider said:
Tapping the “barcode” tab visible in the image shows a scannable code.

Ah, thank you for that, good to know if/when I might end up using one .....

trenopendo · 6 Jan 2020

@Steddenm , you were absolutely on the right. Make sure to take this to the very final consequences, including the Ombudsman and the Courts if it comes to it.

TUC · 6 Jan 2020

Ferret said:
One to chase up with Customer Relations; that’s a training issue...

Nothing to do with training, Issues like this are just incompetence.

Ferret · 6 Jan 2020

TUC said:
Nothing to do with training, Issues like this are just incompetence.

Just your opinion...

While I find this incident a little staggering, please trust me when I say I am in a far better position to understand than you are...

trenopendo · 6 Jan 2020

Ferret said:
While I find this incident a little staggering

Only "a little"? This reeks of utter incompetence in the best case -- outright malice in the worst.

Mag_seven · 6 Jan 2020

If only there was a "penalty fare" system for mistakes made by TOC staff! Might concentrate minds if £20 was deleted from their wage packet each time they rather than the passenger made a "genuine mistake".

miami · 6 Jan 2020

Do guards make money for ontrain sales?

TUC · 6 Jan 2020

Ferret said:
Just your opinion...

While I find this incident a little staggering, please trust me when I say I am in a far better position to understand than you are...

What is difficult about knowing that an Off Peak Day Return Any Permitted ticket's validity is based on the conditions for that ticket, not on whether it is in paper or electronic form?

yorkie · 6 Jan 2020

A breach of contract law, consumer law, the Ticketing Settlement Agreement and XC's franchise agreement have occurred.

XC are obligated to refund you the monies they owe you that were incorrectly charged by their Guard.

Please do report this to XC and the ORR and let us know the outcome.

Please also contact the retailer, Avanti, and inform them that this incident has occurred. I would retailer with your XC reference number. A good retailer will back you up.

miami said:
Do guards make money for ontrain sales?

On many routes yes. Not sure about XC; can anyone confirm?

TUC said:
What is difficult about knowing that an Off Peak Day Return Any Permitted ticket's validity is based on the conditions for that ticket, not on whether it is in paper or electronic form?

I don't think we need to get into a debate about whether it was "incompetence" or not, however I think we can all agree this was a serious incident which has brought the rail industry into disrepute.

It is the duty of XC to provide adequate training and have sufficient safeguards to protect legitimate passengers and ensure that the company is not breaching relevant laws and contracts.

Steddenm said:
I know this is wrong but surely mTickets are valid on all operators?

The medium is not relevant to the validity of any products; the flow setter that sets the flow can control which mediums any particular product can be issued on.

Ferret · 6 Jan 2020

TUC said:
What is difficult about knowing that an Off Peak Day Return Any Permitted ticket's validity is based on the conditions for that ticket, not on whether it is in paper or electronic form?

Depends if you have knowledge of railways like you and me, or whether you’ve come into the railway from a different background and had some alleged training, then headed out into the jungle!

Ferret · 6 Jan 2020

yorkie said:
On many routes yes. Not sure about XC; can anyone confirm?

Affirm. Tantamount to beer money though, so not sure of the relevance to this incident.

transmanche · 6 Jan 2020

TUC said:
Nothing to do with training, Issues like this are just incompetence.

Ferret said:
Just your opinion...

And it's an opinion that I (and others on this forum) share. Something so basic doesn't need 'training'.

Passengers don't get 'training', but understand that they can use the TOC app of their choice to purchase tickets for any journey. (TOCs spend enough money advertising their own apps and making sure you know you can use their app for any National Rail journey.)

TBH, a conductor would probably have to go out of their way to find out which TOCs app was being used, being as the mTicket screen is identical on all apps that support them.

TUC · 6 Jan 2020

Ferret said:
Depends if you have knowledge of railways like you and me, or whether you’ve come into the railway from a different background and had some alleged training, then headed out into the jungle!

If they don't know the validity of very common tickets how are they doing any accurate ticket checks at all?

There is no excuse for any rail staff these days to claim to not know about ticket validities because, if in doubt, they could just do like anyone else and look it up online.

Ferret · 6 Jan 2020

transmanche said:
And it's an opinion that I (and others on this forum) share. Something so basic doesn't need 'training'.
.

Hope those blinkers are comfortable

yorkie · 6 Jan 2020

If XC's training indicate that it's acceptable to charge for a new ticket if you are unsure of it's validity, that's a serious matter indeed.

Alternatively if the XC Guard was certain that the ticket was invalid as their training was to reject such tickets, that's incredibly serious too.

I really can't think of any set of circumstances where this could be remotely acceptable; there are some very serious questions that need to be answered, some of which are very fundamental questions, given other incidents involving XC.

My sources suggest there are some rotten people at the top of XC however I am unable to elaborate on that any further for obvious reasons.

transmanche · 6 Jan 2020

Ferret said:
Hope those blinkers are comfortable

What a ridiculous and insulting thing to say.

Ferret said:
I am in a far better position to understand than you are...

I don't give a monkey's what 'expert insight' you might claim to have, obvious incompetence should be called out as such.

Avanti mTickets not valid on CrossCountry?

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