First Group: General Discussion

DragonEast said:

Just musing, is there a nice bit of irony here? The MBO of Eastern National sold out to Badgerline at what I suspect was a well inflated price in the days when you bought market share at any price (as Moir then amply and promptly demonstrated). Then former EN directors bought into Western Greyhound who were for years the thorn in the side of FSW, before they collapsed and they lost everything. Can we date FSW's rise to at least a partial consequence?

Now First Essex (the old ENOC) are dying (well a bit of exaggeration, but not too much) and FSW (Badgerline, virtually, as was) are thriving. Poetic justice. I don't think I'd be rushing in with the life support though, either!

Locally, I think Hadleigh was the old Hadleigh and District (rather than Eastern National) as Arriva Southend was Southend's municipal transport. The same as Eastern Counties' renowned operations director responsible for much of their recent rise (and who still drives buses) came from Great Yarmouth Transport. It seems that it's not just a recent phenomenon that we have much to thank the municipal operators for, perhaps?

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Have you been overindulging in the new year sherry??? Apart from rambling soundbites, most of what you say is factually incorrect.

First South West is the former Western National business (Cornwall) and Southern National (Somerset). Badgerline forms part of the First West of England business that is based in Bristol with James Freeman.

Western Greyhound's directors may have included Robin Orbell but the main local knowledge came from Mark Howarth who was Western National's MD. As is well documented (and I don't know how you don't know this) but Western Greyhound was going great guns yet overstretched themselves. The peak was c.2011 but with austerity came various council cuts, tender losses, reductions in pass remuneration that they could've dealt with but then came the disastrous fire in 2013 that devastated the fleet. First South West were already winning work before Alex Carter et al arrived in 2014. However, they clearly realised that WG were fatally wounded and capitalised accordingly, commencing competitive services. However, the directors sold the WG business to Go Ahead/some cowboy called Adam Smith so they didn't lose everything in the collapse as you stated.

Also, are you actually inferring that the Hadleigh depot is better presented as it was somehow "Hadleigh and District" and a municipal?? It was actually Westcliff on Sea Motor Services and it was a Tilling subsidiary for years before it was integrated into the adjacent Eastern National business in the early 1950s. Not a municipal.

Many of the elder statesmen in the UK bus industry actually cut their teeth as National Bus Co trainees and have been around the major groups and elsewhere. That First EC can prosper and yet First Essex can't is a quandary given the management team. Certainly, ECC is no worse in supporting buses than Norfolk or Suffolk. However, you reckon that it can't be turned round??? Well, people were saying that about First South West and that has demonstrably been turned round. There's some very good best practice being enacted (despite the obvious capital limitations and pressure to improve margins) but none of that is appearing in Essex.

It needs some managerial talent, simplify the network, improve the marketing, and get some decent cascaded fleet in there to clear out the real rubbish, not merely some more 2005 Darts.

TheGrandWazoo said:

Have you been overindulging in the new year sherry??? Apart from rambling soundbites, most of what you say is factually incorrect. ... It needs some managerial talent, simplify the network, improve the marketing, and get some decent cascaded fleet in there to clear out the real rubbish, not merely some more 2005 Darts.

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OK, too much merry Xmas and making up history; but what are you on; as far as First Essex is concerned are you off with the fairies (or being in Somerset, on a mission to make a pig fly) perhaps?

First Essex have, I understand had an on-going recovery plan for many years. Do we think First haven't in that time thought of and tried, everything (and in the course of doing so worked their way through several MDs)? Much as we'd like to, Essex can't be transported across country and relocated next to the Bristol Channel. Of course there was scepticism on the prospects of FSW, but the opportunities afforded by West Country tourism and Bristol's legendary congestion offered opportunities which First were in pole position to exploit, and continue to do so. Of course, there are opportunities in Essex, and operators in pole position to exploit them: Ensign, Arriva, Go-Ahead and Stephensons, amongst others. They are busy doing so. NOT First. The business strategy upon which they have settled is to exploit their modest profit, as they withdraw from anything peripheral and routes that become loss-making over time. Nothing you talk about helps that strategy. It isn't choice, simply that THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE. Everything you mention is the last thing they want, simply pouring money into a black hole. First aren't looking for business opportunities in Essex, rather avoiding them like a plague. That's the difference with FSW. Deliberately. And though I've umm-ed and ahh-ed for years (as you rightly point out) it's the right strategy. The Home Counties is hard work.

Simplify routes; it'd lose their only passengers, those whose only option is to use the bus to travel. It all endangers even their modest profit. Elderly unrefurbished Darts are the perfect vehicles for end-of-life routes. Why should anyone waste their time, or money? In First Essex country, as has been pointed out endlessly, nobody uses the bus unless they have no alternative, so marketing and investment serve no purpose. We get into our cars on purpose, to avoid First like the plague. The only thing not mentioned seems to be coming down here with a shotgun to force us on to the bus; but don't bother; we'd rather choose the real hell rather than the hell-on-earth offered by First Essex. Everyone in a position to know (bar yourself, apparently) knows it. That's why no-one will touch First Essex with a bargepole.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd rather we put our considerable business talents (and, no I'm not being sarcastic) into finding a quicker route out of Essex for First. The management, staff and passengers would all be grateful too. It anyone had a different plan we'd love to hear of it, but I am only joking this time; don't waste your time, there isn't one.
PS The practical realities. News today that Norwich are updating their bus charter. Another reason why First Eastern England investment has to be prioritised to Eastern Counties, NOT Essex; apart from the commercial point that it's more profitable. And why Essex needs an operator with the commercial flexibility to invest even where the local Councils don't compel them to: see Arriva in neighbouring Hertfordshire; or Ensign/Stephensons or even Go-East for that matter!

DragonEast said:

That's the difference with FSW.

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Truronian coaches (part of FSW) Facebook post on new year says it all regarding this bit, and developing parts of the business. The post is...

As 2019 draws to a close, we can look back on a successful year of growth within Truronian Coaches. We started the year as a small unit with 4 full time members of staff and we are ending the year with 15 full time members of staff.
2019 has allowed us to welcome many new and returning clients on-board our coaches and we look forward to continuing to develop these relationships throughout 2020.
With 2020 comes big changes within the industry relating to PSVAR, we already have a significant number of compliant coaches within our fleet and we are expecting delivery of another 4 coaches imminently.
Early in 2020 we are expecting to move offices, within Truro, which will allow us to offer an enhanced customer experience, we will share further information when appropriate.

Happy New Year!

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Does any other First opco have such a developing coach private hire?

richw said:

Truronian coaches (part of FSW) Facebook post on new year says it all regarding this bit, and developing parts of the business. The post is...



Does any other First opco have such a developing coach private hire?

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First Aberdeen have the long established First Aberdeen Coach Hire. Albeit at the moment the quality and growth of the business is questionable at best! Albeit 2019 has seen a improvement over previous years.

DragonEast said:

OK, too much merry Xmas and making up history; but what are you on; as far as First Essex is concerned are you off with the fairies (or being in Somerset, on a mission to make a pig fly) perhaps?

First Essex have, I understand had an on-going recovery plan for many years. Do we think First haven't in that time thought of and tried, everything? Much as we'd like to, Essex can't be transported across country and relocated next to the Bristol Channel. Of course there was scepticism on the prospects of FSW, but the opportunities afforded by West Country tourism and Bristol's legendary congestion offered opportunities which First were in pole position to exploit, and continue to do so. Of course, there are opportunities in Essex, and operators in pole position to exploit them: Ensign, Arriva, Go-Ahead and Stephensons, amongst others. They are busy doing so. NOT First. The business strategy upon which they have settled is to exploit their modest profit, as they withdraw from anything peripheral and routes that become loss-making over time. Nothing you talk about helps that strategy. It isn't choice, simply that THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE. Everything you mention is the last thing they want, simply pouring money into a black hole. First aren't looking for business opportunities in Essex, rather avoiding them like a plague. That's the difference with FSW. Deliberately. And though I've umm-ed and ahh-ed for years (as you rightly point out) it's the right strategy. The Home Counties is hard work.

Simplify routes; it'd lose their only passengers, those whose only option is to use the bus to travel. It all endangers even their modest profit. Elderly unrefurbished Darts are the perfect vehicles for end-of-life routes. Why should anyone waste their time, or money? In First Essex country, as has been pointed out endlessly, nobody uses the bus unless they have no alternative, so marketing and investment serve no purpose. We get into our cars on purpose, to avoid First like the plague. The only thing not mentioned seems to be coming down here with a shotgun to force us on to the bus; but don't bother; we'd rather choose the real hell rather than the hell-on-earth offered by First Essex. Everyone in a position to know (bar yourself, apparently) knows it. That's why no-one will touch First Essex with a bargepole.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd rather we put our considerable business talents (and, no I'm not being sarcastic) into finding a quicker route out of Essex for First. The management, staff and passengers would all be grateful too. It anyone had a different plan we'd love to hear of it, but I am only joking this time; don't waste your time, there isn't one.

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I live a life of simple purity. If you can't get the past right, doesn't bode well for your powers of prediction.

You don't seem to understand what I am on about so here we go. You might also wish to look at Roger French's latest blog to perhaps see what I'm getting at. After all, it's many of the same measures that have successfully applied by First South West and First West of England, and indeed, many other bus companies across the UK. I find it difficult to accept that you cite Arriva as exemplars of good practice. When I look at the former Shires business.... the Hemel minibus debacle, the Stevenage lack of serviceable buses, Harlow and Colchester vacated and then reclaimed, the exit of much of north Herts/Beds gifted to Centrebus...

Simplification doesn't necessarily mean withdrawing services though you have continually banged on about First trying not be all things to all people. It's stuff like having fewer cross city routes in Chelmsford to improve reliability. Also, fewer service variations and rafts of service numbers - check Colchester with the University. Once you get the produce right and reliability is key, you might have a chance to then improve the marketing. We've already seen better branding in places like Ipswich and Norwich. Places like Colchester or Chelmsford are economically strong (albeit beset by traffic congestion) so it's not like operating in depressed places like Oldham or Doncaster. There is potential in the operations that First have in Essex. far more than other parts of the group. Why the group aren't on the case in getting this sorted, one can only wonder?? If it can be done in Norwich or Ipswich, why not in Chelmsford or Colchester or Southend. There should be opportunities to grow the business but the current First management in Essex seem not to be able to even copy the good work elsewhere in East Anglia.

And if there really is no alternative....why do you continually waste your time coming on here? Perhaps you need to travel elsewhere and see that it can be done differently, even by other First OpCos.

TheGrandWazoo said:

I live a life of simple purity. If you can't get the past right, doesn't bode well for your powers of prediction.

You don't seem to understand what I am on about so here we go. You might also wish to look at Roger French's latest blog to perhaps see what I'm getting at. After all, it's many of the same measures that have successfully applied by First South West and First West of England, and indeed, many other bus companies across the UK. I find it difficult to accept that you cite Arriva as exemplars of good practice. When I look at the former Shires business.... the Hemel minibus debacle, the Stevenage lack of serviceable buses, Harlow and Colchester vacated and then reclaimed, the exit of much of north Herts/Beds gifted to Centrebus...

Simplification doesn't necessarily mean withdrawing services though you have continually banged on about First trying not be all things to all people. It's stuff like having fewer cross city routes in Chelmsford to improve reliability. Also, fewer service variations and rafts of service numbers - check Colchester with the University. Once you get the produce right and reliability is key, you might have a chance to then improve the marketing. We've already seen better branding in places like Ipswich and Norwich. Places like Colchester or Chelmsford are economically strong (albeit beset by traffic congestion) so it's not like operating in depressed places like Oldham or Doncaster. There is potential in the operations that First have in Essex. far more than other parts of the group. Why the group aren't on the case in getting this sorted, one can only wonder?? If it can be done in Norwich or Ipswich, why not in Chelmsford or Colchester or Southend. There should be opportunities to grow the business but the current First management in Essex seem not to be able to even copy the good work elsewhere in East Anglia.

And if there really is no alternative....why do you continually waste your time coming on here? Perhaps you need to travel elsewhere and see that it can be done differently, even by other First OpCos.

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I agree with all of this.

There were self-professed experts on this very forum a few years ago saying that Cornwall would never ever get new vehicles.

Goldfish62 said:

I agree with all of this.

There were self-professed experts on this very forum a few years ago saying that Cornwall would never ever get new vehicles.

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Would they have got new buses without a very supportive County Council ? [genuine question, I'm too far away to know]

Robertj21a said:

Would they have got new buses without a very supportive County Council ? [genuine question, I'm too far away to know]

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Probably not nearly as many but that’s not to decry the job that Alex Carter and his team have done. They have transformed that business, removing their major competitor, and nurturing relationships not just with the Council but also Falmouth University. That has enabled the business to be able to create the business cases to the group for the investment.

They also have Buses of Somerset and that is tougher territory with a county council that has not been pro bus. I’ve commented at times on that operation. Some justifiable criticism but also acknowledged the external challenges in an apathetic LA and some dying towns with intensely rural hinterlands. However it’s does seem that they’re beginning to make some headway even there.

Robertj21a said:

Would they have got new buses without a very supportive County Council ? [genuine question, I'm too far away to know]

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As Grandwazoo says probably not as many. However, as far as I'm aware the 19 E400 MMCs for the "Tinner" routes were bought by FSW before the council became increasingly supportive and made a bold demonstration of the company's commitment to the area.

Goldfish62 said:

As Grandwazoo says probably not as many. However, as far as I'm aware the 19 E400 MMCs for the "Tinner" routes were bought by FSW before the council became increasingly supportive and made a bold demonstration of the company's commitment to the area.

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As were the uni ones, of course the lucrative uni contracts would have made them viable.

richw said:

As were the uni ones, of course the lucrative uni contracts would have made them viable.

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Mind you, they’ll be reeling when today’s news.

Having done so much to restore the fortunes of FK, it’ll be a hammer blow.

TheGrandWazoo said:

Mind you, they’ll be reeling when today’s news.

Having done so much to restore the fortunes of FK, it’ll be a hammer blow.

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But it’s only routes that need subsidy to make viable. How lucrative are they? How much profit does a council contract add? About 70% of existing routes are fully commercial so no impact. Truronian is growing at a decent rate by all accounts.

TheGrandWazoo said:

Mind you, they’ll be reeling when today’s news.

Having done so much to restore the fortunes of FK, it’ll be a hammer blow.

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What happened today?

F Great Eastern said:

What happened today?

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Cornwall Council awarded contracts worth 130 buses to GoAhead, not First.

F Great Eastern said:

What happened today?

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Confirmed on the Plymouth and FK threads that Go Ahead were awarded all of the tendered Cornwall work.

It’s 130 vehicles worth of work. Granted, many will be small operators losing work (and livelihoods potentially) but if the quoted figure of 25% of FK being tendered, that’s a big blow.

Does that mean First will stay in Cornwall or not.

Bradley said:

Does that mean First will stay in Cornwall or not.

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Approx 70% of the network is commercially operated. This only the tendered stuff

Thanks richw.

A bit of a slap in the face considering how much First have transformed the network in Cornwall. I bet a lot of the new single deck MMCs and solos are used on tendered work.

richw said:

But it’s only routes that need subsidy to make viable. How lucrative are they? How much profit does a council contract add? About 70% of existing routes are fully commercial so no impact. Truronian is growing at a decent rate by all accounts.

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I’m not saying it’s terminal or anything like that. It’s a big blow nonetheless. Unless they were marginally costed, each of those tendered runs would be contributing to the overhead as well as profit.

It’s saddening especially given the progress that had been made. However, you’re right to say they’ve done a lot to re-energise the coaching operations as well as improve the key corridors with the Tinners and U routes where, IIRC, it was stated that patronage was growing.

This is shocking news ! -- what has brought this about ? -- has First put in "too high" tenders, or what ??

DD12 said:

This is shocking news ! -- what has brought this about ? -- has First put in "too high" tenders, or what ??

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Citybus have history of low bids on callywith college stuff. Their drivers are paid nearly £1.50 an hour less so that’ll make calculations lower

DD12 said:

This is shocking news ! -- what has brought this about ? -- has First put in "too high" tenders, or what ??

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Can’t say. Might be undercosted by GA, or they’ve decided to go in at a low margin. May simply have lower costs (e.g pensions). It’s not straightforward and you’ll have to wait and see.

DD12 said:

This is shocking news ! -- what has brought this about ? -- has First put in "too high" tenders, or what ??

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Unlike many places the tendered services were an integrated part of the network, it wasn’t immediately obvious what was a tender, so it’s a blow.

Go Ahead will need to set up a network of depots or outstations, I expect they will be stretching all the way to Penzance.

Where are they going to get all the vehicles from in time for April, though? It's not as if you can go to a dealer and pick up 130 buses right away.

Andyh82 said:

Unlike many places the tendered services were an integrated part of the network, it wasn’t immediately obvious what was a tender, so it’s a blow.

Go Ahead will need to set up a network of depots or outstations, I expect they will be stretching all the way to Penzance.

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Attached image from firsts timetable book showing the tendered routes.

TheGrandWazoo said:

Can’t say. Might be undercosted by GA, or they’ve decided to go in at a low margin. May simply have lower costs (e.g pensions). It’s not straightforward and you’ll have to wait and see.

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Maybe Firstgroup were not too keen on the funding required for the additional buses.

DunsBus said:

Where are they going to get all the vehicles from in time for April, though? It's not as if you can go to a dealer and pick up 130 buses right away.

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Other parts of GoAhead and dealers such as Ensignbus ?

Robertj21a said:

Other parts of GoAhead and dealers such as Ensignbus ?

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Some of them will need to be very small buses. Plus the council has stipulated Euro V and VI only, so no old heaps.

Goldfish62 said:

Some of them will need to be very small buses. Plus the council has stipulated Euro V and VI only, so no old heaps.

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Also must be a maximum age of 11 years old in 2024, so 2013 or newer by then