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Do you have the right to sit in your allocated seat without being forced to pay for an upgrade?

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yorkie

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https://twitter.com/RupertTrousers/status/1214347985791934464
I have a standard class ticket, but have been allocated a seat in 1st class, as have the majority of other passengers in coach K. ....
If you are allocated a seat on LNER in Coach K, which is a composite coach on an Azuma, and you hold a Standard Class ticket, are you allowed to occupy your allocated seat if the seat turns out to be a 1st class seat, because the train type has been swapped since the time of booking?

Are staff allowed to require passengers to move to a different seat?

If the customer chooses to remain in their allocated seat, are staff allowed to charge them an excess fare?

Would BTP back staff up and require a passenger to vacate their allocated seat in the event of a dispute?
 
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crosscity

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I'd think those nice people at LNER had given me a free upgrade so would remain in the seat and wait for instructions from the train manager. I'd be miffed if it was the other way round and I'd paid for First Class and was allocated a Standard Class seat.
 

Belperpete

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In cases of set-swaps like that described, in my experience the reservations are not displayed, so the reservations are void. Usually, the train manager will make announcements to that effect. So your reservation for a particular seat is void (you may even hold a reservation for a seat that doesn't exist in a first-class coach). So, without a valid reservation, the critical factor is then the class of ticket that you hold. If you hold a standard-class ticket and travel in first-class, then you are required to pay the excess.

In practice, if I was given a reservation for a particular seat, I would occupy that seat. If I was asked to pay an excess or move, I would ask why the coach had not been declassified. If the guard still insisted that I had to move, then I would so, but I would certainly raise a complaint that my reservation hadn't been honoured and I had been inconvenienced by having to move coach.
 

johntea

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Out of interest has anyone ever witnessed a ticket inspection take place on LNER services between Leeds and Bradford / Skipton / Harrogate (or vice versa), I've been using the Harrogate to Leeds evening service pretty much daily now and don't think I've actually seen the guard once even just walking down the train! (I suppose it doesn't matter too much considering all those stations have barriers which are generally never unstaffed)

Presumably first class catering and the like starts/finishes at Leeds too rather than being extended to those stations
 

30907

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In cases of set-swaps like that described, in my experience the reservations are not displayed, so the reservations are void. Usually, the train manager will make announcements to that effect. So your reservation for a particular seat is void (you may even hold a reservation for a seat that doesn't exist in a first-class coach). So, without a valid reservation, the critical factor is then the class of ticket that you hold. If you hold a standard-class ticket and travel in first-class, then you are required to pay the excess.

In practice, if I was given a reservation for a particular seat, I would occupy that seat. If I was asked to pay an excess or move, I would ask why the coach had not been declassified. If the guard still insisted that I had to move, then I would so, but I would certainly raise a complaint that my reservation hadn't been honoured and I had been inconvenienced by having to move coach.

Having experienced an identical set change last week (but with 1st class reservations in K), which was handled IMO in examplary manner by the TM:
1. the reservations download, but not in full (my seat was non existent but a quick negotiation with a fellow passenger sorted that!), and two standard coaches on an Azuma do not exist at all on a Mk4.
2. the TM regularly apologised and asked pax to find alternative seats.
3. he also stated that they were entitled to compensation for their missing reservation.

In the case of the 2333 on Monday night, I suggest that 2 and 3 apply in exactly the same way. The only case for declassifying would be if standard class was full; 2333 is past my bedtime, so I can't comment.

A reservation in First doesn't override the need for a valid ticket.

Of course if the TM made no announcements, passengers might not have been so happy. And I agree using discretion might have been worth it...
 

johntea

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Well I’ve just witnessed several unhappy passengers on the slightly delayed 09:53 Leeds to Harrogate who presumably boarded thinking it was the service out of Leeds to Kings Cross! The PIS is blank and no announcements from the guard

Which I suppose does make it a very easy trap for passengers to fall in to...they look up their train time ‘ah 10:15 LNER Leeds to Kings Cross from Platform 6’ and get there at 10:00 to find a LNER train sat on the platform, nothing unusual about that being there 15 minutes before departure
 

General Zod

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Interesting thread.
I booked a KGX-INV ticket from the LNER website a few weeks back and was not happy with the allocated seat as in was not 'window+table+in direction of travel' . The seat selector wouldn't allow me to change my seat so I phoned customer services to see if they could help. A very polite member of their team changed my seat to one in coach K, which she said was part of the 1st Class coach but not designated as "1st Class". I suggested that my ticket had a coach G reservation printed on it so would there be any issues but she reiterated that I shouldn't have any problems if I sat in my coach K seat. I was emailed a PDF confirmation of my new seat K reservation which I was told to carry on me for reassurance purposes.
 

Snow1964

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Well I’ve just witnessed several unhappy passengers on the slightly delayed 09:53 Leeds to Harrogate who presumably boarded thinking it was the service out of Leeds to Kings Cross! The PIS is blank and no announcements from the guard

Which I suppose does make it a very easy trap for passengers to fall in to...they look up their train time ‘ah 10:15 LNER Leeds to Kings Cross from Platform 6’ and get there at 10:00 to find a LNER train sat on the platform, nothing unusual about that being there 15 minutes before departure

Even when you have a working Passenger screen on the train, there can be confusion, I have been at Wimbledon and a train showing Guildford came in at the exact time a Guildford train was due, but it was a late train going another route. As is normal on SWR neither the lazy station staff or guard made any announcements to untangle the confused passengers.
 

Kilopylae

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I can't speak for L.N.E.R., but this happened to a friend of mine with G.W.R. and the guard on the train explained that the policy was that you had the right to sit in First by virtue of the seat reservation, but that you weren't entitled to any other First Class rights. It was even (rather jokingly) suggested that if he wanted to use the loos he would need to walk to a standard class toilet!

In my view this seems like a fair compromise. Though you are getting a nicer seat without having paid for it, I'd say that's the T.O.C.'s problem. Equally, I don't think that one should be entitled to other First Class benefits purely because of a seat reservation error.
 

island

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I think LNER would look very silly indeed in the court of public opinion if they tried to enforce any charges against or prosecute a passenger for sitting in the seat specified on his ticket. What individual staff members or police officers would do on the day that might inconvenience the passenger is another matter, whether they are entitled to or not.

As Kilopylae alludes to, the passenger could reasonably be refused first class refreshments if holding a standard class ticket.
 

Haywain

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If no seat reservations are in place you can't, in my opinion, reasonably claim to have a specific seat reserved.
 

30907

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If no seat reservations are in place you can't, in my opinion, reasonably claim to have a specific seat reserved.
But what about when seat reservations are partially in place, as in my experience above?
 

infobleep

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From reading the full series of tweets, I get the impression one peeosn had a standard class ticket with a seat reservation for first clsss and their friend had a standard class ticket and no seat reservation.

Alas their friend can't sit with them. There mistake was not to get a seat reservation. If they had, who knows, it might have been for first class. There was no warning that the person with the reservation would end up in first class, when booking the ticket, so their friend had no way of knowing it would be a problem, untill it was too late.

It reminds me of a bit of software I use to use. On one screen a warning message told ussrs that it didn't do any validation and they had to use to common sense. Of course you could thus cause errors later on as you might do something without realising the consequences of it.

As for the person with the first class reservation. I think letting them stay in first class was the right thing to do. If the person with the seat reservation really wanted to be with their friend, they should have sat on the floor with them.

I'm surprised there were no spare standard class seats at that time of night,

If the train manager or TOC didn't want people sat in forts class then the alternative would be to switch off the reservations system across the whole train and give out compensation when requested. I suspect this might cost more.

What would happen if first class ticket holders without a seat reservation wished to sit down and unlike this train, there was no spare seats. Do long distance journeys require first class ticket holder to be able to have a seat?
 
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43094

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This used to happen almost every Sunday, on 1845 Leeds - Kings Cross.

That service was pre-diagrammed to be an EMR HST. However, the seat selection within the booking engine didn’t reflect that.

People who booked a standard class seat in coach F, found their seat was in a first class coach.

Methods taken to resolve that on the day included (depending on the circumstances at the time):

Make customer(s) move to a different standard class coach
Allow the customer(s) to remain where they were, but with no refreshments from the trolley
Allow the customer(s) to remain where they were, with no restrictions.

This discrepancy happened for many, many months (despite being flagged up internally, due to the confusion/conflict that arose), and eventually the staff (and customers) got used to it - the way of dealing with it became generally more relaxed over time.

The bigger issue in First Class was that the EMR sets are lettered F, G & H. The LNER seat reservations on that particular service were always for J, L & M, as per a normal LNER HST. This invariably caused significant confusion.
 
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