61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
If they are getting a second unit (as has been hinted at) I'd expect one of them will end up as a spares donor for the other.
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Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?
- Thread starter Andy Pacer
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IamTrainsYT
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They have plans to run both
Merle Haggard
Established Member
See post 2610!
trainmania100
Established Member
Guessing Sheffield area is the clostest to London that I could see Northern pacers in service? Ive never actually been further North than Bedford by rail and being put off by rail prices I wouldnt mind seeing a few at the cheapest possible location - either that or I wait for east kent railway to get theirs. Meanwhile I need to google the term "dispensation" for I have no idea what it means
thecrofter
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Yes it is. Saw 55621 today (08/01/20) but couldn't confirm the other car (not connected together) as it was obscured by other stock.
158722
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That is 142030 then.
If you want to see class 142's in action Sheffield is not now the best place to go. Manchester Victoria or Salford Crescent are the places you are most likely to see a working 142 followed by Manchester Piccadilly. If you are happy with 144's then Sheffield may yield you some joy. From what I can infer from other members postings Class 142's may appear at Sheffield in the evening rush hour services from Manchester pic.
In simple terms 'dispensation' means permission has been given for some pacers to run in service beyond the 31/12 deadline but only if accompanied by a unit with PRM mods (in theory)….
sprinterguy
Established Member
Interestingly, all of the units (Of classes 142 - 144) preserved outside of the NRM so far have been by lines quite geographically removed from their historic operating areas: Nottinghamshire, West Midlands, Wiltshire and Kent!
The KWVR would seem quite a fitting site to preserve a class 144, given that they were staple traction on Airedale services pre-electrification.
IamTrainsYT
Member
Manchester Piccadilly is a good place for seeing them. There are only 144s in sheffield
Bertie the bus
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Staple traction has little to nothing to do with most heritage lines. They are in the entertainment/leisure industry and trying to convince a family to travel on their line because Pacers are of (some) historical interest when they want to travel on a steam train isn't a very good sales pitch.
Whilst I concur with the logic of this, I have to say it would be a sad world if no one preserved stock from more recent times. Imagine if no one had preserved the old BR era steam locos and coaching stock because they weren't from the Big Four. At the end of the day, familiarity and ubiquity breed contempt. Thirty or forty years from now people may well lament they lost opportunities. You only have to look at the modern projects to recreate extinct unsuccessful diesel loco classes of the 1950s, or even a lost steam engine class aka Tornado.
Also worth bearing in mind, the future of steam railways is very much uncertain, with regards to the move to zero emissions in upcoming decades. Perhaps diesels will fair better being slightly 'cleaner' than steam locos.
All that said though, I totally take the point that given a choice between a pacer or steam train, the general public will no doubt pick the latter.
Bertie the bus
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I completely agree that preserving traction from each era is worthwhile. That also extends to a couple of Pacers. Some lines have preserved them and good luck to them. What I don't agree with though is that the Ribble Steam Railway, the East Lancs, Keighley and others must preserve one because they operated in the area. Many heritage lines have DMUs for off-peak running days and a Pacer could fit the bill for some lines but many others, including the K&WVR already have some.
Ploughman
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anamyd
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Dispensation, derogation and determination are different types of exemption from compliance with law (I haven't yet properly looked into the difference between them).
According to the Persons with Reduced Mobility - Technical Specifications for Interoperability non-compliance dispensation letters from the Department for Transport, Northern are allowed to run their remaining 24 142s (they had 79 at the start of 2019) until 31/5/20 but only coupled to compliant (modified) 15x units, Transport for Wales are allowed to run their 15 142s and 15 143s until 31/7/20 without any restrictions, Northern are allowed to run their 23 144s until 31/8/20 but only on specified routes, and Great Western Railway are allowed to run their 8 143s until 31/12/20 but only coupled to compliant (modified) 15x units.
Derogation on the other hand, I believe is a more permanent thing, such as the DfT derogation letters for a couple of 170 subclasses that state that they need not comply with one or two minor things, but without a time limit / expiration date, so ever.
Need to look into determination.
reddragon
Established Member
142040April 1986
reddragon
Established Member
And for Western fans
reddragon
Established Member
Lastly a 143.003 in Carlisle
trainmania100
Established Member
What a hideous looking thing that 140, very well captured. Lovely seeing all these unique units from the past, personally I'd never even seen anything look like that before
anamyd
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I believe that the 140 is in preservation, and is one of few Pacers to retain its original Leyland engines and SCG gearboxes, along with 141108 and single-car RB004.
sprinterguy
Established Member
Yes I agree that Pacers aren't particularly relevant to the day to day running of the established preserved lines, being of no more utility than the first gen diesel units which these lines already own, which are typically used for operational convenience during the low season and/or wheeled out during special events such as diesel galas. Pacers, being products of the eighties, potentially even less so as they're not contemporary with the 1950s infrastructure and atmosphere being recreated by most major preserved lines.
As such Pacers might well find more use on shorter or less well established preserved lines which have been the primary takers to date. However I would have thought that individuals or preservation groups would be more inclined to purchase stock that has local relevance, particularly if it was synonymous with memories of their youth thirty years ago. Historically, this is the sort of thinking that has informed motive power policy on preserved lines.
Another unit of Pacer lineage that's found itself far from the beaten track of its operational area, even for the widely travelled prototype unit: Being located at the Keith and Dufftown Railway, making it the most northerly located Leyland railbus by a long way!
As stated 142’s still work into Sheffield but in the late evening services from Manchester Piccadilly. 142078 was coupled to a 150 last night working the 2049 from Manchester and the 2247 return , Good luck
IamTrainsYT
Member
Heaton to gascoigne wood today most likely to be 142040 and 142063 and 142067 as they are the last 3 142s northern have That they are not keeping till may
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Wolvercoter
Member
And 142040 perhaps?
IamTrainsYT
Member
Oops missed that one out, thanks for telling me
Killingworth
Established Member
And if you'd been on it you might have had it almost to yourself! I chose the leading, and supposedly compliant 150141, on my own. The toilet was out of use.
It is almost 52 years ago that BR ran it's last steam train in service. Therefore, anyone who remembers them in service and can relate to them will be nearly 60 years old. I have no interest whatsoever in steam engines apart from collecting models of them. I certainly wouldn't pay to ride on one. A preserved Class 108 DMU or Pacer, yes. My mum also hated travelling on steam trains due to their chugging action and filth.
It was mentioned on a previous post that it would hardly be appropriate for a preserved railway to have a Pacer on display at a 1940s weekend. Whilst true, it needs to be remembered that anyone who remembers the 1940s will be in their mid 70s at least. I have had no interest in 1940s weekends that I've been to. I'd enjoy a 1970s weekend or pushing it a 1960s weekend but nothing earlier.
As the older generations die out, preserved railways need to acquire newer rolling stock that younger generations remember and can relate too. Otherwise, they will become irrelevant to them. Even a lot of younger people will not know what a First generation DMU is.
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IamTrainsYT
Member
Heaton to gascoigne wood has left. Anyone confirm it’s 040, 063, 067?
Bertie the bus
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No they don't. The majority of heritage lines' income comes from people who know nothing about trains who want a day out. Kids like steam trains because they are given Thomas the Tank Engine books. Heritage railways are not about people being able to relate to the trains they ride on.
Rail preservation is a wider subject than heritage rail operations but even then most items of modern traction are preserved because the people preserving them, those who put up the money and those who spend their time restoring them, relate to them, not the wider general public.
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