• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Class 710 LO

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,396
And there’s little chance of further additional units being tagged onto the order? As far as I understand, the use of a Class 710 on the Romford-Upminster has been eschewed in favour of retaining two Class 315s, but the 710 that is freed up won’t be used on West Anglia?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,354
And there’s little chance of further additional units being tagged onto the order? As far as I understand, the use of a Class 710 on the Romford-Upminster has been eschewed in favour of retaining two Class 315s, but the 710 that is freed up won’t be used on West Anglia?
Goblin is being extended to Barking Riverside currently.

The problems include platform lengths and dwell times so the cheapest solution was to alter the interior layout rather than start lengthening platforms and trains.
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,396
Goblin is being extended to Barking Riverside currently.

The problems include platform lengths and dwell times so the cheapest solution was to alter the interior layout rather than start lengthening platforms and trains.

Ah I see. For Barking Riverside I think they’ve purchased two more 710/2s?
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
6,830
I believe perceived capacity issues - the fleet size is not expanding (31 trains being replaced with 31) so the only additional capacity the line will get is by increasing the capacity of the units themselves - all-longitudinal allows a higher total passenger capacity, even if that means most are standing.

Cheaper for TfL to have one common fleet of 710s too, and also gives more operational flexibility.

I wouldn't be entirely impressed if I was commuting in from further out though, and it looks odd that passengers on the similar lines to Moorgate get 717s with transverse seating instead, while the other West Anglia services will get trains with 5 abreast transverse seating (720s)
 

samuelmorris

Established Member
Joined
18 Jul 2013
Messages
5,121
Location
Brentwood, Essex
Cheaper for TfL to have one common fleet of 710s too, and also gives more operational flexibility.

I wouldn't be entirely impressed if I was commuting in from further out though, and it looks odd that passengers on the similar lines to Moorgate get 717s with transverse seating instead, while the other West Anglia services will get trains with 5 abreast transverse seating (720s)
The furthest station that needs a 710 from Liverpool St though I believe is Theobalds Grove at 35 mins. There are so few transverse seats on the 345s that you're currently down to longitudinals by Harold Wood at busy times (also 35 mins from Liverpool Street) on that route. 717s, however, can be used for journeys significantly longer than that.
 

transmanche

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
6,018
I wouldn't be entirely impressed if I was commuting in from further out though
Although it's only about a half-hour journey, even if travelling all the way from Enfield Town or Chingford to Liverpool St. And significant numbers transfer to the Victoria line at Walthamstow and Seven Sisters, making the LO part pf their journey even shorter.
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,396
Cheaper for TfL to have one common fleet of 710s too, and also gives more operational flexibility.

I was under the impression that the West Anglia 710/1s wouldn’t be fitted with third rail shoes.
 

20atthemagnet

Member
Joined
1 Feb 2019
Messages
201
Location
England
Will these be 2 units operting together or as two training trips each unit on their own?

Its it’s highly probable they will deliver an 8 car. No details have emerged on what will be delivered, just that there will be something and training will definitely be starting.
 
Last edited:

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,396
Neither will the GOBLIN ones presumably

The Goblin fleet was always planned to be fitted with shoes as they’ll be based at Willesden and operated in a common pool with the Watford units.
 

87015

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2006
Messages
4,901
Location
GEML/WCML/SR
The Goblin fleet was always planned to be fitted with shoes as they’ll be based at Willesden and operated in a common pool with the Watford units.
Needing shoes for access to Willesden TMD via Low Level is as much if not more of a driver as you could have had two dedicated fleets given how similar the work is.
 
Last edited:

20atthemagnet

Member
Joined
1 Feb 2019
Messages
201
Location
England
Finally some progress on the WA lines with 710 Training and rollout.

Indeed. Although removal of the 315/317s wont happen until the training programme is either complete or near complete. So full deployment is still a way off yet. But as soon as a dozen or so drivers are trained nothing to stop 2 or 3 entering service next month with the 315/317s on diagrams they replace reverting to spares. Thats the plan anyway.
 

PizzaKing52

Member
Joined
11 Apr 2019
Messages
10
Indeed. Although removal of the 315/317s wont happen until the training programme is either complete or near complete. So full deployment is still a way off yet. But as soon as a dozen or so drivers are trained nothing to stop 2 or 3 entering service next month with the 315/317s on diagrams they replace reverting to spares. Thats the plan anyway.
When the 710's do enter service on the West Anglia, will there be any diagrams to let us know what time the new trains will be out during the day? Like the Class 717s.
 

ijmad

Established Member
Joined
7 Jan 2016
Messages
1,810
Location
UK
I believe perceived capacity issues - the fleet size is not expanding (31 trains being replaced with 31) so the only additional capacity the line will get is by increasing the capacity of the units themselves - all-longitudinal allows a higher total passenger capacity, even if that means most are standing.

Runtime improvements might free up a few trains though?

I saw some FOIs that suggested TfL wanted 3-4tph to Enfield Town and Cheshunt, at least in the peaks, and the suggestion was these would run to Seven Sisters and reverse using the chord. However I believe this has been shelved due to budget constraints. Some folks here previously criticised the practicality of this suggestion, but I'm just the messenger, I'll find the actual FOI that described this if anyone is interested.
 
Last edited:

20atthemagnet

Member
Joined
1 Feb 2019
Messages
201
Location
England
When the 710's do enter service on the West Anglia, will there be any diagrams to let us know what time the new trains will be out during the day? Like the Class 717s.

Indeed, expect late Jan those STPs will surface. But as with the GOB the initial Driver training runs will be ECS.
 

samuelmorris

Established Member
Joined
18 Jul 2013
Messages
5,121
Location
Brentwood, Essex
Runtime improvements might free up a few trains though?

I saw some FOIs that suggested TfL wanted 3-4tph to Enfield Town and Cheshunt, at least in the peaks, and the suggestion was these would run to Seven Sisters and reverse using the chord. However I believe this has been shelved due to budget constraints. Some folks here previously criticised the practicality of this suggestion, but I'm just the messenger, I'll find the actual FOI that described this if anyone is interested.
I'm not aware of any significant runtime benefits being advertised, due to slots into Liverpool Street? Certainly not any that would reduce the number of units required to run a service.
 

ijmad

Established Member
Joined
7 Jan 2016
Messages
1,810
Location
UK
I'm not aware of any significant runtime benefits being advertised, due to slots into Liverpool Street? Certainly not any that would reduce the number of units required to run a service.

Fair enough! A shame though, passengers would surely enjoy a quicker journey in to Central London, Enfield Chase to Moorgate is booked for a good six minutes less than Enfield Town to Liverpool Street.
 

transmanche

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
6,018
Fair enough! A shame though, passengers would surely enjoy a quicker journey in to Central London, Enfield Chase to Moorgate is booked for a good six minutes less than Enfield Town to Liverpool Street.
They look very similar to me. Picking two random peak services:
Enfield Town dep 07:53 Liverpool Street arr 08:31 - 38 mins
Enfield Chase dep 07:57 Moorgate arr 08:34 - 37 mins

(The Moorgate route is about 1/2 mile shorter and I think has 1 less stop en route.)
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,396
I saw some FOIs that suggested TfL wanted 3-4tph to Enfield Town and Cheshunt, at least in the peaks, and the suggestion was these would run to Seven Sisters and reverse using the chord. However I believe this has been shelved due to budget constraints. Some folks here previously criticised the practicality of this suggestion, but I'm just the messenger, I'll find the actual FOI that described this if anyone is interested.

Forgive my ignorance, but why would using the chord require reversal?
 

ivzem

Member
Joined
15 Aug 2019
Messages
50
Location
Potsdam, Germany
Forgive my ignorance, but why would using the chord require reversal?
I think what is meant is that trains would use the chord to reverse without getting in the way of trains to and from Liverpool Street. They would enter it, but only run a short distance up it then reverse and return to the northbound platform.
 

BJames

Established Member
Joined
27 Jan 2018
Messages
1,359
I think what is meant is that trains would use the chord to reverse without getting in the way of trains to and from Liverpool Street. They would enter it, but only run a short distance up it then reverse and return to the northbound platform.
Correct. You can see this here:
http://carto.metro.free.fr/cartes/metro-tram-london/index.php?station=seven-sisters

However, as noted above anyway this isn't the plan anymore. All the slots into Liverpool Street in the peak are full, so any increase in flexibility would only be considered off peak I believe - happy to be corrected - although I must say that 3tph at Bush Hill Park off-peak would certainly be welcome.

Thanks for all the updates with 710s, very excited to see these in action on this line.
 

87015

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2006
Messages
4,901
Location
GEML/WCML/SR
I think what is meant is that trains would use the chord to reverse without getting in the way of trains to and from Liverpool Street. They would enter it, but only run a short distance up it then reverse and return to the northbound platform.
It’s not long enough to reverse on, complete non-starter. Any extra peak trains need serious money spending on additional infrastructure.
 

ijmad

Established Member
Joined
7 Jan 2016
Messages
1,810
Location
UK
Well, anyway, since there's some questioning of this, here's the FOI:
Subject to agreement with National Rail and availability of funding for new rolling stock, we plan to increase service levels between London Liverpool Street and Enfield Town from 4 trains per hour during peak periods and 2 trains per hour off-peak to 4 trains per hour all day with the addition of a 2 trains per hour shuttle between Seven Sisters and Enfield Town in the Peak (07:30-09:30 and 16:30-19:30) in May 2019. The additional shuttle services in the peak would require the use of the chord connecting the Tottenham & Hampstead and Southbury lines as a turn-back.

This plan has subsequently been dropped, as confirmed by more recent FOIs.

I expect the mods will clout us for getting off topic, so I won't distract us any further.
 

87015

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2006
Messages
4,901
Location
GEML/WCML/SR
Wasn’t questioning that they wanted it, just it was nonsense from the start in the real world.

Wouldn’t be surprised if the change in seating came after it because realised...?
 

20atthemagnet

Member
Joined
1 Feb 2019
Messages
201
Location
England
Forgive my ignorance, but why would using the chord require reversal?[/]

Just a loose choice of words for changing ends.
It’s not long enough to reverse on, complete non-starter. Any extra peak trains need serious money spending on additional infrastructure.

Perfectly possible for a 4car but not an 8, done several times during greater Anglia’s period during engineering works. But requires you to be pretty much on top of the signal at the bottom of the chord to be able to change ends and be to see the one at the top to take you back in seven sisters. However with the slightly added length of 710s and new signal sighting guidelines it would make it nearly impossible make it something that wasn’t considered out of course. Many WA 710 stop boards have had to be moved for this very reason, and also why Stamford Hilll is going to be SDO for both directions for an 8 and both down lines at H Downs.

As you quite rightly point out real world is something quite different! :lol:
 
Last edited:

ijmad

Established Member
Joined
7 Jan 2016
Messages
1,810
Location
UK
It occurs to me that one way of achieving 4tph all day on the Enfield/Cheshunt routes would be to split/join trains at Edmonton Green. Obviously this provides no extra capacity but would improve convenience. Is the 710 set up so it could split/join in service in the future, for this or other reasons?
 

Top