Northern's removal of Advance fares from selected stations (also affecting sale tickets)

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-10p-tickets.197925/

yorkie said:

Are northern willing to let you start short?

I recall they once told passengers from somewhere like Sabdbach they could start short (perhaps @Puffing Devil may recall this?)

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Indeed, I did have an email conversation with them in 2017 when they withdrew the Advances from Goostrey (and others). This was their reply (my bold):

Obviously the "not used much" comment is total BS. The permission was valuable, though. Unfortunately, this "loophole" will most likely die along with the Northern Franchise.

I have used advances on this line a few times since, I've never had an issue starting or ending short.

Puffing Devil said:

Unfortunately on some lines advance tickets were taken off due to them not being used as much.
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Obviously the "not used much" comment is total BS.

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That is also what they told me, I certainly used them a decent amount from Congleton, and the promotion of such tickets in 2017 was magnitudes less than now. (Youtube ads, adverts on realtimetrains, large posters at stations)

Ah yes I remember the northern advance tickets from congleton now. At least some other stations in the area are doing the 10p tickets.

Blinkbonny said:

I like the sound of "Scarbados" and have also got tickets.

I expect however that the reality might prove to be a little bit more "bracing!"

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You could always try Ponte Carlo or Cas Vegas instead

agbrs_Jack said:

That is also what they told me, I certainly used them a decent amount from Congleton, and the promotion of such tickets in 2017 was magnitudes less than now. (Youtube ads, adverts on realtimetrains, large posters at stations)

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Trainfan2019 said:

Ah yes I remember the northern advance tickets from Congleton now. At least some other stations in the area are doing the 10p tickets.

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Funny how they only pulled the tickets from stations with no competition.

Puffing Devil said:

Funny how they only pulled the tickets from stations with no competition.

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Yes interesting that!
They also told me that stations have either advances OR Duo and not both and since Congleton has Duo we don't get advances.
- Duo isn't as good as advances
- Macclesfield and Blackpool (as a couple examples) have both Duo and Advances
And despite promises from a Northern manager over a year ago to reintroduce them, still nothing! (least they can do considering the infinite delay to a usable Sunday service!)

Not even consistent:
Hebden Bridge has advances to Blackpool which is practically entirely northern with very little competition.

I've noticed Northern are selling 10p advances on the 1644 Manchester Picc to Stoke, which is rammed as far as Congleton with normal priced fares!

Simple abuse of monopoly...

Northern don't really have a monopoly on anything, as there's always another way to get wherever you're going. While I don't suppose the people who decide what tickets Northern offer talk all that much to the customer service people, as far as I can tell there are neither Northern advance tickets nor duo tickets from (for example) Bamber Bridge.

kieron said:

As far as I can tell there are neither Northern advance tickets nor duo tickets from (for example) Bamber Bridge.

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Bamber Bridge has duo, but not advances. Rufford (before you changed it to Bamber Bridge, has Duo as well).

Congleton has nearly 4 times Bamber Bridge's passenger usage figures
Congleton has over 18 times Rufford's passenger usage figures

Again, Congleton used to have such advance tickets which were quietly removed with suspicious reasoning...

agbrs_Jack said:

Bamber Bridge has duo, but not advances. Rufford (before you changed it to Bamber Bridge, has Duo as well).

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Sorry, I was looking at stations where you can get Duo tickets to from somewhere else, rather than also ones which only had Duo tickets starting from them. In terms of stations which don't have them in either direction, you're looking at stations between Huddersfield & Barnley, between Lancaster/Skipton and Carlisle, and a few stations in Yorkshire.

Some have advance tickets in the sale, some don't. It doesn't seem that there are either for Pontefract, though.

kieron said:

Sorry, I was looking at stations where you can get Duo tickets to from somewhere else, rather than also ones which only had Duo tickets starting from them. In terms of stations which don't have them in either direction, you're looking at stations between Huddersfield & Barnley, between Lancaster/Skipton and Carlisle, and a few stations in Yorkshire.

Some have advance tickets in the sale, some don't. It doesn't seem that there are either for Pontefract, though.

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I don't just mean the sale, I mean at all.

Congleton is busier than all 3 Pontefract stations combined.

Northern offered 10p advance tickets on every route the offered advance tickets in last year's sale. I can't yet check if they've done the same this time, but it follows the same pattern from what I've seen. Unless you know differently?

kieron said:

Northern offered 10p advance tickets on every route the offered advance tickets in last year's sale. I can't yet check if they've done the same this time, but it follows the same pattern from what I've seen. Unless you know differently?

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They offer 10p tickets on routes they offer advance tickets yes.
They do not offer advance tickets for Congleton, they removed them sneakily in 2017.

agbrs_Jack said:

Again, Congleton used to have such advance tickets which were quietly removed with suspicious reasoning...

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"Suspicious reasoning" = Private company making rational commercial decision on product it is under absolualtely no obligation to offer, I would presume.

[Apologies for supermarket analogy]: You wouldn't call it "suspicious reasoning" if Tesco ended a Buy One Get One Free offer on Baked Beans, would you...?

Ianno87 said:

"Suspicious reasoning" = Private company making rational commercial decision on product it is under absolualtely no obligation to offer, I would presume.

[Apologies for supermarket analogy]: You wouldn't call it "suspicious reasoning" if Tesco ended a Buy One Get One Free offer on Baked Beans, would you...?

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What was sneaky about it was that when this was happening (Hebden Bridge was affected at the same time) their website had a news story about how they were increasing the scope of advance tickets. No mention of the removal from many stations. Another example of their “half the story” approach to PR.

Ianno87 said:

"Suspicious reasoning" = Private company making rational commercial decision on product it is under absolualtely no obligation to offer, I would presume.

[Apologies for supermarket analogy]: You wouldn't call it "suspicious reasoning" if Tesco ended a Buy One Get One Free offer on Baked Beans, would you...?

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Rubbish analogy. Getting 2 cans of beans for price of 1 is completely different to a service that is rammed every day with some people paying £16 and some paying £5 for a longer journey. If it was a frequent service then fine but it isn't. They offer a lower price for MAC and SOT customers because they might get Avanti or XC which would lower their revenue. To be selling 10p (or even £2.80!) tickets on the always rammed 1644 off Man Picc is absurd.

A better analogy would be a nationwide supermarket selling a can of beans for £5 (or 10p!), unless you are from Congleton, then you have to pay £16+

And the suspicious reasoning is the total lie that usage of the fares was low.
As I said previously, advertising for said fares is now far better too.

Thanks for moving the thread.

SteveM70 said:

Hebden Bridge was affected at the same time)

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Hebden Bridge still has some advance tickets

agbrs_Jack said:

Hebden Bridge still has some advance tickets

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Yes. But to far fewer destinations than previously

The problem with analogies is that it's very difficult to get the right one.

The issue here is that Northern have removed loads of Advance fares for journeys where, perhaps there is less (or no) competition from other operators.

It's often the case that it is cheaper to make a journey that has competition than doesn't, e.g. Birmingham to London may be cheaper than High Wycombe to London (even on the same train); Milton Keynes to London may be cheaper than Milton Keynes to Harrow & Wealdstone (again you could be on the same train) and many more examples.

You are effectively able to get more of something for less. If we are looking to compare with supermarkets, then it's difficult to get the analogy to work but it's a bit like saying that a bigger bottle of water costs LESS than a smaller bottle containing less of the exact same water.

If Northern are happy for Congleton passengers to start or finish short, then I think that analogy isn't far off.

However if Northern say that Congleton passengers cannot do this, then that does indeed create a situation where you cannot buy 'more' of something than you need; a suitable analogy there may well be to say that Tesco (or whoever) charges a lot more for the same water from their Congleton store than another nearby store.

As Northern have stated that people are allowed to start/finish short in a letter to @Puffing Devil then unless we become aware of a change of policy, it looks like the solution is for Congleton passengers need to be made aware of this so that they do not pay a premium just because they use Congleton station.

(and when I say Congleton, I am just going with that as an example; the same issue occurs elsewhere with hundreds of other stations)

yorkie said:

As Northern have stated that people are allowed to start/finish short in a letter to @Puffing Devil then Congleton passengers need to be made aware of this so that they do not pay a premium just because they use Congleton station.

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What concerns me with this is that:
A) The letter is in regard to Sandbach, therefore not granting any such permission to Congleton passengers
B) Northern take weeks if not months to reply to any such emails
C) If commuters started using tickets from Stoke, the passenger usage figures would plummet as Congleton wouldn't be counted (I am expecting them to drop on Tuesday anyway.. (thanks RMT))
D) Even if northern gave permission, would this be made clear to any on board staff, considering it is a penalty fare route also, the last thing I would want is innocent passengers getting in false trouble.

I asked Northern's twitter team for permission to go Congleton - Stoke on a Macclesfield - Stoke advance the last time the 10p sale was on. They blankly refused.

agbrs_Jack said:

What concerns me with this is that:
A) The letter is in regard to Sandbach, therefore not granting any such permission to Congleton passengers
B) Northern take weeks if not months to reply to any such emails
C) If commuters started using tickets from Stoke, the passenger usage figures would plummet as Congleton wouldn't be counted (I am expecting them to drop on Tuesday anyway.. (thanks RMT))
D) Even if northern gave permission, would this be made clear to any on board staff, considering it is a penalty fare route also, the last thing I would want is innocent passengers getting in false trouble.

I asked Northern's twitter team for permission to go Congleton - Stoke on a Macclesfield - Stoke advance the last time the 10p sale was on. They blankly refused.

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1) The same principle should apply, however you do need to be careful to avoid wording any follow-up request in a manner that invites a negative response
2) Are commuters likely to switch to Advance tickets? Maybe people who would otherwise buy weekly tickets may do during the sale (if they are available at those times) but in general I expect not
3) The numbers doing this would surely be very small anyway
4) You cannot get a Penalty Fare for starting or finishing short
5) The Twitter team are not likely to give an answer that favours the customer! They have told people who are entitled to compensation that they are not, told people valid tickets are invalid, and all sorts.

As you were told by Northern you can't use Advance fares from Congleton, I would stick to that.

Puffing Devil does have authority to travel on Advance fares from Goostrey though.

Sometimes you need to be careful how, and who, you ask...

agbrs_Jack said:

What concerns me with this is that:
A) The letter is in regard to Sandbach, therefore not granting any such permission to Congleton passengers
B) Northern take weeks if not months to reply to any such emails
C) If commuters started using tickets from Stoke, the passenger usage figures would plummet as Congleton wouldn't be counted (I am expecting them to drop on Tuesday anyway.. (thanks RMT))
D) Even if northern gave permission, would this be made clear to any on board staff, considering it is a penalty fare route also, the last thing I would want is innocent passengers getting in false trouble.

I asked Northern's twitter team for permission to go Congleton - Stoke on a Macclesfield - Stoke advance the last time the 10p sale was on. They blankly refused.

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The email I had would in no way have passed QA if anyone with ticketing knowledge has seen it. For once, the error was in favour of the commuter.

That said, my usual usage of Northern to travel into Manchester is next to nil as

1. I found driving cheaper and easier to visit the football thanks to being forced onto the road during the strike weekends
2. The service has become an unreliable joke, meaning that driving and parking in Manchester is now my preferred option.

I also drive and park in Crewe for the majority of my work trips, cutting out NR altogether; if the connection is arbitrarily cancelled I'm then an hour or more late into a very tight day.

I'm now wary of any time-critical journey that involves NR - Footy, Theatre, Work, etc. I've also passed on a couple of Forum events because of the risk of late-night strandings and the inevitable hassle afterwards.

Regarding the removal of advances - it was a commercial decision to increase revenue at those stations where passengers had no alternative rail service - that is the abuse of a monopoly position.

When I was looking for a nice outing to use the latest 10p tickets, I decided Lancaster would be the place to go. Have to change at Wigan from Southport. Couldn’t find any 10p ticket all the way. Couldn’t find any 10p tickets to Wigan. Ended up with Duo Southport to Wigan and back, on 2 cardboard tickets, and four 10p tickets from there to Lancaster and back which involved 8 coupons! Maybe the route from Southport no longer has Advances.