Girl upset at being forced to stay on until next stop on Limited Stop service

Geordie driver · 8 Jan 2020

Whatever the driver does, someone will pick it to pieces, often someone who has never been in that position. People try it on all the time,it's in some peoples nature. If the driver doesn't let her off and she complains he is in the wrong, if the driver does let her off and someone else complains, he is in the wrong.

This is why so many drivers just please themselves.

RailUK Forums

NorthOxonian · 8 Jan 2020

While it may not have been helpful given how late at night this case happened, at least in Gateshead, nearly all limited stop routes have parallel routes which call at all stops, so having similar relief routes could help. For example, the 25 and X1 only call at the QE Hospital and Wrekenton on the way out of town, but the 56 and a few others running all stops along Old Durham Road. There's a similar situation with the X70 too (97 runs alongside it), and to a lesser extent with the X21 and 21 (the X21 only stops once between Gateshead and Chester-le-Street). Though in the case of the latter route, they're now making it stop at all stops between Chester-le-Street and Durham, probably in response to complaints of this nature.

Mwanesh · 8 Jan 2020

I used to ask where people were going but always get told just drive the bus. So most drivers dont ask.Its difficult dealing with the public and the law. I left it due to constant abuse.

ejstubbs · 8 Jan 2020

NorthOxonian said:
While it may not have been helpful given how late at night this case happened

Do we know that it was late at night? AFAICS the OP merely said that it was dark. At this time of year it's dark by 5pm (Met Office says sunset up here in Edinburgh was at 15:59 today). That's hardly "late at night"; it's more like normal heading home time for many people, including secondary school kids - especially if they've had an after school class of some kind (I think most schools did go back on Monday this week).

Which isn't to say that the incident didn't actually take place late at night. But simply because it was dark doesn't, at this time of year, mean that it did.

Busaholic · 8 Jan 2020

richw said:
and then a different driver does the same tomorrow, and another driver the day after and so on. There’s then a repeated breach of the registration, potentially being observed by authorities.

Are you suggesting that the 12 year old girl is being used by the Traffic Commissioners to test out whether buses are potentially breaching a regulation, as an underage person might be used in an off licence? I would suggest that is fantastical, to say the least.

richw · 8 Jan 2020

Busaholic said:
Are you suggesting that the 12 year old girl is being used by the Traffic Commissioners to test out whether buses are potentially breaching a regulation, as an underage person might be used in an off licence? I would suggest that is fantastical, to say the least.

the 12 year old girl wouldn’t be not at all what I was saying. But it only takes someone observing to report you, and boom your in breach. Where rival operators are in the same area across the same patch they’ll regularly report each other. For example operator A does the limited stop. Operator B does a regular stopping service along the same roads. Operator B will go to town if operator A is stopping more than their limited Stop registration allows.

Ianno87 · 8 Jan 2020

cnjb8 said:
Well, maybe the driver could have dropped her off once and told her not to do it again.

One week later: "But the driver let me off there last week!"

RJ · 8 Jan 2020

I used to drive the 607 in London and got people wanting intermediate stops all the time. In my experience the passengers were extremely quick to shout down anybody giving the driver grief for not making a special stop for them and thus the problem usually took care of itself. The stops aren't that far apart anyway.

12 year old...use common sense and let them off. Explain that it's a limited stop service and look out for them in future in case they make the same mistake. Come on what's wrong with people?

PeterC · 8 Jan 2020

RJ said:
I used to drive the 607 in London and got people wanting intermediate stops all the time. In my experience the passengers were extremely quick to shout down anybody giving the driver grief for not making a special stop for them and thus the problem usually took care of itself. The stops aren't that far apart anyway.

12 year old...use common sense and let them off. Explain that it's a limited stop service and look out for them in future in case they make the same mistake. Come on what's wrong with people?

I have heard of passengers of TfL rail replacement buses expecting to be let off at intermediate stops as well.

In this case we don't have all the facts. Did she ring the bell or assume that the bus would stop? How far in advance of the stop was the bell rung? Did she move to the front before the stop or stay seated? Did she make her need to alight clear on passing her stop or when the bus actually stopped? We don't know and there are plenty of cases of bells being rung in error now that they are normally below shoulder level rather than up near the roof.

Statto · 8 Jan 2020

I was on a southbound X68 in London one evening, passenger on the X68, mistook it for a normal 68 & wanting to get off on Walworth Road, Elephant & Castle end, next stop on the X68 after Waterloo is West Norwood, driver eventually let the passenger off, but well after the stop they wanted.

It's a tricky one, insurance reasons are why drivers wont let anyone off except at authorized stops, that includes express routes, the driver could well be disciplined if they let the girl off at the stop when the route doesn't stop there, & something happened to the girl

RJ · 8 Jan 2020

Statto said:
It's a tricky one, insurance reasons are why drivers wont let anyone off except at authorized stops, that includes express routes, the driver could well be disciplined if they let the girl off at the stop when the route doesn't stop there, & something happened to the girl

This insurance excuse - is it actually true or an urban myth? Aside from a lot of operators self insuring for claims below a certain level, I've never seen anything to support this claim that has been floating around for years. In London, TfL have authorised drivers to let passengers off the bus between stops if it is safe to do so and there are many hail and ride sections where there are no bus stops.

AnkleBoots · 8 Jan 2020

ejstubbs said:
Do we know that it was late at night? AFAICS the OP merely said that it was dark.

It was about 8:50pm

AnkleBoots · 8 Jan 2020

PeterC said:
Did she ring the bell or assume that the bus would stop? How far in advance of the stop was the bell rung? Did she move to the front before the stop or stay seated? Did she make her need to alight clear on passing her stop or when the bus actually stopped?

She rang the bell, in plenty of time for the stop she wanted. She moved forward to the front. She made her need clear upon passing the stop.

It was clear she wasn't trying it on, she genuinely didn't know - 90% of buses passing that stop do stop there so it's understandable.

RJ · 8 Jan 2020

PeterC said:
I have heard of passengers of TfL rail replacement buses expecting to be let off at intermediate stops as well.

Yes - some people take the bus knowing it's effectively free, then distract the driver whilst the bus is moving to demand an extra stop is made for them. Some drivers just let them off for an easy life, others won't. Personally I announce the next stop at every single calling point. I can see the people who want to try taking the mick coming in the gangway mirror whilst I'm driving and prepare myself to repeat to them where the next stop is if within the London area. I really miss those buses that had the visor that you could pull across the cab door as I used to put it to good use when I saw those people coming. The problem is if you do it once, people see that and from experience they will keep on coming and starting arguments as to why they don't get the same privilege - and an on board revolt is not conducive to a safe driving environment.

However if in somewhere in the home counties on a rainy Sunday night and someone has had the manners to approach me whilst stopped at a calling point to request I drop them somewhere convenient, I may well show discretion. In London, I will probably say no and advise them of an alternative route that serves where they want to go.

RJ · 8 Jan 2020

AnkleBoots said:
She rang the bell, in plenty of time for the stop she wanted. She moved forward to the front. She made her need clear upon passing the stop.

It was clear she wasn't trying it on, she genuinely didn't know - 90% of buses passing that stop do stop there so it's understandable.

The fact she rang the bell and alerted the driver would suggest she had made a genuine mistake with the service she boarded. It happens. Any company that would publicly support a driver not being sympathetic to a 12 year old girl at night in these circumstances deserves the roasting on social media and the press they're likely to get to be honest. They should brief the drivers on how to handle these situations during training.

158756 · 9 Jan 2020

RJ said:
This insurance excuse - is it actually true or an urban myth? Aside from a lot of operators self insuring for claims below a certain level, I've never seen anything to support this claim that has been floating around for years. In London, TfL have authorised drivers to let passengers off the bus between stops if it is safe to do so and there are many hail and ride sections where there are no bus stops.

Don't know about insurance, but if the girl was run over crossing the road or someone crashed into the bus at this unauthorised stop the driver certainly isn't going to be employee of the month.

richw · 9 Jan 2020

RJ said:
This insurance excuse - is it actually true or an urban myth?

It’s Complete rubbish. Third party cover has to be in place at 100% of the time and 100% of usage. Public liability etc not just motor insurance

RJ · 9 Jan 2020

richw said:
It’s Complete rubbish. Third party cover has to be in place at 100% of the time and 100% of usage. Public liability etc not just motor insurance

Yes - I know that as I'm a transport manager and have my own bus operating licence but I'm always keen to hear if these things are backed up by anything in writing!

I take a very customer oriented approach in all my work and think that staff being empowered to do so makes it easier for them to interact with the public and avoid disputes and negative publicity. As a driver myself, sometimes it's best to just tell people where the next stop is and other times it's best to use discretion. But under no circumstances would I think it's ok to treat a young child in the way described by the OP.

Flying Snail · 9 Jan 2020

richw said:
It’s Complete rubbish. Third party cover has to be in place at 100% of the time and 100% of usage. Public liability etc not just motor insurance

It's not that clear cut. Insurance cover will be there but liability will be different if an accident happens at a bus stop or an unauthorised place. Someone trips getting off a bus properly placed at an authorised stop and the liability from the bus operator will be nil or low, possibly the council will be held at fault if the stop is poorly maintained or the passenger will be unable to successfully pursue a claim against either party. Letting someone off at at a traffic light or other place will make a case against the bus company easier to win. An in-use bus stop but one not on the route in question falls somewhere in between, with the rank stupidity of the legal system it is not unreasonable to suggest that the stop not being authorised for that route would be used as an excuse to pursue a claim against the driver and bus company.

In the case at hand, as a driver who has had all sorts of requests to be let out away from listed stops I would agree with RJ, I wouldn't be intentionally over-carrying a child even if it was the wrong stop. With the additional info the OP has added, that it was just the bell rung initially it is possible that the driver was unaware the child wanted the wrong stop until he had actually driven past it in which case it was a judgement call on continuing to the correct stop or letting the girl out away from a stop.

RJ · 9 Jan 2020

Ianno87 said:
One week later: "But the driver let me off there last week!"

Then let them off, again. And if the driver recognises them when they board, ensure they intend to get off at an advertised calling point.

Mitchell Hurd · 9 Jan 2020

I understand there's different points of view on here. However, maybe the 12-year-old forgot or didn't realise it was a limited stop.

If I was driving (which I don't) I'd have much rather dropped the 12-year-old at the stop she needed before going to the next scheduled bus stop on the limited stop service - no person that age should be forced to walk some distance!

arbeia · 9 Jan 2020

And if the same thing had happened on a train? So why different when it's a bus.

221129 · 9 Jan 2020

The concept of limited stop buses isnt new or unusual in Edinburgh. They all have it written on the front and side...

richw · 9 Jan 2020

My previous posts were reference to doing things by the book and keeping the TC happy.
Using common sense, duty or care to a minor etc I would take on a case by case basis, location of next stop, is it within a built up urban area or rural countryside. Out in the countryside many stops aren’t marked, and more likely to stop somewhere safe than in town where the next stop isn’t far away.

ejstubbs · 9 Jan 2020

Mitchell Hurd said:
no person that age should be forced to walk some distance

The OP said she was taken about half a mile out of her way. I used to walk twice that distance and more to primary school until I was ten years old, morning and evening five days a week*. I'd say it is far from unreasonable to expect a twelve-year old to walk an extra half mile purely because of the distance.

However, the OP has now clarified that, as well the incident occurring during the hours of darkness, it was getting close to the "watershed" hour of 9pm. I think that does make a difference pretty much regardless of the distance.

221129 said:
The concept of limited stop buses isnt new or unusual in Edinburgh. They all have it written on the front and side...

The OP did say that the bus in the incident under discussion was marked as being a limited stop service.

I have made the mistake myself once, when the 15 was withdrawn and started running as the X15 all the time. As soon as the driver told me, after I rang the bell, that he wasn't going to stop in Bruntsfield I was kicking myself for my mistake. And I regarded the additional walk as a lesson to myself to pay more attention in future. However, I am an adult male and it was broad daylight about 9am, so the circumstances were very different.

I wonder if it would have made a difference if the passenger had been in a wheelchair, rather than being an able-bodied young female?

* We moved house when I was ten and my new school was only about ¾ of a mile walk.

scotrail158713 · 9 Jan 2020

221129 said:
The concept of limited stop buses isnt new or unusual in Edinburgh. They all have it written on the front and side...

And that’s still not enough for some. I get the X25 to HWU from Princes St once a week and just about every time without fail someone rings the bell around Gorgie/Balgreen area.
One time we were stopped at traffic lights so the driver let them off - but he made clear it was only because we were already stopped.

Geordie driver · 9 Jan 2020

I was permitted to use buses alone locally from the age of 6 and go into town from 10 on the basis I understood how to use them. If I messed up it was my problem and my parents would have told me so. If a child isn't able at 12 to understand the rules the parents shouldn't let them use the bus. When I was a driver nearly every " mistake" you got was, in reality, someone taking a lend of you.
I would still have let her off just in case, perhaps the driver in this case was tired of people taking the Mick.

Busaholic · 9 Jan 2020

Duty of care overrules everything else imo; in the circumstances the OP describes, there's not much doubt what the driver should have done. Any so-called management hauling him up about it, if appraised of the situation, should themselves not be in that role, as they're obviously totally unsuited to the job. Regrettably, there seem to be plenty of instances where that's true, based on situations posted on this forum, plus the details of some that get more widely publicised like the Coventry bus crash, which, again imo but on the basis of information in the public domain, should have ended the career of more than Stagecoach employee at a more senior level. In most countries, a prosecution would have been inevitable, but we prefer to focus on the petty in this country.

L401CJF · 19 Jan 2020

Where I work we are told never to open the doors except at stops the service we are driving is registered to stop at. Partially for insurance reasons, partially because if drivers are letting people off anywhere and everywhere other passengers start to cotton on and expect the same treatment.

Get me in a good mood, and I'd probably stop, let them know we shouldn't be stopping and tell them to make sure they're on the right bus next time. Most the time I'd carry on to the next registered stop as above. I've driven limited stop services before and it's an all too common occurance.

Problem 1, do it for one person at what point do you say no to everybody else?

Problem 2, if you stop at a stop which you shouldn't be at, and the person(s) alighting slip over/trip and injure themselves etc, then your job is on the line - "You shouldn't have stopped there, insurance, etc" and so on.

As mentioned before, you're in the wrong for stopping and for not stopping!

philthetube · 19 Jan 2020

If drivers could rely on managers to support them when they used their judgement, then it would be much easier for drivers to make good decisions,

The one thing you can be sure of in this case is that had an accident occurred while the girl was leaving the bus, or another passenger complained, and some would, the driver would be in the wrong. Equally had something happened to the girl during her walk the driver would have been in the wrong again.

Girl upset at being forced to stay on until next stop on Limited Stop service

Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Member

Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

On Moderation

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member