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Missed connections with long gap to booked TOC's next service

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BRX

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[original OP edited to make clear that the question being asked applies regardless of whether travelling on a through fare, or on so called "split tickets"]

As I understand it, if travelling on split tickets making a multi-leg journey, and a connection for a leg with an operator-specific ticket is missed, then
(a) The railway is obliged to get you to your destination or provide overnight accommodation before doing so the next day
(b) You can be obliged to wait for the next service operated by the TOC that your ticket is specific to, even if other operators' services depart previous to that.

This can be frustrating if it means you have to wait, say, an hour for your train whilst multiple other ones depart to your destination, but is there any limit (other than the end of service) to how long you can be made to wait?

eg. a late running inbound service means you miss a booked train departing at 9am, and that operator's next service to your destination isn't until 9pm, do you have to wait for 12 hours, or does some notion of "reasonableness" kick in?

And if your service is a once-daily one, can they decide to tell you to wait 24hrs and provide you with overnight accommodation, instead of buying you a new ticket that will be valid with other operators?
 
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bb21

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Do you have any specific example in mind? Hypothesis is not always useful in discussing specific issues.

You almost certainly won't need to wait 12 hours for the next train, let alone 24 hours on a once-daily.
 

yorkie

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As I understand it, if travelling on split tickets, and a connection for a leg with an operator-specific ticket is missed, then
(a) The railway is obliged to get you to your destination or provide overnight accommodation before doing so the next day
(b) You can be obliged to wait for the next service operated by the TOC that your ticket is specific to, even if other operators' services depart previous to that.

This can be frustrating if it means you have to wait, say, an hour for your train whilst multiple other ones depart to your destination, but is there any limit (other than the end of service) to how long you can be made to wait?

eg. a late running inbound service means you miss a booked train departing at 9am, and that operator's next service to your destination isn't until 9pm, do you have to wait for 12 hours, or does some notion of "reasonableness" kick in?

And if your service is a once-daily one, can they decide to tell you to wait 24hrs and provide you with overnight accommodation, instead of buying you a new ticket that will be valid with other operators?
There is a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding going on in this post

I refer you to the Advance Fare FAQs (a copy is in our Fares Guide) and the National Rail Conditions of travel.

Passenger rights are no different when holding a combination of tickets compared to holding a through fare with equivalent restrictions!

If possible, buy all your tickets in one transaction with a through itinerary, so that you have easy concise and comprehensive evidence of your contracted journey. There are sites that will do this for you.

Also see this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...mean-you-need-to-pay-again-mythbuster.188155/
 

BRX

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Do you have any specific example in mind? Hypothesis is not always useful in discussing specific issues.

You almost certainly won't need to wait 12 hours for the next train, let alone 24 hours on a once-daily.

It's the general principle I'm interested in, but here is an example:
I am travelling from Elgin to Edinburgh, on split tickets:
- Scotrail ticket Elgin 0640 - Aberdeen 0804
- Crosscountry advance ticket Aberdeen 0820 - Edinburgh 1054
The Scotrail train is delayed and I miss the 0820 Crosscountry service. The next Crosscountry service leaving Aberdeen is not until 2135.

In this scenario I think no-one would consider it reasonable that I were asked to wait 13 hours and 15 minutes, when there are many Scotrail services I could take to complete my journey. But is there some kind of cut-off? If the next crosscountry service were 1 hour later, I might be asked to wait for that, even if there were a Scotrail service before it. What if the next Crosscountry service were 2 hours later, or 3, or 4 hours?
 

BRX

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There is a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding going on in this post

I refer you to the Advance Fare FAQs (a copy is in our Fares Guide) and the National Rail Conditions of travel.

Passenger rights are no different when holding a combination of tickets compared to holding a through fare with equivalent restrictions!

If possible, buy all your tickets in one transaction with a through itinerary, so that you have easy concise and comprehensive evidence of your contracted journey. There are sites that will do this for you.

Also see this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...mean-you-need-to-pay-again-mythbuster.188155/

I was reading your fares guide and NRCoT before posting this thread. I'm aware of the general principle that you are allowed to travel on split tickets and can expect similar rights to those which apply had you purchased a through fare.

Which bit specifically have I got wrong?

The part of the NRCoT I'm interested in is:

9.4. Where you are using a Ticket valid on a speci c train service or train services (such as an ‘advance’ Ticket) and you miss a service because a previous connecting train service was delayed, you will be able to travel on the next train service provided by the Train Company with whom you were booked without penalty.

That is quite specific in saying that I can travel on the next service provided by the Train Company with whom I was booked. It doesn't say anything about what should happen if there is a long gap until the next service provided by that company. It's unclear what my rights are in that situation (and who decides what is an overly long wait).
 

Kilopylae

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Notwithstanding instances where someone is reasonable beyond what is incumbent on them (e.g. you bring this to a member of platform staff at Aberdeen and they endorse your tickets for the next ScotRail Edinburgh service), I don't think you incur any new or special rights in this situation. Your rights are as stated in N.R.C. of T. [9.4] - to travel on the next train service provided by the operator from whom you bought the advance tickets. Naturally, you would be able to claim Delay Repay against your split ticket itinerary, and you would have the right to demand overnight accommodation or alternative transport if the next train was not on that day.

Beyond staff or the T.O.C. 'choosing to be nice', as it were, though, you don't have a right to take an earlier service run by another T.O.C. or demand alternative transport simply because it's a long wait for the next train.
 

BRX

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The NRCoT does make mention of the consumer rights act and

rights where a service is not performed with reasonable care and skill

Would asking me to wait 13 hours amount to failing to provide a service with reasonable care and skill?

I'm not sure who exactly would be failing to perform the service in the example I give - would it be Scotrail, having caused the delay, refusing to offer me onward travel on their own services?

There would be a slightly different situation if the Elgin-Aberdeen leg had been provided by a hypothetical third operator, who did not operate on the Aberdeen-Edinburgh route.
 

_toommm_

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Here's some context:

I did Manchester to Aberdeen - TransPennine to Edinburgh Waverley, LNER to Aberdeen. The TPE was cancelled at Carlisle so I had no hope of catching the LNER at Edinburgh. The next LNER train to Aberdeen was 4 hours away.

Staff will apply common sense and allow you to travel on the next train, even if it is a different TOC (in this case ScotRail). I received no official endorsement on the ticket, but the guard was absolutely fine on the ScotRail ticket.

It would be unreasonable for any staff member to ask you to wait more than hour for a connection on a specific TOC. Often, speaking to the guard on the platform beforehand will afford you the right to travel, as there is mutual respect there for asking before instead of just jumping on and assuming.
 

yorkie

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I was reading your fares guide and NRCoT before posting this thread. I'm aware of the general principle that you are allowed to travel on split tickets and can expect similar rights to those which apply had you purchased a through fare
It's the same rights; that's why I deliberately chose Sheffield to London as my example. It makes no difference whether a customer holds one TOC A + TOC B through fare, or a combination of TOC A fare and seperate TOC B fare.
That is quite specific in saying that I can travel on the next service provided by the Train Company with whom I was booked. It doesn't say anything about what should happen if there is a long gap until the next service provided by that company. It's unclear what my rights are in that situation (and who decides what is an overly long wait).
The rules should be made clearer, though I think train companies may be reluctant to specify a 'one size fits all' approach due to varying frequencies and degrees of reasonableness applying on vastly different routes.

The Advance Fare FAQs state that alternative arrangements should be made if the delay would be over 60 minutes; LNER for example have been stating recently that anyone on TPE only tickets can use LNER if there isn't a TPE train they can use within 60 minutes. However there have been occasions when Avanti West Coast have told people to wait 2 hours. It's unclear why there is a discrepancy there. These issues exist regardless of so-called "split ticketing" though; the thread title is arguably misleading.

Beyond staff or the T.O.C. 'choosing to be nice', as it were, though, you don't have a right to take an earlier service run by another T.O.C. or demand alternative transport simply because it's a long wait for the next train.
It is difficult to know where to draw the line but my interpretation is that if the raill industry attempted to try to enforce a 12 hour wait instead of taking alternative services that run frequently by Scotrail, this would not be in line with the Conditions. I can safely say that this hypothetical scenario would not happen in practise!
 

BRX

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The Advance Fare FAQs state that alternative arrangements should be made if the delay would be over 60 minutes;

What are the "Advance Fare FAQs"?

These issues exist regardless of so-called "split ticketing" though; the thread title is arguably misleading.

Please feel free to change the thread title if you think doing so would be useful to future readers. I am also happy to edit the OP to remove references to split ticketing.

That said, I don't think what I wrote contains misinformation as such - it outlines a scenario (using split tickets), and talks about the rules that apply in that scenario. That's not the same as saying that these rules only apply in a split ticket scenario.

Here's some context:

I did Manchester to Aberdeen - TransPennine to Edinburgh Waverley, LNER to Aberdeen. The TPE was cancelled at Carlisle so I had no hope of catching the LNER at Edinburgh. The next LNER train to Aberdeen was 4 hours away.

Staff will apply common sense and allow you to travel on the next train, even if it is a different TOC (in this case ScotRail). I received no official endorsement on the ticket, but the guard was absolutely fine on the ScotRail ticket.

It would be unreasonable for any staff member to ask you to wait more than hour for a connection on a specific TOC. Often, speaking to the guard on the platform beforehand will afford you the right to travel, as there is mutual respect there for asking before instead of just jumping on and assuming.

I think most people's experience is that common sense is generally applied, as you describe.

The question is what to do when you feel that common sense has not been applied. If I am told I have to wait for a train in three hours - or in 1 hour 5 mins - do I just have to accept it? There's nothing in the NRCoT that allows me to challenge such a decision by a member of railway staff, as far as I can see. Nor could I be confident that purchasing a new ticket, then claiming this back later, would be successful.
 
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yorkie

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Sorry if I sound overly critical but I am just keen to ensure that people don't erroneously think that rights are reduced simply by having a combination of tickets; I am not saying you are suggesting this is the case, however other people may get that impression, hence why I am keen to dispel it!

You can amend the title of a thread by using "Thread Tools" at the top of the page.

What are the "Advance Fare FAQs"?
This is contained within the rail industry's internal KnowledgeBase (iKB); a copy can be found as a PDF attachment in our Fares Guide.
 
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BRX

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Sorry if I sound overly critical but I am just keen to ensure that people don't erroneously think that rights are reduced simply by having a combination of tickets; you can amend the title of a thread by using "Thread Tools" at the top of the page.

I've edited the title & OP.

This is contained within the rail industry's internal KnowledgeBase (iKB); a copy can be found as a PDF attachment in our Fares Guide.
Thanks. The relevant bits seem to be (my bold):

Q: Can a passenger travel on any trains other than the one on which they are reserved, without changing the booking?

A: In certain cases, yes but the following principles must apply:

1). Start of the Journey. It is the passenger’s responsibility to turn up at the start of the journey in time for the first train. If they miss it due to problems parking, taxi not turning up etc, they must buy a new ticket;

2). Once the journey has begun. If the passenger is delayed and the rail industry or its partners (as shown below) is at fault, which should be checked with your Control Office, change to another train of the same company is allowed to get them to their destination with the least delay.

That seems to restrict it to the booked TOC, as stated in NRCoT.

But it also says:

Q: Can a passenger travel on a train if they are reserved on another TOC’s Advance dedicated ticket?

A: No, in principal. However, during times of disruption, retail and on-train staff should use their discretion, as advised by their Control office.

So, staff should use their 'discretion' but there's no guidance, as far as I can see, as to how that should be applied in the scenario I'm talking about. The only reference to 60 minutes is:

5. Refunds

Your ticket is non-refundable.

If the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or delayed by more than 60 minutes, special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train (although a seat cannot be guaranteed). If the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or delayed and if, as a result you decide not to travel, a refund will be offered on completely unused tickets and you will not be charged an administration fee

But that doesn't cover a situation where my first train is delayed by less than 60 minutes, making me miss my second train (which is neither delayed nor cancelled).
 

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Remember that the NRCoT also says that any TOC will assist if you are stranded, as long as they are in a position to do so.

The meaning of stranded isn’t defined. One could reasonable argue that you are stranded if you’ve got to wait more than an hour, two hours and certainly 13 hours to be able to complete your journey.
 

Haywain

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In the example given it would be difficult to imagine Scotrail causing the missed connection and subsequently declining to assist with the onward journey. After all, they would also be responsible for any resulting Delay Repay compensation.
 

Par

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I’m quite interested in this thread based on a possible scenario this coming a Saturday. Travelling between Manchester Piccadilly and Edinburgh with an 11 minute connection between a Northern service and an Avanti service at Preston. The Avanti departs Preston at 11.53 and given Northern’s less than fantastic punctuality, it would no come as no great surprise if the connection were to be lost.

The next Avanti to Edinburgh is 13.53 although there is a TPE at 13.05. Is it reasonable or even possible to travel on the TPE or would I be expected to wait the full two hours for the Avanti?

How would I go about travelling on TPE?
 

scrapy

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You'd be best speaking to station staff at Preston. If ticket acceptance is arranged may be that you are put on the 12.41 Avanti as far as Carlisle minimising the amount of time you are on another operators service. Either way you could claim delay repay from Northern if your connection is missed.
 

mailbyrail

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Last time I spoke to station staff at Preston was a waste of time and could have been misleading. Admittedly that was in the days of Virgin and perhaps Avanti have worked wonders, but somehow I doubt it.
 

Kilopylae

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internal KnowledgeBase said:
Q: Can a passenger travel on a train if they are reserved on another TOC’s Advance dedicated ticket?

A: No, in principal. However, during times of disruption, retail and on-train staff should use their discretion, as advised by their Control office.

This seems very similar to what I said here:

I don't think you incur any new or special rights.....Beyond staff or the T.O.C. 'choosing to be nice', as it were, though, you don't have a right to take an earlier service run by another T.O.C. or demand alternative transport simply because it's a long wait for the next train.

I think the crux of the issue is that while technically you don't have the right to demand any special treatment, in practice you would almost always be helped out and endorsed to travel on an earlier train.
 

BRX

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I think the crux of the issue is that while technically you don't have the right to demand any special treatment, in practice you would almost always be helped out and endorsed to travel on an earlier train.
But what's entirely unclear (in theory and in practice) is how long is considered reasonable, to make you wait for the next booked TOC service.
 

Y Ddraig Coch

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This seems very similar to what I said here:



I think the crux of the issue is that while technically you don't have the right to demand any special treatment, in practice you would almost always be helped out and endorsed to travel on an earlier train.

The bold bit is the issue as discussed on another thread. Trying to get anyone to endorse anything these days is like getting blood out of a stone. Staff are always happy to tell you jump on the next train but to actually put their name to it is a different thing altogether. Then you get the issue of saying to the train manager / guard that the person at Preston said it would be fine, train manager says it isn't and a stand off ensues until you purchase a new ticket usually.

Sad truth is there are rules and regulation for delay and disruption, sadly the amount of staff that actually know the correct rules and regulations for disruption can vary greatly.

Which leaves you at the good will of the TM / Guard usually, who I have found with a quiet chat before the train leaves are "usually" pretty accommodating.

A standard protocol for all disruption across the network should be discussed , written down and made publicly available and posted at stations and training given to all customer facing staff.
 

Par

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But what's entirely unclear (in theory and in practice) is how long is considered reasonable, to make you wait for the next booked TOC service.

Indeed, in my hypothetical scenario for this coming Saturday, is a 120 minute wait for the next Avanti service deemed acceptable, or should I have a reasonable expectation to take the TPE leaving 72 minutes after my original ["missed"] train?

It appears that there isn't a definitive answer.
 
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BRX

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Indeed, in my hypothetical scenario for this coming Saturday, is a 120 minute wait for the next Avanti service deemed acceptable, or should I have a reasonable expectation to take the TPE leaving 72 minutes after my original ["missed"] train?

It appears that there isn't a definitive answer.
The other thing that's unclear is who your argument is with, if you feel you are being asked to wait unreasonably. Is it the TOC which caused the delay which has the responsibility to sort you out (purchasing you a new ticket if another TOC refuses to let you travel) or is there an obligation for the TOC that's able to 'rescue' you to do so - in which case the argument is with them.
 

BRX

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(Also worth noting that there seems to be no *financial* incentive for any TOC to sort you out speedily after one hour has passed, because at that point the delay repay due has already reached its maximum.)
 

kieron

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The next Avanti to Edinburgh is 13.53 although there is a TPE at 13.05. Is it reasonable or even possible to travel on the TPE or would I be expected to wait the full two hours for the Avanti?

How would I go about travelling on TPE?
First of all, your best option is to ask the guard/ticket examiner before you board the train, or as soon as you can after. No-one you speak to before then will know if there is a reason why you shouldn't board that specific train, so it's harder to find someone with the authority to permit travel on it.

Second, there's a TPE at 12:03. This goes to Glasgow, but that's fine as you can change at Motherwell to the 14:25 to Edinburgh, for an arrival at 15:22, only just over an hour late. I wouldn't take this if the TPE is more than a couple of minutes late itself, as there's only a 5 minute wait in Motherwell, and no-one wants to have to rearrange their plans twice.
(Also worth noting that there seems to be no *financial* incentive for any TOC to sort you out speedily after one hour has passed, because at that point the delay repay due has already reached its maximum.)
On the other hand, I don't see that anyone has an incentive to delay your journey further, unless you're trying to board a train which is already rammed. If you're refused access to a TPE train following a delay, you're not likely to think "I'll have to buy a TPE ticket next time".

Even if the train is full, 1 able bodied passenger with little or no luggage is unlikely to delay the train by much, and delaying a disabled person has its own risks.
 

BRX

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On the other hand, I don't see that anyone has an incentive to delay your journey further, unless you're trying to board a train which is already rammed. If you're refused access to a TPE train following a delay, you're not likely to think "I'll have to buy a TPE ticket next time".

Even if the train is full, 1 able bodied passenger with little or no luggage is unlikely to delay the train by much, and delaying a disabled person has its own risks.

On that basis... Why have the thing about people having to wait for the next train from the booked operator at all? Why not just have a simple policy that if you miss a train due to a late connection, you board the next train to your destination regardless of operator. It would remove this ambiguous situation and improve people's general perception of rail travel.
 

gray1404

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I had hoped that when the following was added to the NRcoT effective December 2019.....: -

Condition 28.3 – What happens when things go wrong?
New Condition
When a customer’s journey is likely to be delayed by more than 60 minutes, they will have the option of either;
a. a refund of their ticket (unused tickets only)
b. re-route via an alternative route, or method of transport, or - in some cases - overnight accommodation will be provided without extra charge
c. continuation of their journey at a later date convenient for them

.....that "b" above would have allowed a customer to take the next train of any TOC if waiting for the original booked TOC would result in more then a 60 minute overall delay to the journey.

Sadly, the TOCs continue to behave like this new condition does not exist and are not giving the customers their entitled options.
 

Bletchleyite

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I can't see that text in the current NRCoT here:

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/46427.aspx

Indeed not, they have gone for the rather inferior:

28.3. Where your train is likely to be delayed for more than 60 minutes, you may use your Ticket to make your journey at a later date subject to comparable restrictions on your Ticket. Please refer to your Train Company’s website or contact them directly for details on how to obtain a replacement Ticket

At least that, unlike the proposed explanatory notes, doesn't stop the railway refusing an admin-fee-less refund on a ticket unused due to disruption because "you weren't delayed by an hour mate".

There is this:

28.2. Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your Ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary, provide overnight accommodation for you.

...but that doesn't say what constitutes preventing you completing the journey.
 

YorkC

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28.3. Where your train is likely to be delayed for more than 60 minutes, you may use your Ticket to make your journey at a later date subject to comparable restrictions on your Ticket. Please refer to your Train Company’s website or contact them directly for details on how to obtain a replacement Ticket

What does "comparable restrictions on your ticket" mean if what you hold is an advance ticket? Can you choose to travel at any time? How much "later" can "a later date" be? Apologies if this has been discussed already but I thought the previously reported text about this, rather than this text, had been added.
 

BRX

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It basically seems to say that your TOC will decide what to offer you, which seems a bit pointless. As you point out, 'comparable' is a somewhat imprecise word.
 
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