Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?

ed1971 said:

It is almost 52 years ago that BR ran it's last steam train in service. Therefore, anyone who remembers them in service and can relate to them will be nearly 60 years old. I have no interest whatsoever in steam engines apart from from collecting models of them. My mum also hated travelling on them due to their chugging action and filth.

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I would contend though that the majority of people visiting a preserved line do so for the steam train experience, and that steam has an appeal and fascination that transcends the generations and will live on long after daily main line steam operation has passed from living memory.

There is a strong and growing demand for seventies and eighties nostalgia evident in popular culture and trends in railway preservation have already shifted to reflect that, but I suspect that it will always be a comparatively niche enthusiast following compared to the bread and butter for most major preservation concerns of transporting families, tourists and day trippers by steam.

(Apologies for the thread drift folks, I seem to have started a small side discussion at post 2645 that would be more suitable in the "Preserved Pacers" thread).

anamyd said:

I believe that the 140 is in preservation, and is one of few Pacers to retain its original Leyland engines and SCG gearboxes, along with 141108 and single-car RB004.

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I think that the SCG gearboxes on the 140 are an earlier type than the R500 fitted to production Pacers. Earlier on this thread, I put a link to a YT video of it when it was being trialled in service. It seems to sound more like a heritage DMU.

Preservation must evolve and move
with the times with the generations.
For future enthusiasts at least.
Those are the people who could benefit future running of the heritage railways by means of volunteers and indeed visitors.

It's what people remember and all the memories that certain trains bring.
Local heritage plays a big part too.

If you owned a restaurant and didnt like eggs. Would you remove eggs from your menu?

If you cater for everyone. Everyone will come!

It a nice thought that at least some heritage railways have in fact realised how well the Pacers have actually done for our local rail networks.

That is just wrong, and a bit silly. It is like arguing they should build a glass and concrete extension on Hampton Court Palace to keep it relevant and because visitors can't relate to the Tudor period.

Chris217 said:

Defo inconvenient then lol

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Inconvenienced by the lack of a convenience!

SteveyBee131 said:

That's very kind, thank you and don't worry, there's no rush, life is busy, and answering a curious railway enthusiast's queries doesn't come top of the list , I understand

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I've just heard back from my GBrF driver-friend. Obviously he can't speak for Freightliner, but he suggested that either the driver(s) involved used to driver 142s before changing employer and thus a quick refresher was all that was required or that they simply learnt. Having a second member of staff on board to pilot the train makes little sense from a ££ perspective.

Cool, makes sense. Thanks for finding out

Bertie the bus said:

That is just wrong, and a bit silly. It is like arguing they should build a glass and concrete extension on Hampton Court Palace to keep it relevant and because visitors can't relate to the Tudor period.

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Lol.
The difference being its trains we are referring to.
They can be moved to suit the period of the running days.
Buildings cannot move so adding to an already listed building would in fact be silly!
Some people object to change.
And some consider heritage values differently according to age and generation.
Heritage lines are about just that.
Heritage.
And Pacers are heritage whether people like it or not.

Chris217 said:

Defo inconvenient then lol

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Absolutely, having been for a drink and after waiting in a cold shelter on a rainy night I'd chosen the 150 over the Pacer for the supposedly better loo. Nearly went for a last nostalgic ride in the Pacer and wished I had. I'll miss them and will probably look for one on a preserved line to be reminded of what we used to have.

IamTrainsYT said:

They have plans to run both

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Until something important breaks on one of them...

Bertie the bus said:

That is just wrong, and a bit silly. It is like arguing they should build a glass and concrete extension on Hampton Court Palace to keep it relevant and because visitors can't relate to the Tudor period.

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What a lot of tosh.

By your logic you are suggesting the NRM shouldn't preserve anything post the steam era.

Heritage railways need to cater for all visitors in order to be successful.

Whilst I love steam locos, I like the chance to ride on and see trains from my childhood days such as dmu's and diesel locos of various types too.

Remember, today's trains will be someone's heritage in the future if not your own!

Anyone confirm the numbers of the units that went from Heaton to Gascoigne today.
Also a reminder of tomorrows (fri) booked path Gascoigne to Newport sims metals.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K06283/2020-01-10/detailed
K

@Rikki Lamb.
Well put,and thanks for your similar views to mine.
The anti-Pacer brigade will never see anything good they dont like.
I for one think Pacers do deserve the respect they've earnt.
And that goes to all that work on them for keeping them going.
Good luck to all the heritage railways too who are taking some on for future history and the values they hold with many enthusiasts.

Chris217 said:

@Rikki Lamb.
Well put,and thanks for your similar views to mine.
The anti-Pacer brigade will never see anything good they dont like.
I for one think Pacers do deserve the respect they've earnt.
And that goes to all that work on them for keeping them going.
Good luck to all the heritage railways too who are taking some on for future history and the values they hold with many enthusiasts.

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I completely agree, pacers do deserve the respect they've earned. The have operated well past their lifespan and provided great work even if they are not to everyone's tastes. I'd rather a pacer than a cancelled train.

Without the pacers, today's railways could have looked much different and not for the better I suspect

Rikki Lamb said:

What a lot of tosh.

By your logic you are suggesting the NRM shouldn't preserve anything post the steam era.

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If you had actually bothered to read some of the things I have said you couldn't possibly come to that ridiculous conclusion.

Rikki Lamb said:

I completely agree, pacers do deserve the respect they've earned. The have operated well past their lifespan and provided great work even if they are not to everyone's tastes. I'd rather a pacer than a cancelled train.

Without the pacers, today's railways could have looked much different and not for the better I suspect

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As an aside, I have been suggesting to the largest Preservation Society in Scotland that the last 143 would be a good addition - it's the last train actually made in Scotland after all so ticks the boxes for the collection policy. Okay, there's the class 19 we built but it's not the same thing.

However, some of the older members disliked them in BR days and so wouldn't want one so do not seem at all keen to put a request in... a strange view for something ready to run but all too typical. Looking at the SR engine in the NRM that makes a class 70 look like a catwalk model, it's hard to imagine what heritage collections would be like if we only added things we liked. Young people wouldn't even know British Leyland existed if the same view was taken by motor museums......

superkev said:

Also a reminder of tomorrows (fri) booked path Gascoigne to Newport sims metals.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K06283/2020-01-10/detailed
K

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Thanks for that

Does anyone know the numbers of the units on that...?

superkev said:

Anyone confirm the numbers of the units that went from Heaton to Gascoigne today.
Also a reminder of tomorrows (fri) booked path Gascoigne to Newport sims metals.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K06283/2020-01-10/detailed
K

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As said before it was probably the 3 that they had left that aren’t staying till 31/5/20

IamTrainsYT said:

Heaton to gascoigne wood has left. Anyone confirm it’s 040, 063, 067?

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anamyd said:

Thanks for that

Does anyone know the numbers of the units on that...?

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039, 050, 009 have been there the longest. Possibly them.

Can confirm the Heaton to Gas Wood today were the ones off lease, 040/63 and 67.

simon7929 said:

Can confirm the Heaton to Gas Wood today were the ones off lease, 040/63 and 67.

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only the 24 that they have dispensation on left with northern now

So just the 9 at Heaton which should be around for a little bit longer now.

These being 013/8/65/8/70/1/87/94 and 95.

simon7929 said:

These being 013/8/65/8/70/1/87/94 and 95.

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they will however end up moving to newton heath so they can run them as they sadly are no more allowed to run in the northeast

I've included the three that have moved from Heaton to Gascoigne Wood. Plus something that a YouTuber has put out (see bottom of the post).


Red - withdrawn.
Orange - scrapped.
Yellow - converted to other use (does not include food tins or razor blades).
Green - modified for Passengers of Reduced Mobility.
Blue - in storage.
Purple - preserved.
Pink - can operate provided that they are coupled to a PRM compliant unit.


Class 142
001 - Unit preserved. Due to move to the National Railway Museum in York.
002
003 - was in storage at Barrow, moved to Heaton TMD and now at Gascoigne Wood.
004 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
005 - First to be withdrawn, now scrapped (updated as of 7th December 2019)
006
007 - was in storage at Barrow, moved to Heaton TMD and now at Gascoigne Wood.
008 - Scrapped (Collided with a class 87 at Winsford in 1999).
009 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood
010
011 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
012 - at Landore TMD? being stripped of spare parts.
013 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
014 - was in warm storage at Heaton TMD, now at Gascoigne Wood.
015 - was in storage at Gascoigne Wood, now at Newport Docks.
016 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
017 - in storage at Worksop
018 - in warm store at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
019 - in storage at Worksop
020 - in storage at Worksop
021 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood.
022 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
023 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
024 - was at Allerton, now at Newton Heath TMD. (Has this unit been withdrawn from service?)
025 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
026 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood.
027 - in storage at Worksop
028 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood
029 - Unit preserved at Chasewater Railway
030 - Unit preserved at Chasewater Railway
031 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood
032 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood.
033 - Converted to a Police Training Unit by South Wales Police at Bridgend rugby pitch.
034 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood
035 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
036 - Unit to be preserved at East Kent Railway, still in service at Northern - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
037 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
038 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood
039 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood
040 - was in storage at Barrow, moved to Heaton TMD and now at Gascoigne Wood.
041 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
042 - was in storage at Gascoigne Wood, now at Newport Docks.
043 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
044 - Scrapped, second class 142 unit to be dismantled at CF Booths (the first being 005).
045 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
046 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood.
047 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
048 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood
049 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood (soon moving to Newport Docks or Landore)
050 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood (unit not scrapped yet).
051 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
052 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury?
053 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood
054 - was in warm storage at Longsight TMD, now at Newton Heath TMD.
055 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
056 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood.
057 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood
058 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
059 - Scrapped (Collided with buffer stops at Liverpool Lime Street in 1991.)
060 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood.
061 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
062 - was in warm storage at Longsight TMD, now at Newton Heath TMD.
063 - was in warm storage at Heaton TMD, now at Gascoigne Wood.
064 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
065 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
066 - was in storage at Gascoigne Wood, now at Newport Docks.
067 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood. If used again, it must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
068 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
069
070 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
071 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
072
073 - ?
074
075
076
077
078 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
079 - at Landore TMD? being stripped of spare parts.
080
081
082
083
084 - in storage at Worksop
085
086 - at Canton, stripped of spare parts.
087 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
088 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury.
089 - was in warm storage at Newton Heath TMD, moved to Heaton TMD and now at Gascoigne Wood.
090 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
091 - in storage at Worksop
092 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood.
093 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury.
094 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
095 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
096 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury. The last of the class lost for good.

Class 143
601
602
603 - set to be preserved at the Swindon and Cricklade Railway
604
605
606
607
608
609
610
611
612
613 - Scrapped (Unit caught fire near Nailsea & Backwell in 2004).
614
615 - Scrapped (Unit caught fire in 2005).
616
617
618
619
620
621
622
623
624
625

Class 144 - All units stabled at Neville Hill TMD, can run on specified routes and can run solo.
001 - "Penistone Line Partnership"
002
003 - set to be preserved at the Great Central Railway at Ruddington.
004
005
006
007
008
009
010
011
012 - 144 Evolution has full PRM modifications. (Possibly the last ever Pacer in service?)
013
014
015
016
017
018
019
020
021
022
023


This list is not operator specific, but it does cover all Pacers that are in the firing line.

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Slightly off topic but to do with Pacer withdrawals, YouTube user "Nodrog" has been asked by the Managing Director of Northern for ideas for #leylandslastlap - more about it can also be found on his Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/nodrogvlogs/posts/2576609112584593

NorthernSpirit said:

Here's the funny thing, I've emailed roughly ten to fifteen heritage railways and asked them whether they'd preserve a Pacer. I'm just awaiting for the replies.

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Out of interest, have you had any responses yet?

Bertie the bus said:

If you had actually bothered to read some of the things I have said you couldn't possibly come to that ridiculous conclusion.

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@Rikki Lamb's conclusion wasn't ridiculous at all. Anyone who argues that second generation DMUs onwards aren't worthy of preservation is basically saying that no more trains will enter preservation ever again. In a few years' time, Sprinters will start to be withdrawn, followed by Turbos and Turbostars and so on and so forth. Will nothing ever be preserved again?

Chris217 said:

Preservation must evolve and move
with the times with the generations.
For future enthusiasts at least.
Those are the people who could benefit future running of the heritage railways by means of volunteers and indeed visitors.

It's what people remember and all the memories that certain trains bring.
Local heritage plays a big part too.

If you owned a restaurant and didnt like eggs. Would you remove eggs from your menu?

If you cater for everyone. Everyone will come!

It a nice thought that at least some heritage railways have in fact realised how well the Pacers have actually done for our local rail networks.

Click to expand...

Very good point.

Seán Elliott said:

@Rikki Lamb's conclusion wasn't ridiculous at all. Anyone who argues that second generation DMUs onwards aren't worthy of preservation is basically saying that no more trains will enter preservation ever again. In a few years' time, Sprinters will start to be withdrawn, followed by Turbos and Turbostars and so on and so forth. Will nothing ever be preserved again?

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I think Sprinters and Turbostars are supposed to run into the 2030s.

@Bertie the bus
Just to be clear, I realise that you weren't arguing that modern traction shouldn't be preserved per se; nevertheless, the idea that heritage lines would or should be more or less likely to preserve modern rolling stock according to their size or popularity seems a little ill-conceived.