Alliance Blackpool service to be run by Grand Central and start in 2021

The Planner · 4 Dec 2019

pt_mad said:
Excellent info.

Guessing the potential test paths for Feb are to clear MK4s and MK 4 DVTs on the route?
Do we know if they're still going for class 90s now?

There are gauge issues in a few places, I will have to dig the detail out.

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Ianno87 · 4 Dec 2019

chrisdmadd said:
Probably the same way as they work their Sunderland diagrams, I’m quite confident the train crew diagrams and timetables were produced hand in hand!! Unless your onto something they’ve missed, who’d have thought you need to produce train crew diagrams to fit a timetable.
View attachment 71120 I suppose they look Impossible too? Even though they’ve been working those services for a decade.

nope no London depots at all. Lodging very much still exists for Sunderland crews and I’m sure that’s exactly how they will run the Blackpool’s.

Aictos said:
So quite feasible to do the same for the Blackpool’s?

They could use the same lodgings and save money!

HLE · 4 Dec 2019

Aictos said:
What about Nuneaton as a depot?

A decent shout, if only there were carriage sidings nearby. Plenty of empty buildings. Trouble is as others have highlighted, is stabling. Taxi costs would be prohibitive and once taxi'd, prepped and got to Blackpool/Euston you'd be needing a PNB.

It's Blackpool so that's what it'll stay at.

The Ham · 5 Dec 2019

Ianno87 said:
They could use the same lodgings and save money!

Presumably, if they have enough up front capital they could buy somewhere and then of they ever don't need it they could sell it off, rent it out.

Over time it would be cheaper than booking a Hotel, even with having to send cleaners in.

Dave91131 · 5 Dec 2019

Reported elsewhere that there will be a 'core fleet' of 5 re-liveried class 90's for these service, with 90021 and 90026 being returned to service - whether these 2 locos form part of the 'core fleet' of 5 or not remains to be seen.

pt_mad · 14 Dec 2019

The Planner said:
Its like I said elsewhere, May 2020 at the earliest. They have got test paths in from Feb next year I think, but those are likely to be Q paths and run as and when.

February timetables seem to be in RTT now. Couldn't pick out any potential test paths from Blackpool or through Crewe. Would these likely be invisible on open data feeds at this stage?

ainsworth74 · 14 Dec 2019

pt_mad said:
February timetables seem to be in RTT now. Couldn't pick out any potential test paths from Blackpool or through Crewe. Would these likely be invisible on open data feeds at this stage?

They'll be Short Term Plan or Very Short Term Plan I'd expect so wouldn't show up until very very close.

The Planner · 15 Dec 2019

pt_mad said:
February timetables seem to be in RTT now. Couldn't pick out any potential test paths from Blackpool or through Crewe. Would these likely be invisible on open data feeds at this stage?

They will be on the graph just not uploaded, though they could have been put on as Q paths if someone wanted. As ainsworth has said they will likely get activated on a STP basis.

pt_mad · 9 Jan 2020

Paths seem to have appeared in Real-time trains for these services from the end of May under TOC selection 'Alliance Rail' when filtering.

NewSt · 9 Jan 2020

pt_mad said:
Paths seem to have appeared in Real-time trains for these services from the end of May under TOC selection 'Alliance Rail' when filtering.

Indeed they have, 09:13 BPN-EUS on the 17th May appears to be the first service. Am going to book a ticket on it the second they come on sale!

BPN - Blackpool North
EUS - London Euston

38Cto15E · 9 Jan 2020

8 trains a day direct from Blackpool North to Euston, very good news.

pdeaves · 9 Jan 2020

pt_mad said:
Paths seem to have appeared in Real-time trains for these services from the end of May under TOC selection 'Alliance Rail' when filtering.

On looking now (9 Jan, 1050) they are under TOC 'LN' (that is not in the TOC list), whereas Alliance is in the TOC list as AR. Just in case anyone might get confused!

Aictos · 9 Jan 2020

They might show up as in the system but are they actually going to be running?

Is there enough time between now and May for everything to be in place eg rolling stock, suppliers, staffing etc....

General Zod · 9 Jan 2020

What is the ticket pricing to Blackpool / Preston likely to be like ? Will they be undercutting Avanti WC on the Euston-Preston route ?

LNW-GW Joint · 9 Jan 2020

The times seem to be the same as in post #509, ie only calling at Nuneaton and Milton Keynes south of Preston.
Journey times are 20-30 minutes slower than the mainstream Avanti services (but Avanti's Blackpool services are slower than the rest).
They are about the same as the 87+Mk3 times of 2 decades ago.
I can't help thinking Blackpool will be over-served with 8tpd to London.
The main battle will be at Preston.

RAPC · 9 Jan 2020

It won't take much effort for them to bring some price competition in at Preston. The Avanti / former Virgin fares are consistently high, so some extra capacity and competition will definitely help.

Ianno87 · 9 Jan 2020

LNW-GW Joint said:
The times seem to be the same as in post #509, ie only calling at Nuneaton and Milton Keynes south of Preston.
Journey times are 20-30 minutes slower than the mainstream Avanti services (but Avanti's Blackpool services are slower than the rest).
They are about the same as the 87+Mk3 times of 2 decades ago.
I can't help thinking Blackpool will be over-served with 8tpd to London.
The main battle will be at Preston.

Although Preston is busy, I do wonder if it will be a sufficient 'critical mass' in itself for Alliance to pay its own way? Let's face it, I doubt there'll be *that* much demand from Blackpool.

Mag_seven · 9 Jan 2020

Aictos said:
They might show up as in the system but are they actually going to be running?

Is there enough time between now and May for everything to be in place eg rolling stock, suppliers, staffing etc....

Knowing how long railway planning timescales are I doubt it. Have they even secured any stock or locos yet?

Bletchleyite · 9 Jan 2020

RAPC said:
It won't take much effort for them to bring some price competition in at Preston. The Avanti / former Virgin fares are consistently high, so some extra capacity and competition will definitely help.

You can get some quite good fares via Manchester, though, which tallies with the higher frequency service having more space. Certainly in 1st.

ainsworth74 · 9 Jan 2020

Mag_seven said:
Have they even secured any stock or locos yet?

Allegedly the reason some of the Mk4s came off lease first was to meet the demands for TfW and Grand Central so I'd assume they've got the rolling stock in hand. Loco's are supposed to be 90s now and there's a few of them floating around. I think it was the GA ones that were being eyed up long term but I'm sure there's enough about that you could lease some on a temporary hire in basis (ala LNER).

dgl · 9 Jan 2020

I'm guessing the locos are ones already owned by DBC and it's just a case of getting the Mk. 4 stock now LNER have finished with them (I believe).
Naturally CL 90's already work with the Mk. 4 stock so that isn't a problem.

SC318250 · 9 Jan 2020

90026 has been repaired and is ready for main lune testing before going for relivery for Blackpool services.
90021 is under repairs at present also

fishquinn · 9 Jan 2020

I’ve heard 90020/021/026/029/039 quoted for the main pool of locos.

43096 · 9 Jan 2020

ainsworth74 said:
Allegedly the reason some of the Mk4s came off lease first was to meet the demands for TfW and Grand Central so I'd assume they've got the rolling stock in hand. Loco's are supposed to be 90s now and there's a few of them floating around. I think it was the GA ones that were being eyed up long term but I'm sure there's enough about that you could lease some on a temporary hire in basis (ala LNER).

The GA 90s were never in the frame for this. It was originally going to be 91s and Mark 4s, but with 110mph paths this has changed to Mark 4s with DB Cargo Class 90s.

Murray J · 9 Jan 2020

fishquinn said:
I’ve heard 90020/021/026/029/039 quoted for the main pool of locos.

Interesting choices, considering all but 1 are in the old EWS livery, or 1 which appears to still be in first ScotRail livery.

ainsworth74 · 9 Jan 2020

43096 said:
The GA 90s were never in the frame for this. It was originally going to be 91s and Mark 4s, but with 110mph paths this has changed to Mark 4s with DB Cargo Class 90s.

Fair enough. I knew about the swap from 91s to 90s but obviously got the wrong end of the stick somewhere as to which 90s it was going to be!

38Cto15E · 9 Jan 2020

Nuneaton area folk can have a nice day on the beach in Blackpool this summer, if the fares are not too high.
Nuneaton 0748, Blackpool North 0937 and return from Blackpool North at 1735 arriving in Nuneaton at 1930.

Darandio · 9 Jan 2020

Gus said:
Nuneaton area folk can have a nice day on the beach in Blackpool this summer, if the fares are not too high.
Nuneaton 0748, Blackpool North 0937 and return from Blackpool North at 1735 arriving in Nuneaton at 1930.

More trainloads of people descending on the oasis of customer service that is Blackpool North. I can just envisage the staff already planning new and exciting ways to torture passengers this summer.

fishquinn · 9 Jan 2020

Murray J said:
Interesting choices, considering all but 1 are in the old EWS livery, or 1 which appears to still be in first ScotRail livery.

From what I've heard all are being repainted into GC livery (but don't quote me on that).

Murray J · 9 Jan 2020

it would make sense, i'd say that's one of the reasons they chose 90s that are mostly in EWS livery, bar 1.

Alliance Blackpool service to be run by Grand Central and start in 2021

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