Alliance Blackpool service to be run by Grand Central and start in 2021

38Cto15E · 10 Jan 2020

Next week I am going from Rugby to Blackpool North for the 3rd time since November, for leisure purposes. I live near to Leicester and drive to Rugby and leave my car next to the station, a bit pricy at £9 per day but all stations are pricy for parking, well except Atherstone

.
With Avanti I pay around £28 each way in First, which includes food and drink and a first stop Warrington Bank Quay,. Depending on the fares I would like to use the new service from Nuneaton with rail connection from Leicester rather than car, which I understand is first stop Preston. I love going through the usual stopping stations at a good belt.
Hotels are very cheap in Blackpool out of season, I know Fleetwood and Blackpool have seen better days but St Annes is very pleasant.
I get free bus travel and this time I have gone for plusbus one day which includes tram travel, there is a lovely old fashioned cheap cafe at Fleetwood Ferry.
Also train fares are pretty good value, on Tuesday I have got an Avanti Preston-Carlisle standard return for around £12.
I can see things picking up for the Fylde area once the general public get used to the 8 trains a day Avanti and Alliance? Blackpool service.

RailUK Forums

matacaster · 10 Jan 2020

Sorry mistake.

matacaster · 10 Jan 2020

Ianno87 said:
Although Preston is busy, I do wonder if it will be a sufficient 'critical mass' in itself for Alliance to pay its own way? Let's face it, I doubt there'll be *that* much demand from Blackpool.

I think you'll find there is a critical mass about blackpool! :smile:

Sheepy1209 · 10 Jan 2020

I live in Blackpool and I'm sick to the back teeth of the cheap jibes I see repeatedly on this forum. Yes, it has its problems, the area around the station in particular, and I won't argue with the reputation of Blackpool North's staff. But the Fylde as a whole is NOT a ****hole as one of you chose to call it, and as someone who's travelled extensively around the UK by rail visiting many of my employer's 600 offices I can vouch for the fact that there are far worse ****holes around the country, many of which are not what I expected.

It's becoming tedious and a huge distraction from what is an otherwise interesting thread.

Bletchleyite · 10 Jan 2020

Aictos said:
There are nicer places then Brighton though, as to Blackpool being a hellhole well Bletchley springs to mine.

I don't think (other than Bletchley Park which is near enough opposite the station) we are suggesting that masses of people would want to visit Bletchley, though, are we? It's basically a commuter suburb. Whereas some are suggesting masses wishing to visit Blackpool.

Bletchleyite · 10 Jan 2020

Sheepy1209 said:
I live in Blackpool and I'm sick to the back teeth of the cheap jibes I see repeatedly on this forum. Yes, it has its problems, the area around the station in particular, and I won't argue with the reputation of Blackpool North's staff. But the Fylde as a whole is NOT a ****hole as one of you chose to call it, and as someone who's travelled extensively around the UK by rail visiting many of my employer's 600 offices I can vouch for the fact that there are far worse ****holes around the country, many of which are not what I expected.

It's becoming tedious and a huge distraction from what is an otherwise interesting thread.

St Anne's etc are very nice, but there is not the sort of reason to visit that from the South East and Midlands that's going to fill these trains up. They are going to fill up with people from the North West visiting London, and people from the North West living in London (or possibly to a lesser extent MK - I might use them if the times suit, the price is right and they are vaguely reliable) visiting "back home".

You won't sway me on the "resort" part of Blackpool nor the town centre. It's just not nice. If you want a freezing cold seaside resort, Llandudno does it that bit classier (not that its town centre is something to really write home about).

Nor will people from the SE or Midlands go to Blackpool for the Pleasure Beach - Alton Towers and Thorpe Park are rather better venues and nearer too.

Sleeperwaking · 10 Jan 2020

Bertie the bus said:
I would say they are not trying to attract passengers from anywhere who want to go to Blackpool. They have almost certainly chosen Blackpool as a destination because they thought if they did, with its very poor service to London at the time of their application, they would have a decent chance of it being approved. It is the London – Milton Keynes and London – Preston markets they are interested in.

I agree - it strikes me that someone calculated how far up the WCML they needed to go to make the numbers work, then picked a terminus station on a connecting branch line a short distance further on with enough spare capacity / suitable platforms to accomodate a long-ish layover. Bonus that Blackpool has a depot / stabling sidings which reduces ECS moves at start / end of service.

Aictos · 10 Jan 2020

Sheepy1209 said:
I live in Blackpool and I'm sick to the back teeth of the cheap jibes I see repeatedly on this forum. Yes, it has its problems, the area around the station in particular, and I won't argue with the reputation of Blackpool North's staff. But the Fylde as a whole is NOT a ****hole as one of you chose to call it, and as someone who's travelled extensively around the UK by rail visiting many of my employer's 600 offices I can vouch for the fact that there are far worse ****holes around the country, many of which are not what I expected.

It's becoming tedious and a huge distraction from what is an otherwise interesting thread.

Well said, I quite agree and that’s from someone who last visited your local area in 1992!

Bletchleyite · 10 Jan 2020

Sleeperwaking said:
I agree - it strikes me that someone calculated how far up the WCML they needed to go to make the numbers work, then picked a terminus station on a connecting branch line a short distance further on with enough spare capacity / suitable platforms to accomodate a long-ish layover. Bonus that Blackpool has a depot / stabling sidings which reduces ECS moves at start / end of service.

Agreed. I don't think the London-MK market will be of any interest, really - 5tpd (or was it 6?) just won't compete with 3tph from Avanti or about the same from LNR, even if the reliability of the latter is dire at the moment. It might cause some Advances to be released but most people don't bother with those as the TOC specific walk-ups are not expensive.

MK to the North West via the Trent Valley they might make some inroads into.

I'd imagine far more people will use it to/from Preston (either finishing there or connecting on elsewhere) than to/from Blackpool. Also of note is the large University in Preston - quite a lot of their students probably come from the South East and would appreciate a budget service without a change at Crewe.

DarloRich · 10 Jan 2020

Sleeperwaking said:
I agree - it strikes me that someone calculated how far up the WCML they needed to go to make the numbers work, then picked a terminus station on a connecting branch line a short distance further on with enough spare capacity / suitable platforms to accomodate a long-ish layover. Bonus that Blackpool has a depot / stabling sidings which reduces ECS moves at start / end of service.

You mean the standard open access business case?

Preston is the target of this service just like York and Leeds ( which was blocked) and Doncaster is the target of the ecml on open access services.

Sunderland and Bradford and in this case Blackpool are just useful end points with a depot near by

Glenn1969 · 10 Jan 2020

. Surely if it was all about stabling the Bradford services would terminate at Kirkgate and not serve the sizeable market they seem to have built up in Bradford/Halifax/Brighouse/Mirfield ?

I think you may find there is a leisure market for services to Blackpool particularly in Summer and during the world famous Illuminations

43096 · 10 Jan 2020

DarloRich said:
You mean the standard open access business case?

Preston is the target of this service just like York and Leeds ( which was blocked) and Doncaster is the target of the ecml on open access services.

Sunderland and Bradford and in this case Blackpool are just useful end points with a depot near by

You've conveniently avoided mentioning Hull Trains.

It was the case (don't know if it still is) that the East Coast franchise operator benefited from Hull Trains as HT had grown the market and the franchise benefited as its one train per day became a reverse ORCATS raid.

DarloRich · 10 Jan 2020

43096 said:
You've conveniently avoided mentioning Hull Trains.

It was the case (don't know if it still is) that the East Coast franchise operator benefited from Hull Trains as HT had grown the market and the franchise benefited as its one train per day became a reverse ORCATS raid.

Is Hull Trains open access on the same way gc is? I had it in my mind they weren't

Bletchleyite · 10 Jan 2020

DarloRich said:
Is Hull Trains open access on the same way gc is? I had it in my mind they weren't

I believe so, yes.

ainsworth74 · 10 Jan 2020

DarloRich said:
Is Hull Trains open access on the same way gc is? I had it in my mind they weren't

In what way do you think they're different?

johnnychips · 10 Jan 2020

^I can’t answer for @DarloRich but is it possibly that they’ve been around so long they are perceived as part of the system? I assume they got past the ‘abstraction’ rule by firstly operating trains from Hull and secondly by not stopping at Peterborough therefore operating a non-stop service from Grantham, which GNER (or whoever it was) didn’t offer then - evidently they do now.

In the same way, GC operates from termini with poor LNER services (Bradford and Sunderland - can’t remember who operated the services when GC started) but could also offer non-stop services from Doncaster and York respectively, which weren’t available then.

With the West Coast service, the non-stop argument isn’t easily possible, so they need to propose intermediate stops that aren’t readily available on Avanti. And as some posters have pointed out, this could lead to better connections from some places.

However as others have said, Blackpool is more a convenient turning place with an existing limited service, and therefore a justification for an open access service, rather than a location with oodles of suppressed demand.

I do like Blackpool though!

pt_mad · 10 Jan 2020

johnnychips said:
.
However as others have said, Blackpool is more a convenient turning place with an existing limited service, and therefore a justification for an open access service, rather than a location with oodles of suppressed demand.

I do like Blackpool though!

Mind you if Chester warrants a regular London service then I can't see any reason why Blackpool/Fleetwood wouldn't. Blackpool population is supposed to be somewhere around 140,000 afaik, and that's the town itself and doesn't include Fleetwood and surrounding villages.
It's no small village halt by any means. And that's before tourism is factored in, and that's thousands upon thousands for things like the illuminations despite what people might say.

Especially given now that it's wired as well.

Corby was identified as worthy of a frequent London service. Blackpool will still have less than an hourly London service.

WestCoast · 10 Jan 2020

Sheepy1209 said:
I live in Blackpool and I'm sick to the back teeth of the cheap jibes I see repeatedly on this forum. Yes, it has its problems, the area around the station in particular, and I won't argue with the reputation of Blackpool North's staff. But the Fylde as a whole is NOT a ****hole as one of you chose to call it, and as someone who's travelled extensively around the UK by rail visiting many of my employer's 600 offices I can vouch for the fact that there are far worse ****holes around the country, many of which are not what I expected.

It's becoming tedious and a huge distraction from what is an otherwise interesting thread.

Hold your head high mate. I am from Blackpool and there's many decent people there. Grew up near Oxford Square and had the park, zoo, Pleasure Beach etc all in walking distance I was never bored. Never had any issues really,, nothing compared to some of the stories of my mates growing up in Manchester. It has its economic issues fair enough like most seaside towns but doesn''t deserve the rep it gets. As a tourist, If you know where to go you can have a pretty fun time. Some of the new hotels popping up are really raising the game fo the town. A trip to the Pleasure Beach if you're into that sort of thing combined with decent chippy and a pint on the beachfront, give me that over Alton Towers any day!

pt_mad · 10 Jan 2020

WestCoast said:
Hold your head high mate. I am from Blackpool and there's many decent people there. Grew up near Oxford Square and had the park, zoo, Pleasure Beach etc all in walking distance I was never bored. Never had any issues really,, nothing compared to some of the stories of my mates growing up in Manchester. It has its economic issues fair enough like most seaside towns but doesn''t deserve the rep it gets. As a tourist, If you know where to go you can have a pretty fun time.

Quite.

Going off topic slightly. But what I really can't understand is despite the multi million investment on things such as the new promenade, tower resort, tower headland, new trams and square at North Pier etc, there are still those who give the place a bad press. And yet it's way more upmarket than it was in the 80s and 90s (it was equally as fun and enjoyable then, just more 60s in it's architecture and asthetics imo).

The council are trying to make the tourist hotspots lean towards being more cosmopolitan as the tourist has changed. Not all have and some appreciate the traditions of old. They are trying to strike the balance and it takes time but I love a few days up there especially during the lights. Not everywhere can be like a city by the sea in the sort of way Brighton is. I'd rather have a promenade full of shops and attractions rather than just a run of hotels with nowhere to go into.

Aictos · 10 Jan 2020

WestCoast said:
Hold your head high mate. I am from Blackpool and there's many decent people there. Grew up near Oxford Square and had the park, zoo, Pleasure Beach etc all in walking distance I was never bored. Never had any issues really,, nothing compared to some of the stories of my mates growing up in Manchester. It has its economic issues fair enough like most seaside towns but doesn''t deserve the rep it gets. As a tourist, If you know where to go you can have a pretty fun time. Some of the new hotels popping up are really raising the game fo the town. A trip to the Pleasure Beach if you're into that sort of thing combined with decent chippy and a pint on the beachfront, give me that over Alton Towers any day!

You forgot the Sandcastle complex

Glenn1969 · 10 Jan 2020

The total population of the 3 Fylde Coast boroughs is 330,000. Surely that warrants a reasonable London service even without the tourism factor

Mag_seven · 10 Jan 2020

Bertie the bus said:
Who could have predicted that?

And who mocked when it was predicted?

I've never doubted it would happen (unlike some). I'm just questioning their timescales for a May start.

We will soon find out in about 5 months.

WestCoast · 11 Jan 2020

pt_mad said:
Quite.

Going off topic slightly. But what I really can't understand is despite the multi million investment on things such as the new promenade, tower resort, tower headland, new trams and square at North Pier etc, there are still those who give the place a bad press. And yet it's way more upmarket than it was in the 80s and 90s (it was equally as fun and enjoyable then, just more 60s in it's architecture and asthetics imo).

The council are trying to make the tourist hotspots lean towards being more cosmopolitan as the tourist has changed. Not all have and some appreciate the traditions of old. They are trying to strike the balance and it takes time but I love a few days up there especially during the lights. Not everywhere can be like a city by the sea in the sort of way Brighton is. I'd rather have a promenade full of shops and attractions rather than just a run of hotels with nowhere to go into.

It's not everyone's cup of tea and is pretty run down in parts for sure (it's equally got some very nice bits too) but it defintely isn't boring and that's what I have always liked about it. People from boring towns can be as critical as they want. The place has changed so much since the late '90s it's amazing having a run along the prom all the way up to Cleveleys or Fleetwood. I struggle to think of many towns that have had sucha drastic makeover.

People from Southern England have never really visited Blackpool much anyway so I wouldn't expect this new service to pull anyone anyway, lots of people from Midlands up to Scotland do and will continue to do so.

WestCoast · 11 Jan 2020

Glenn1969 said:
The total population of the 3 Fylde Coast boroughs is 330,000. Surely that warrants a reasonable London service even without the tourism factor

Absolutely. At one stage there were twice daily FLIGHTS from Blackpool to the London area, there is some demand.

cactustwirly · 11 Jan 2020

pt_mad said:
Mind you if Chester warrants a regular London service then I can't see any reason why Blackpool/Fleetwood wouldn't. Blackpool population is supposed to be somewhere around 140,000 afaik, and that's the town itself and doesn't include Fleetwood and surrounding villages.
It's no small village halt by any means. And that's before tourism is factored in, and that's thousands upon thousands for things like the illuminations despite what people might say.

Especially given now that it's wired as well.

Corby was identified as worthy of a frequent London service. Blackpool will still have less than an hourly London service.

But Chester is a much larger tourist draw than Blackpool! Plus it has a university which obviously Blackpool doesn't.
Population isn't everything

pt_mad · 11 Jan 2020

cactustwirly said:
But Chester is a much larger tourist draw than Blackpool! Plus it has a university which obviously Blackpool doesn't.
Population isn't everything

Are you sure? I would personally imagine Blackpool would have more hotels and holiday parks than Chester which might indicate more overnight tourism?

Bertie the bus · 11 Jan 2020

I have my opinions of Blackpool which I have no intention of boring people with but Blackpool isn't on the up. There was a news story a couple of weeks ago about how poor the visitor numbers were last year. Even if it was on the up tourism has little relevance to this service. It isn't going to be a summer Saturday service, it is going to be 7 days per week, 52 weeks per year and tourists don't visit Blackpool on a Wednesday afternoon in February. Although it does get holidaymakers from Scotland and the Midlands I doubt it gets many day trippers at all from outside the North West even in peak season. There is also no real comparison with Hull Trains and the increase in passengers attributed to them. Blackpool has far more services to Preston with easy connections to London than Hull does to ECML stations.

Steddenm · 11 Jan 2020

Bletchleyite said:
St Anne's etc are very nice, but there is not the sort of reason to visit that from the South East and Midlands that's going to fill these trains up. They are going to fill up with people from the North West visiting London, and people from the North West living in London (or possibly to a lesser extent MK - I might use them if the times suit, the price is right and they are vaguely reliable) visiting "back home".

You won't sway me on the "resort" part of Blackpool nor the town centre. It's just not nice. If you want a freezing cold seaside resort, Llandudno does it that bit classier (not that its town centre is something to really write home about).

Nor will people from the SE or Midlands go to Blackpool for the Pleasure Beach - Alton Towers and Thorpe Park are rather better venues and nearer too.

I think you'll find you are wrong there. As an ex-hotellier in Blackpool I can tell you that during the summer season when the Pleasure Beach is open 65% of our guests came from the Midlands, South East or London and 80% of those travelled by train.

Also, with Grand Central starting services, this will bring more people to the town. It is undergoing a massive investment with a new entertainments complex opening, better hotels, better connections and a new ice skating rink planned.

Blackpool may be drab (especially around the North Shore) but millions of visitors come to the town every year so there must be some demand for this service to operate.

Yes the Avanti services may just cart around air in the winter, but come summer they are packed to the rafters.

gimmea50anyday · 11 Jan 2020

Before becoming a railway employee In a previous life as a holiday park entertainer I was based at Marton Mere for a year, one of the reasons I still work as a DJ now. Yes the seaside resort towns do get an unfair reputation with the non-tourist economy being quite poor, but Blackpool isn’t unique in its issues. However, compared to many other seaside resort towns Blackpool has remained relatively strong, despite the demise of Pontins.

Bletchleyite · 11 Jan 2020

pt_mad said:
Corby was identified as worthy of a frequent London service. Blackpool will still have less than an hourly London service.

Corby didn't have any service before (and there was barely any point putting on a shuttle DMU when there was a need for more capacity from Market Ketteringborough to London too). Blackpool has a frequent service to Preston and Manchester for 4tph worth of connections to London.

There's also the regenerative possibility that while it's quite far out Corby's rather high unemployment could be reduced by people being able to commute to London. While it's a long journey, better that than no job. Blackpool's commuter equivalent would be Manchester, to which it already has a frequent service.

So in other words, no great need - and the Avanti services aren't exactly heaving.

Alliance Blackpool service to be run by Grand Central and start in 2021

Member

RailUK Forums

On Moderation

On Moderation

Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

On Moderation

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Forum Staff

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Forum Staff

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member