GWR 387’s to Cardiff??

Fincra5 · 26 Jun 2018

Could they used 387s down Bristol way for Bristol to Cardiff trains? Or is the route wrong for electrification?

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Dai Corner · 26 Jun 2018

Fincra5 said:
Could they used 387s down Bristol way for Bristol to Cardiff trains? Or is the route wrong for electrification?

The Cardiff - Bristol Parkway trains all continue to Paddington and are all HSTs or IETs. There is no date for electrification to Temple Meads.

swt_passenger · 26 Jun 2018

Fincra5 said:
Could they used 387s down Bristol way for Bristol to Cardiff trains? Or is the route wrong for electrification?

This proposal is purely about covering weekend major events occasionally when the timetabled train requirement in the Thames Valley is lower than on weekdays. It isn’t about transferring 387s to normal use elsewhere.

Grumpy · 26 Jun 2018

DanNCL said:
387s would make great crowd movers for event days, but I don't think they're suitable for running regular services between Paddington and Cardiff, only event day extras.

The 350s aren't deemed to be suitable for Manchester - Edinburgh, that's why they're being replaced by 397s.

Not deemed suitable when they, with the 185's, have trashed the competing air services so that these are a shadow of what they were? I thought the problem was insufficient capacity hence the need for longer trains.

Bikeman78 · 26 Jun 2018

DanNCL said:
387s would make great crowd movers for event days, but I don't think they're suitable for running regular services between Paddington and Cardiff, only event day extras.

The 350s aren't deemed to be suitable for Manchester - Edinburgh, that's why they're being replaced by 397s.

Each to their own. Whenever I go to Glasgow from Cardiff I aim for a 350 rather than a Pendolino.

anamyd · 11 Jan 2020

(Click/tap to view) Apologies if there's a newer thread and I couldn't find it, but I just saw this at Cardiff Central - a sign/board that says (to quote the relevant text) "Class 387 - Access to Brickyard and line A only".

Bob Price · 11 Jan 2020

To have created a sign someone somewhere must have thought it relevant. Imagine being able to lift 1000 people at a time out of Central, make a huge difference to crowds

MarlowDonkey · 11 Jan 2020

Bob Price said:
To have created a sign someone somewhere must have thought it relevant.

I think it always was the plan to borrow some London area 387s for big events in Cardiff and run them as 12 coaches. It requires being able to use electric under the low bridge at Staverton and having the power on through the Severn tunnel.

Snow1964 · 11 Jan 2020

MarlowDonkey said:
I think it always was the plan to borrow some London area 387s for big events in Cardiff and run them as 12 coaches. It requires being able to use electric under the low bridge at Staverton and having the power on through the Severn tunnel.

Quite a lot of logic if they some are sitting around idle at weekends.

Out of interest if doing limited stop, are some platforms long enough to take 16 car formations, (which would be a serious people mover). I suspect many platforms are going to be nearer 270-300m rather than 330m

I ask because I vaguely remember seeing photos of GWR operated trains with loco (or double loco) and 14-16 carriages on some main line trains.

Bob Price · 11 Jan 2020

MarlowDonkey said:
I think it always was the plan to borrow some London area 387s for big events in Cardiff and run them as 12 coaches. It requires being able to use electric under the low bridge at Staverton and having the power on through the Severn tunnel.

Are they able to power off under the bridge? Still don't know why Network Rail didn't appeal to the DfT to sort the Staverton Nimby problem.

43096 · 11 Jan 2020

Doomotron said:
If they have 45 trains for 40 diagrams, how are they going to make up the lost units? 379s or 360s from GA would make sense.

Because the proposal is for “crowd busting” trains when there are events on in Cardiff (Wales vs England rugby, for example), much of this requirement will be off peak at weekends etc when fewer units are needed in the Thames Valley.

As for your suggestion of 360s, they’re going to EMR.

irish_rail · 11 Jan 2020

Bob Price said:
Are they able to power off under the bridge? Still don't know why Network Rail didn't appeal to the DfT to sort the Staverton Nimby problem.

They can go under the bridge fine now I believe. IETs have an 110 speed limit through there now, assume it's the same for 387s.

D365 · 11 Jan 2020

If GWR do find that they need additional, modern, proven EMUs; there's the six Class 387/3s going spare from c2c in a few years. Perhaps it's already planned.

cactustwirly · 11 Jan 2020

D365 said:
If GWR do find that they need additional, modern, proven EMUs; there's the six Class 387/3s going spare from c2c in a few years. Perhaps it's already planned.

That could be useful, allowing all peak services to be 12 car

Class 170101 · 11 Jan 2020

43096 said:
As for your suggestion of 360s, they’re going to EMR.

GA ones yes I don't think the same can be said for the Heathrow Connect ones.

TT-ONR-NRN · 11 Jan 2020

Class 170101 said:
GA ones yes I don't think the same can be said for the Heathrow Connect ones.

Fairly sure I heard they were going to Thailand, not that they’d be any better than the gangwayed armrested and tabled 387s

D365 · 11 Jan 2020

Class 170101 said:
GA ones yes I don't think the same can be said for the Heathrow Connect ones.

The Heathrow Connect Class 360s are reportedly in almost as poor condition (maintenance wise) as the Class 332s.

Also, what's the point in a microfleet of five-car units? Wouldn't help GWR to operate more twelve-car trains.

Class 170101 · 11 Jan 2020

D365 said:
Also, what's the point in a microfleet of five-car units? Wouldn't help GWR to operate more twelve-car trains.

2*5 equals 10 though. Secondly how much capacity is lost (if any) between a 10 car Class 360 and a 12 car Class 387?

Mag_seven · 11 Jan 2020

MarlowDonkey said:
I think it always was the plan to borrow some London area 387s for big events in Cardiff and run them as 12 coaches. It requires being able to use electric under the low bridge at Staverton and having the power on through the Severn tunnel.

I think you mean "Steventon"? If so there is no ban to electric traction there. It is actually being discussed in the Great Western Electrification thread:

JN114 said:
There is wire under the bridge - having wire there was never the problem.

The issue is that to get through the bridge, but then be high enough over the virtually adjacent level crossing, the gradient of the wire relative to the track was extreme - way beyond the system design limits for UKS1 OHLE.

Very steep relative wire gradient is a problem as either - the pan can’t react fast enough and becomes detached from the wires; or in the opposite direction suffers too much compression force and suffers damage.

Simulation and Modelling initially suggested 60mph was the maximum “safe” speed at that wire gradient, and so an EMU60/125 speed limit was installed under the bridge. As IETs could go significantly faster on diesel they were doing changeover, while the 387 ECS moves to Cocklebury EMU Sidings crawled under the bridge. Further modelling and some verification runs showed that if all parties accepted a higher degree of wear to some components 110mph would be possible. Hitachi, GWR and Network Rail agreed and so the speed limit was increased to 110 for all trains under the bridge, and changeover equipment removed for use elsewhere.

43096 · 11 Jan 2020

Class 170101 said:
GA ones yes I don't think the same can be said for the Heathrow Connect ones.

Yes, but the post I replied to specifically said the GA ones.

swt_passenger · 11 Jan 2020

43096 said:
Because the proposal is for “crowd busting” trains when there are events on in Cardiff (Wales vs England rugby, for example), much of this requirement will be off peak at weekends etc when fewer units are needed in the Thames Valley.

As for your suggestion of 360s, they’re going to EMR.

Well of course, but please bear in mind you were replying to a post from 18 months ago, and that EMR use wasn’t public knowledge back then...

JN114 · 11 Jan 2020

There is no safety case for GWR operation of >12 car formations of 387s.

12s look to be the sensible option. As for traincrew route knowledge, LTV Paddington already sign Paddington to Bristol Parkway and 387s, so the conversion to include Cardiff won’t be too arduous. Guards will have to be trained as currently 387s operate DOO-only, but doing so west of Didcot in passenger service would be a breach of current crewing agreements.

Severn Tunnel OHCR still needs to be signed off for use in passenger service, and some compatibility testing (platform stepping distances etc) needs to be done before EIS.

Meerkat · 12 Jan 2020

Would there be any issues with going through the tunnel with 1,000 on board - would be one hell of an evacuation! Maybe restrict to seated only?

JN114 · 12 Jan 2020

Meerkat said:
Would there be any issues with going through the tunnel with 1,000 on board - would be one hell of an evacuation! Maybe restrict to seated only?

No different from tube or Thameslink that carry that many in much longer tunnels than Severn

Fincra5 · 12 Jan 2020

Meerkat said:
Would there be any issues with going through the tunnel with 1,000 on board - would be one hell of an evacuation! Maybe restrict to seated only?

That the same if you had to unload a 9 or 10 coach IET in the tunnel, that is Full & Standing...

Meerkat · 12 Jan 2020

JN114 said:
No different from tube or Thameslink that carry that many in much longer tunnels than Severn

Very different! What’s the longest distance from a station a tube train can be stuck underground? Plus far more fire/police/ambulance services in close vicinity. You can walk the passengers to the nearest station then most of them will self disperse via a myriad of travel options including walking. That ain’t happening at Pilning!
Imagine trying to control 1,000 cramped, pissed, rugby fans in the Severn Tunnel if the power failed! They would probably start trying to push the train out....

JN114 · 12 Jan 2020

It’s nowhere near the first time 1000 passenger trains have run through the Severn Tunnel. There are regular evacuation exercises, all the various involved agencies are well-practised and well-prepared for such an eventuality.

dmncf · 13 Jan 2020

anamyd said:
View attachment 72581
(Click/tap to view) Apologies if there's a newer thread and I couldn't find it, but I just saw this at Cardiff Central - a sign/board that says (to quote the relevant text) "Class 387 - Access to Brickyard and line A only".

Thanks for the photo. I'm really impressed by this. I think in some parts of the rail industry, people would have argued that it wasn't worthwhile getting clearance to operate 387s to Cardiff for special events only, and found numerous reasons for not doing it. Good effort, GWR!

anamyd · 14 Jan 2020

dmncf said:
Thanks for the photo. I'm really impressed by this. I think in some parts of the rail industry, people would have argued that it wasn't worthwhile getting clearance to operate 387s to Cardiff for special events only, and found numerous reasons for not doing it. Good effort, GWR!

Welcome

jimm · 14 Jan 2020

dmncf said:
Thanks for the photo. I'm really impressed by this. I think in some parts of the rail industry, people would have argued that it wasn't worthwhile getting clearance to operate 387s to Cardiff for special events only, and found numerous reasons for not doing it. Good effort, GWR!

It was a bit of no-brainer really, as it means no longer having to hire in locos and coaches to provide extras, at considerable expense, and which cause pathing issues, all the more so with the new IET timetable, and makes use of emus that are already on GWR's books and would otherwise be kicking their heels in Reading depot all day.

GWR 387’s to Cardiff??

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