ETCS expansion into London Bridge station

RichardGore · 28 Apr 2019

On passing through London Bridge recently I could not help but notice an ETCS block marker within the station, as well as a number of end of cab signalling signs on the approach (and one on the curve from Blackfriars to Cannon St) which were not there before.

I recall the limits of ETCS being just the Thameslink core itself; how far is it expanding now and is there any public documentation on what the ETCS rollout plans actually are?

Thanks in advance!

RailUK Forums

swt_passenger · 28 Apr 2019

RichardGore said:
On passing through London Bridge recently I could not help but notice an ETCS block marker within the station, as well as a number of end of cab signalling signs on the approach (and one on the curve from Blackfriars to Cannon St) which were not there before.

I recall the limits of ETCS being just the Thameslink core itself; how far is it expanding now and is there any public documentation on what the ETCS rollout plans actually are?

Thanks in advance!

There’s a Network Change Notice about this - probably linked in an previous thread. The south end ETCS boundaries are definitely wider than just Blackfriars. Will try and find it in the morning.

Meanwhile this rail engineer magazine article includes an ETCS/ATO coverage schematic:
https://www.railengineer.co.uk/2017/03/22/thameslink-signalling-update/

westcoaster · 28 Apr 2019

It now extends to the London end off the bermondsay flyover.

collexions · 28 Apr 2019

ETCS covers the Thameslink Core South workstation area extension through lines 4 and 5 to beyond Bermondsey Diveunder.
Also provided at London Bridge platform 3 (Cannon Street workstation) and platform 6 (Charing Cross workstation) for operational flexibility if issue at LB dedicated Thameslink platforms 4&5.

RichardN · 29 Apr 2019

Any idea when the ETCS/ATO will be going live? My understanding is that the colour light signals will be showing flashing single yellows when ATO is active. Since every time I go that way I see normal colour light operation I guess it isn't in normal use yet.

swt_passenger · 29 Apr 2019

RichardN said:
Any idea when the ETCS/ATO will be going live? My understanding is that the colour light signals will be showing flashing single yellows when ATO is active. Since every time I go that way I see normal colour light operation I guess it isn't in normal use yet.

From all the previous discussions, which will be buried in one of the Thameslink threads, ATO is not required until the 24 tph peak service becomes the normal situation, and is definitely not in normal day to day use now. But it has been successfully tested and demonstrated in public service over the section between St Pancras and Blackfriars.

Bald Rick · 29 Apr 2019

ETCS/ATO is live. It’s just not being used.

The signals won’t be flashing yellow either. They will be lit as normal.Not sure where that suggestion comes from.

aleggatta · 29 Apr 2019

Bald Rick said:
ETCS/ATO is live. It’s just not being used.

The signals won’t be flashing yellow either. They will be lit as normal.Not sure where that suggestion comes from.

I think the suggestion might have come from the thought a train having to pass a 'danger' signal trackside when they might be receiving a 'proceed' aspect in-cab?

carriageline · 29 Apr 2019

collexions said:
ETCS covers the Thameslink Core South workstation area extension through lines 4 and 5 to beyond Bermondsey Diveunder.
Also provided at London Bridge platform 3 (Cannon Street workstation) and platform 6 (Charing Cross workstation) for operational flexibility if issue at LB dedicated Thameslink platforms 4&5.

Just a minor correction! It isn’t provided through 3 & 6. The train will transition out if signalled into either of these platforms.

carriageline · 29 Apr 2019

westcoaster said:
It now extends to the London end off the bermondsay flyover.

Has the London Bridge bit been commissioned now? I know it cut off at Blackfriars Junction before

RichardGore · 29 Apr 2019

swt_passenger said:
From all the previous discussions, which will be buried in one of the Thameslink threads, ATO is not required until the 24 tph peak service becomes the normal situation, and is definitely not in normal day to day use now. But it has been successfully tested and demonstrated in public service over the section between St Pancras and Blackfriars.

It still seems odd to me that drivers are not using it to gain familiarity, since it’s there anyway.

collexions · 29 Apr 2019

carriageline said:
Just a minor correction! It isn’t provided through 3 & 6. The train will transition out if signalled into either of these platforms.

Block markers removed from platforms 3&6 between scheme plan version 2.1 & 2.2 (current approved version 2.3). Misunderstanding as we're still instructed to 2.1!

RichardN · 29 Apr 2019

The remarks about yellow signals come from me getting confused by https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/etcs-level-2-rollout.141477/page-3 I think...

Bald Rick · 29 Apr 2019

carriageline said:
Has the London Bridge bit been commissioned now? I know it cut off at Blackfriars Junction before

Don’t know to be honest. But it’s certanly live through the core.

Bald Rick · 29 Apr 2019

RichardGore said:
It still seems odd to me that drivers are not using it to gain familiarity, since it’s there anyway.

The drivers aren’t trained yet....

RichardGore · 29 Apr 2019

Bald Rick said:
The drivers aren’t trained yet....

Sure, but they could be? Forgive me if I am wildly misunderstanding the situation but they must be trained eventually; now is as good a time as any, well in advance of the new timetable. It is not my impression that GTR has cash flow issues, and having all the drivers already trained and very well familiar with ETCS/ATO having operated with it for months to years by the time it becomes strictly necessary seems to me prudent.

Bald Rick · 29 Apr 2019

RichardGore said:
Sure, but they could be? Forgive me if I am wildly misunderstanding the situation but they must be trained eventually; now is as good a time as any, well in advance of the new timetable. It is not my impression that GTR has cash flow issues, and having all the drivers already trained and very well familiar with ETCS/ATO having operated with it for months to years by the time it becomes strictly necessary seems to me prudent.

I don’t know the current situation, but I expect that Thameslink still has plenty of driver trying to do for route knowledge, and that will take priority before the ATO training. Someone with better knowledge than I will en able to advise how long the ETCS conversion is, but I should imagine it is fairly substantial. With 800+ drivers to get through, that is a big ask of the trainers.

ATO is only a 2 day course I think, though. At one point there was a suggestion that the training would only be for ATO, ie drivers would not be trained for driving under ETCS without ATO. Not sure what the end result was.

FOH · 11 Jan 2020

Interesting experience on a 700 this morning. Long hold at London Bridge. Once underway the driver announced apologies with a really informative announcement saying the train software had switched into the wrong mode which allows in cab signalling that is being introduced during the year but that he hadn't yet been trained in it so had to reset the system once at London Bridge, hence the delay.
I always assumed the switch to ATO was via a button but perhaps it can be automatic as well and the computer got ahead of itself.

Need2 · 11 Jan 2020

FOH said:
Interesting experience on a 700 this morning. Long hold at London Bridge. Once underway the driver announced apologies with a really informative announcement saying the train software had switched into the wrong mode which allows in cab signalling that is being introduced during the year but that he hadn't yet been trained in it so had to reset the system once at London Bridge, hence the delay.
I always assumed the switch to ATO was via a button but perhaps it can be automatic as well and the computer got ahead of itself.

Or he forgot to (or notice it hadn't been done when he took over the train) 'inhibit' the ato system.

Bald Rick · 11 Jan 2020

FOH said:
Interesting experience on a 700 this morning. Long hold at London Bridge. Once underway the driver announced apologies with a really informative announcement saying the train software had switched into the wrong mode which allows in cab signalling that is being introduced during the year but that he hadn't yet been trained in it so had to reset the system once at London Bridge, hence the delay.
I always assumed the switch to ATO was via a button but perhaps it can be automatic as well and the computer got ahead of itself.

Need2 said:
Or he forgot to (or notice it hadn't been done when he took over the train) 'inhibit' the ato system.

It’s sort of automatic. AIUI if a driver is driving a train with ATO active, it is triggered by a Balise (actually, two) on the approach to the core to contact the Block Centre. The driver has to either accept or inhibit the transition. If he/she does neither, then a quick reset is required.

jeff_44 · 7 May 2020

Bald Rick said:
I don’t know the current situation, but I expect that Thameslink still has plenty of driver trying to do for route knowledge, and that will take priority before the ATO training. Someone with better knowledge than I will en able to advise how long the ETCS conversion is, but I should imagine it is fairly substantial. With 800+ drivers to get through, that is a big ask of the trainers.

ATO is only a 2 day course I think, though. At one point there was a suggestion that the training would only be for ATO, ie drivers would not be trained for driving under ETCS without ATO. Not sure what the end result was.

Driver training was due to commence but COVID-19 has delayed the process. Once SD measures allow, the drivers will be trained (conversion course is approx a week, 2 days classroom and PH over 2/3 days)

System is ready to go and is in use regularly now b by the limited trained staff, with services running in L2 and ATO every day.

ETCS expansion into London Bridge station

Member

RailUK Forums

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Member

Member

Veteran Member

New Member