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Burton first early morning northbound

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trentvalley

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Currently the first northbound service from Burton on Trent is the 0650 to Nottingham which imo is quite late for a first service of the day compared to several other places including the southbound first service which is the 0620.

There are 2 ECS moves northbound to Derby earlier, one that is timed to pass at 0534 which forms the 0559 from Derby to Newcastle and the other is timed to pass at 0538 which forms the 0600 from Derby to Nottingham.

What are the reasons that one or both cannot start from Burton?

Does some of the train crew only join at Derby?

Would EMR be reluctant to open Burton station earlier?

Anything else?
 
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30907

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Without inside knowledge, I would guess that only drivers are based at Barton, and XC trains without a guard can only run as Empty Coaching Stock.
 

louis97

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Could the crew not simply join at Burton instead of Derby?

The TMs for the 0559 Newcastle, 0600 Nottingham and one other train are all in a taxi from Birmingham to Derby. This taxi would need diverting to Burton to start one of the trains there. You would potentially need another taxi if the 0559 could not arrive into Derby early enough for the TM who works 0600.

the issue with that would be getting all the crew down to Burton, as well as a catering trolley. Assuming it is easier for them to board at Derby

Catering isn't an issue for these trains as neither have catering provided. Catering trolleys remain on Voyagers typically so no need to load a trolley anyway.
 

Bertie the bus

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The TMs for the 0559 Newcastle, 0600 Nottingham and one other train are all in a taxi from Birmingham to Derby. This taxi would need diverting to Burton to start one of the trains there. You would potentially need another taxi if the 0559 could not arrive into Derby early enough for the TM who works 0600.
I'm not sure you would need to either divert the taxi to run via Burton or run another taxi. There might be some strange railway agreements as to why you couldn't do it but running the taxi to Burton instead of Derby and the other crew travel on the train to Derby would seem like a perfectly acceptable way of doing it. However, I doubt there are anywhere near enough passengers wanting to travel from Burton at that time to make any changes worthwhile.
 

louis97

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I'm not sure you would need to either divert the taxi to run via Burton or run another taxi. There might be some strange railway agreements as to why you couldn't do it but running the taxi to Burton instead of Derby and the other crew travel on the train to Derby would seem like a perfectly acceptable way of doing it. However, I doubt there are anywhere near enough passengers wanting to travel from Burton at that time to make any changes worthwhile.
I didn't say divert the taxi via Burton, I said divert to Burton. I don't think Burton, with current opening times, would be open early enough for the train to run anyway.
 
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OrangeJuice

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I may be missing something - however, looking at RTT for Tuesday, it appears that only XC services call there - am I correct?

Cross Country don't operate any stations they're all staffed by other operators even if only XC services call there
 

satisnek

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Would I be right in saying that Burton is quite self-contained in terms of employment and so has limited commuter traffic? Therefore there wouldn't be much demand for early morning trains?
 

edwin_m

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Would I be right in saying that Burton is quite self-contained in terms of employment and so has limited commuter traffic? Therefore there wouldn't be much demand for early morning trains?
Based on the fairly rare occasions I use them in peak times, there is commuting from Burton into Birmingham. Living in Nottingham I virtually never use them the other way round, but I would guess the commuter market into Derby is much smaller and Nottingham is a bit too far for heavy commuter flows.
 

DarloRich

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What would be the point? Burton is a small and relatively insignificant place. How many passngers, the op included, would this attract?
 

trentvalley

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What would be the point? Burton is a small and relatively insignificant place. How many passngers, the op included, would this attract?

Probably not many but surely the cost is negligible if any.

The train already go's through the station, the crew are taxi'd from Birmingham past Burton to Derby so would be a saving there surely.

Burton can't be that insignificant to Cross Country as they stop long distance trains there in rotation with Tamworth (which should have much greater connectivity with the West coast than it currently does)
 

Adam0984

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TMs cant join the train at Burton due to cash handling regulations and presumably not a relieving point
 

clagmonster

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The TMs for the 0559 Newcastle, 0600 Nottingham and one other train are all in a taxi from Birmingham to Derby. This taxi would need diverting to Burton to start one of the trains there.
Interesting, is there no XC train crew depot at Derby these days? Surprising taxi move.

Presumably the drivers for the ecs are taxied to Central Rivers from either New St or Derby. If it were deemed warranted to start on of the trains at Burton, would it be possible for a guard to also be in one of those taxis, subject to capacity?

On a similar note, do any drivers have a night turn whereby they work a train to Central Rivers, pnb there then work a train back out early doors?
 

satisnek

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Based on the fairly rare occasions I use them in peak times, there is commuting from Burton into Birmingham. Living in Nottingham I virtually never use them the other way round, but I would guess the commuter market into Derby is much smaller and Nottingham is a bit too far for heavy commuter flows.
Yes, I thought that there must be some commuting towards Birmingham - and doubtless a much greater amount from Tamworth, which will fill the trains!

I've just checked the times of the first trains from Kidderminster - similar catchment but much more of a dormitory area. First train to Birmingham is 0548, but there's nothing in the Worcester direction until 0647.
 

43055

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Would I be right in saying that Burton is quite self-contained in terms of employment and so has limited commuter traffic? Therefore there wouldn't be much demand for early morning trains?
There is a big commuter market towards Birmingham which in the morning trains run approx. every 15 minuets but the other way it is still just the 170's and occasional Long distance services but still is well loaded.

One option is to have the 0603 of Birmingham stop at Tamworth and Burton which would bring forward the first Northbound to around 0625ish.
 

DannyMich2018

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Currently the first northbound service from Burton on Trent is the 0650 to Nottingham which imo is quite late for a first service of the day compared to several other places including the southbound first service which is the 0620.

There are 2 ECS moves northbound to Derby earlier, one that is timed to pass at 0534 which forms the 0559 from Derby to Newcastle and the other is timed to pass at 0538 which forms the 0600 from Derby to Nottingham.

What are the reasons that one or both cannot start from Burton?

Does some of the train crew only join at Derby?

Would EMR be reluctant to open Burton station earlier?

Anything else?
Burton is in fact a very large town and is certainly one of the larger towns in Staffordshire I am sure there would be some demand for an early train to Derby/Nottingham, my town, Hinckley has a first train to Leicester at 05.46 and to Birmingham at 06.38 (weekdays), Hinckley is much smaller than Burton. Oddly, the first train of the day to Birmingham on a Saturday is half an hour earlier than in the week!!
 
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