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New trains for East Midlands Franchise

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43055

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What are the diagrams on the derby - crewe like now? Any different since the PRM deadline past?
Today the Crewe line had two 2x153 pairs and a 156 (0658 Crewe-Derby was 153308 on its own but joined by another with on arrival at Derby). By the looks of things the workings haven't changed as such so the Moring/Evening 158 should still occur.
 
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RealTrains07

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Today the Crewe line had two 2x153 pairs and a 156 (0658 Crewe-Derby was 153308 on its own but joined by another with on arrival at Derby). By the looks of things the workings haven't changed as such so the Moring/Evening 158 should still occur.
The 156 + 153 diagrams should hopefully start soon
 

Failed Unit

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But where are the 'spare' Electrostars to replace those on existing duties to release the Class 171s?
I suspect in reality they will stay with gtr and the 158s will stay with EMR.

it is nice not to see solo 153s. It is a shame they can’t force greater anglia to release the 156s even if they replace them with 153s. EMR are again getting very harshly treated out of the 755 situation.
 

OTRail

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I suspect in reality they will stay with gtr and the 158s will stay with EMR.

it is nice not to see solo 153s. It is a shame they can’t force greater anglia to release the 156s even if they replace them with 153s. EMR are again getting very harshly treated out of the 755 situation.

I doubt the 171s and 158s will stay as is considering Southern apparently want to remove diesel trains and EMR want a full fleet replacement.

Maybe the 379s GA release will be used? Or the 707s fitted with battery packs?
 

Qwerty133

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I suspect in reality they will stay with gtr and the 158s will stay with EMR.

it is nice not to see solo 153s. It is a shame they can’t force greater anglia to release the 156s even if they replace them with 153s. EMR are again getting very harshly treated out of the 755 situation.
I strongly suspect in the current political climate that if battery trains are found to be unviable for Southern the EMR 158s will be swapped with the 171s to show that the south doesn't automatically get priority.
 

Failed Unit

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I strongly suspect in the current political climate that if battery trains are found to be unviable for Southern the EMR 158s will be swapped with the 171s to show that the south doesn't automatically get priority.
But EMR still have got the interim trains. They are still with Greater Anglia as the South is getting automatic priority.

However personally I would be happy with 158s. Refurbished they are decent units. With the advantages of corridor connections. But then as an area used to 153s anything is an improvement.
 

Domh245

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But EMR still have got the interim trains. They are still with Greater Anglia as the South is getting automatic priority.

However personally I would be happy with 158s. Refurbished they are decent units. With the advantages of corridor connections. But then as an area used to 153s anything is an improvement.

With regards to the local DMU issue, let's not forget that EMR will be trialling hydrogen fuel cell trains at some point (although whose hydrogen fuel cell trains these are remains to be seen!) - if successful those could always be used to get rid of any 158s not displaced by 170s
 

Failed Unit

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With regards to the local DMU issue, let's not forget that EMR will be trialling hydrogen fuel cell trains at some point (although whose hydrogen fuel cell trains these are remains to be seen!) - if successful those could always be used to get rid of any 158s not displaced by 170s

I bet the donor will be an ex LU district line train. ;) or 319

be interesting where that goes to be honest. We don’t really see many hydrogen buses. (But London has a few). Very interesting from a technical point of view with a lot of challenges to overcome.
 

Domh245

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I bet the donor will be an ex LU district line train. ;) or 319

be interesting where that goes to be honest. We don’t really see many hydrogen buses. (But London has a few). Very interesting from a technical point of view with a lot of challenges to overcome.

There's the eversholt/alstom attempt as well using a 321 although they've not yet been able to make a prototype with the entire fleet still in passenger use with Greater Anglia! The 321 'breeze' may be the more suitable of the lot given the renatus program - at least from the point of view of fitting air con!
 

tbtc

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If you want to play "fantasy swaps" then what about the Northern 170s going to EMR to directly replace the 158s?

Northern don't really need the 170s (as they've got 195s for the longer distance services - e.g. Bradford to Nottingham), a bigger fleet of common 158s may be a lot more useful to them.

Otherwise, I'm not sure that Northern are going to need the EMR 158s - AIUI there's requirement in the Northern franchise for a number of modern DMUs (I think it's worded as being "similar"/"equivalent" to a 185?) but 158s wouldn't fit that requirement, so the prospect of getting EMR units would have to be on top of the units mentioned in the franchise requirements.

(that's assuming that we don't get a "DOR" version of Northern which rips up the requirements of the current franchise, of course)
 

RealTrains07

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I doubt the 171s and 158s will stay as is considering Southern apparently want to remove diesel trains and EMR want a full fleet replacement.

Maybe the 379s GA release will be used? Or the 707s fitted with battery packs?
Even though GTR/Southern still have yet to make a statement saying the 171s are going to EMR and what they will be replaced with?
 

hooverboy

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If you want to play "fantasy swaps" then what about the Northern 170s going to EMR to directly replace the 158s?

Northern don't really need the 170s (as they've got 195s for the longer distance services - e.g. Bradford to Nottingham), a bigger fleet of common 158s may be a lot more useful to them.

Otherwise, I'm not sure that Northern are going to need the EMR 158s - AIUI there's requirement in the Northern franchise for a number of modern DMUs (I think it's worded as being "similar"/"equivalent" to a 185?) but 158s wouldn't fit that requirement, so the prospect of getting EMR units would have to be on top of the units mentioned in the franchise requirements.

(that's assuming that we don't get a "DOR" version of Northern which rips up the requirements of the current franchise, of course)

if we're doing fantasy swaps then why don't EMR get a compensation microfleet of 755/4s from GA for lending them the 156's(again)
GA can put in for a follow on order at a nice big discount, and EMR can run them/service them from norwich.

punters on that line will be extemely happy with a couple of brand spanking new trains,and it frees up the extra units that EMR need.
 

hwl

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There's the eversholt/alstom attempt as well using a 321 although they've not yet been able to make a prototype with the entire fleet still in passenger use with Greater Anglia! The 321 'breeze' may be the more suitable of the lot given the renatus program - at least from the point of view of fitting air con!
20m mk3 bodyshells don't fit though the Oxted Tunnel which rules out fair few options.

The options for Marshlink are far greater as it doesn't have the gauging issues.
 

Domh245

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20m mk3 bodyshells don't fit though the Oxted Tunnel which rules out fair few options.

The options for Marshlink are far greater as it doesn't have the gauging issues.

I was thinking more along the lines of 171s staying put at GTR and EMR getting the hydrogen units. Would be a more sensible approach because EMR would have already trialled one, plus it also then allows political trumpeting of investing in 30 year old stock with fuel cells strapped to them brand new trains for the Midlands.

Otherwise, I'm not sure that Northern are going to need the EMR 158s - AIUI there's requirement in the Northern franchise for a number of modern DMUs (I think it's worded as being "similar"/"equivalent" to a 185?) but 158s wouldn't fit that requirement, so the prospect of getting EMR units would have to be on top of the units mentioned in the franchise requirements.

"Performance and quality equivalent to a two car Class 170" - whether a slightly faster accelerating (but lower top speed) 158 would qualify remains to be seen (or if that requirement is still in place come whatever happens in a few months!)
 

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if we're doing fantasy swaps then why don't EMR get a compensation microfleet of 755/4s from GA for lending them the 156's(again)

The EMR fleet strategy makes sense to me - three distinct types of stock for three distinct types of services (other than the fact that some DMUs will be two coach and some three coach?) - so I don't think a microfleet of anything would help much - if there are some 755/4s then maybe we should just give the whole service east of Peterborough to GA - it could then interwork with (and be better co-ordinated with) their other self powered services through Ely. But that's going beyond the scope of this thread, so I'll shut up!

"Performance and quality equivalent to a two car Class 170" - whether a slightly faster accelerating (but lower top speed) 158 would qualify remains to be seen (or if that requirement is still in place come whatever happens in a few months!)

Thanks for clarifying - I'd remembered it wrong - The frustrating thing is that Northern just need more simple 75mph units - with 195s taking the "flagship" stuff there's not going to be much requirement for 100mph running on their other routes (and we've seen how the 170s struggle at stop/start services where acceleration is key) - I wouldn't be surprised if that commitment is binned off though
 

Adrian1980uk

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EMR / DFT should have bit the bullet and ordered a regional Fleet of 755s like GA, that would have ended the conversation on the regional Fleet for a generation as it will now not be ideal until the next franchise.
 

Roast Veg

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There's nothing particularly terrible with a mixed 170/158 fleet, other than some maintenance expense and double the traction knowledge. The 171s really can wait in the grand scheme of things.
 

OTRail

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The Central Trains franchise used a mix of 170s and 158s on regional express services (i.e. Liverpool to Norwich) and it worked well, particularly because they both had BSI couplings.
 

MatthewRead

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20m mk3 bodyshells don't fit though the Oxted Tunnel which rules out fair few options.

The options for Marshlink are far greater as it doesn't have the gauging issues.
The Oxted tunnel isn't the only one with gauging issues there's another one on the Uckfield line.
 
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