Signal reverting to red at station

ic31420 · 11 Jan 2020

I was at Bolton Station a few days ago heading north. A Southport train departs and the platform end signal progressively clears to double yellow about 3mins later a tpx Glasgow train arrives, stops and loads.

The platform end signal is green and the station staff give the train the wave to leave but the guard doesn't take the tip and remains on the platform. The platform staff walk down and speak with them.

It appears that between the platform staff looking and raising his batton the signal has gone back to red.

Much discussing amongst staff and telephone calls and the signal clears again and the train departs.

What would be the likely cause of the signal reverting then clearing.

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LowLevel · 11 Jan 2020

ic31420 said:
I was at Bolton Station a few days ago heading north. A Southport train departs and the platform end signal progressively clears to double yellow about 3mins later a tpx Glasgow train arrives, stops and loads.

The platform end signal is green and the station staff give the train the wave to leave but the guard doesn't take the tip and remains on the platform. The platform staff walk down and speak with them.

It appears that between the platform staff looking and raising his batton the signal has gone back to red.

Much discussing amongst staff and telephone calls and the signal clears again and the train departs.

What would be the likely cause of the signal reverting then clearing.

Equipment failure, signaller's error, a situation being reported requiring the train to be stopped for reason due to a problem ahead - how long is a piece of string! It happens, whenever it's happened to me it's been the signaller pulling the route by mistake except once when a track circuit failure caused a reversion.

Speak to the box, report the issue to them in case they're not aware of it (a track circuit momentarily failing and then working again will cause a change of aspect that depending on the location and equipment the signaller might not be aware of), check it's OK to proceed and be on your way.

Llama · 11 Jan 2020

ic31420 said:
I was at Bolton Station a few days ago heading north. A Southport train departs and the platform end signal progressively clears to double yellow about 3mins later a tpx Glasgow train arrives, stops and loads.

The platform end signal is green and the station staff give the train the wave to leave but the guard doesn't take the tip and remains on the platform. The platform staff walk down and speak with them.

It appears that between the platform staff looking and raising his batton the signal has gone back to red.

Much discussing amongst staff and telephone calls and the signal clears again and the train departs.

What would be the likely cause of the signal reverting then clearing.

I'd suggest maybe the driver was aware of a fault on his train, spoke to the box, got the signal put back while dealing with the fault (which turned out to be quick) and the guard was probably aware that this was the intention?

ic31420 · 11 Jan 2020

Would the driver use the onboard phone/ Comms to speak to thebox in this case?

It all seemed a bit of a suprise to the chap on the platform who I think was worried he'd dispatched against a red

PudseyBearHST · 11 Jan 2020

ic31420 said:
Would the driver use the onboard phone/ Comms to speak to thebox in this case?

It all seemed a bit of a suprise to the chap on the platform who I think was worried he'd dispatched against a red

GSMR radio to contact the signaller usually and onboard communications to contact the guard.

DennisM · 11 Jan 2020

I’d assume the most likely situation was that the driver was on the phone to the signaller as It was put back to danger, maybe to allow another train to leave first etc. Otherwise the train would’ve likely been delayed for significantly longer while the signal reverting to red was investigated.

I’ve had this happen when working as a guard, sometime after completing my station duties and re boarding the train the signal was set back. We had been signalled across onto the fast line, despite being a stopping service. As the driver called to inform me of his conversation with the signaller, the non stopping service came to a stand next to us, which had we continued ahead of it, would’ve been significantly delayed.

Y Ddraig Coch · 11 Jan 2020

DennisM said:
I’d assume the most likely situation was that the driver was on the phone to the signaller as It was put back to danger, maybe to allow another train to leave first etc. Otherwise the train would’ve likely been delayed for significantly longer while the signal reverting to red was investigated.

I’ve had this happen when working as a guard, sometime after completing my station duties and re boarding the train the signal was set back. We had been signalled across onto the fast line, despite being a stopping service. As the driver called to inform me of his conversation with the signaller, the non stopping service came to a stand next to us, which had we continued ahead of it, would’ve been significantly delayed.

Am I correct in thinking any lights reverting to danger outside of the station confines a conversation must take place between driver and signaller before he continues , even if it clears again?

DennisM · 11 Jan 2020

Y Ddraig Coch said:
Am I correct in thinking any lights reverting to danger outside of the station confines a conversation must take place between driver and signaller before he continues , even if it clears again?

Yes that’s right, any signal reverting to a more restrictive aspect ahead of a train, whether in a station or not, will result in the signaller being contacted and the train immediately brought to a stop if it’s moving. Any situation such as those mentioned are a signalling irregularity and require forms to be filled in by both driver and signaller. The only exception to this is where the driver is asked by the signaller if he can revert the signal ahead, as far as I’m aware this would only happen to a stationary train.

Y Ddraig Coch · 11 Jan 2020

DennisM said:
Yes that’s right, any signal reverting to a more restrictive aspect ahead of a train, whether in a station or not, will result in the signaller being contacted and the train immediately brought to a stop if it’s moving. Any situation such as those mentioned are a signalling irregularity and require forms to be filled in by both driver and signaller. The only exception to this is where the driver is asked by the signaller if he can revert the signal ahead, as far as I’m aware this would only happen to a stationary train.

Thanks for confirming.

Tomnick · 11 Jan 2020

DennisM said:
The only exception to this is where the driver is asked by the signaller if he can revert the signal ahead, as far as I’m aware this would only happen to a stationary train.

Not necessarily - I've had the signalman to contact me whilst on the move to ask whether I'd be able to stop at a particular signal so that he could replace it to danger and pull off for a different route (having already passed the signal that'd revert to double yellow). I'd got the brake in as soon as I received the 'contact signaller' message on GSM-R, so I was able to confirm that I would be able to stop, and he took the signal back just as I passed the one in rear. The signal cleared for the other route, having timed out, just as I came to a stand - perfect timing!

Y Ddraig Coch · 11 Jan 2020

Tomnick said:
Not necessarily - I've had the signalman to contact me whilst on the move to ask whether I'd be able to stop at a particular signal so that he could replace it to danger and pull off for a different route (having already passed the signal that'd revert to double yellow). I'd got the brake in as soon as I received the 'contact signaller' message on GSM-R, so I was able to confirm that I would be able to stop, and he took the signal back just as I passed the one in rear. The signal cleared for the other route, having timed out, just as I came to a stand - perfect timing!

Ok.... so, is this allowed to happen like this. Or...was it a signaller trying not to get himself in trouble for a mistake and thinking on his feet?

LAX54 · 11 Jan 2020

Y Ddraig Coch said:
Ok.... so, is this allowed to happen like this. Or...was it a signaller trying not to get himself in trouble for a mistake and thinking on his feet?

Sounds like a Signaller (or ARS) set a wrong route and was noticed early enough, so smart thinking by the Signaller, and an OK from the Driver.

Sometimes the Driver will call the Signaller if he can tell there is a wrong route ahead, far enough to get it altered, if for example the Driver knows his route as approach controlled, yet where there should be a DY or SY he gets a green, then he knows there is a problem, a quick GSM-R call and all is corrected

Tomnick · 11 Jan 2020

Y Ddraig Coch said:
Ok.... so, is this allowed to happen like this. Or...was it a signaller trying not to get himself in trouble for a mistake and thinking on his feet?

It wasn't a mistake. It was on the approach to a large station and something had happened (I think a shunt move had conked out in an awkward place) which meant that I'd probably end up stuck outside the station. Putting me through the loop instead kept things moving much more smoothly, and I don't think there was anything wrong with it.

Tomnick · 11 Jan 2020

swills said:
Sounds like a Signaller (or ARS) set a wrong route and was noticed early enough, so smart thinking by the Signaller, and an OK from the Driver.

Sometimes the Driver will call the Signaller if he can tell there is a wrong route ahead, far enough to get it altered, if for example the Driver knows his route as approach controlled, yet where there should be a DY or SY he gets a green, then he knows there is a problem, a quick GSM-R call and all is corrected

That too! An entirely sensible way of keeping the job moving without any drama. It'll never catch on nowadays

EvoIV · 12 Jan 2020

Unfortunately I've been on the wrong end of the above. Doing just that got my collar felt and the signaller in hot water. The delay attributors had been studying CCF replays for a different reason and noticed the change of route. This then led to all of the tapes being pulled and allegations of a wrong route offered cover up. Sometimes you just can't win. The daft thing is that either route was fine for my train but per my timings I was expecting the other route.

Y Ddraig Coch · 12 Jan 2020

EvoIV said:
Unfortunately I've been on the wrong end of the above. Doing just that got my collar felt and the signaller in hot water. The delay attributors had been studying CCF replays for a different reason and noticed the change of route. This then led to all of the tapes being pulled and allegations of a wrong route offered cover up. Sometimes you just can't win. The daft thing is that either route was fine for my train but per my timings I was expecting the other route.

What was the outcome of the allegations? I assume they didn't find you and the signaller guilty of a cover up did? Or did they?

Horizon22 · 12 Jan 2020

Sounds to me that this was due to some fault on the train; the guard didn't take the tip from the staff which means the guard was likely already aware they would not be departing by the driver. In that moment, the signaller was probably already in the process of reverting the signal to danger.

As someone said above, the "road being taken back" is a uncommon but not unknown action that platform staff have to be vigilant for

EvoIV · 18 Jan 2020

Y Ddraig Coch said:
What was the outcome of the allegations? I assume they didn't find you and the signaller guilty of a cover up did? Or did they?

No idea about the signaller, no action in the end in my part, think there was a feeling that most would've done the same thing and a comment that there was no real need for such officious intervention on the part of NR TDA and then LOM. Most front line staff are all on the same team, regardless of shirt worn, after all. Some disagree with that but we all do better when we work together rather than against each other. We are also all human and capable of small lapses, well most of us are anyway.

Surreytraveller · 18 Jan 2020

EvoIV said:
Unfortunately I've been on the wrong end of the above. Doing just that got my collar felt and the signaller in hot water. The delay attributors had been studying CCF replays for a different reason and noticed the change of route. This then led to all of the tapes being pulled and allegations of a wrong route offered cover up. Sometimes you just can't win. The daft thing is that either route was fine for my train but per my timings I was expecting the other route.

Surely that's not a wrong route? If you sign it, if the stock is cleared and the train can still get to its next calling point, its not a wrong route. It might not be the booked route, but its not a wrong route

221129 · 18 Jan 2020

Horizon22 said:
As someone said above, the "road being taken back" is a uncommon but not unknown action that platform staff have to be vigilant for

It's extremely common. That is why you need to check the signal before giving or receiving the second tip.

ComUtoR · 18 Jan 2020

Surreytraveller said:
It might not be the booked route, but its not a wrong route

Tricky to give a correct answer tbh.

We have more than a few routes that could technically get you to your next location but could cause all sorts of chaos. A couple could add an hour or more to your next stop. The one I challenged this week is a diversionary route that still would have taken me to my next station but in a very convoluted way and would pass few a few tricky junctions and add at least another 10 minutes easily. Technically not a 'wrong' route but still not the most logical or sensible one.

Its worth noting that there are diversionaries that are specifically listed in the sectional appendix that can be taken without being challenged.

The 'professional' thing to do would be to challenge the route and see what's happening.

Surreytraveller · 18 Jan 2020

ComUtoR said:
Tricky to give a correct answer tbh.

We have more than a few routes that could technically get you to your next location but could cause all sorts of chaos. A couple could add an hour or more to your next stop. The one I challenged this week is a diversionary route that still would have taken me to my next station but in a very convoluted way and would pass few a few tricky junctions and add at least another 10 minutes easily. Technically not a 'wrong' route but still not the most logical or sensible one.

The 'professional' thing to do would be to challenge the route and see what's happening.

Yes. On the Brighton Mainline, it is in the Sectional Appendix that you may accept a route along the Redhill Line vice Quarry and vice versa, if you're not booked to call at any intermediate stations, without querying it. But accepting the Redhill Line doesn't add anymore time (unless you get stuck behind a stopper!)

Tomnick · 18 Jan 2020

ComUtoR said:
Tricky to give a correct answer tbh.

We have more than a few routes that could technically get you to your next location but could cause all sorts of chaos. A couple could add an hour or more to your next stop. The one I challenged this week is a diversionary route that still would have taken me to my next station but in a very convoluted way and would pass few a few tricky junctions and add at least another 10 minutes easily. Technically not a 'wrong' route but still not the most logical or sensible one.

Its worth noting that there are diversionaries that are specifically listed in the sectional appendix that can be taken without being challenged.

The 'professional' thing to do would be to challenge the route and see what's happening.

It's an interesting one. The only way that we know which way we're booked is "via X" annotations on schedule cards. That's not shown for the 'normal' route. How is the 'normal' route defined? A colleague was put on a plan for accepting a wrong but quite reasonable route over a diversion with an ECS train, STP schedule, to an unusual destination. I'd quite like to see (from a safe distance) that one put properly to the test though

I'll save the possibility of a train being shown as 'via X', as usual for that train, but that information (routinely) not being shown on the guard's job card, for another day. (Spoiler: the guard didn't sign via X...)

ComUtoR · 18 Jan 2020

Tomnick said:
It's an interesting one. The only way that we know which way we're booked is "via X" annotations on schedule cards.

Some of our depots have them printed like that but others don't. I prefer them with the booked junctions etc fully printed.

That's not shown for the 'normal' route. How is the 'normal' route defined?

Some are pretty obvious. Others you rely on experience.

A colleague was put on a plan for accepting a wrong but quite reasonable route over a diversion with an ECS train, STP schedule, to an unusual destination. I'd quite like to see (from a safe distance) that one put properly to the test though

There was one we had whe.... [redacted]

Signal reverting to red at station

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