Class 304 EMUs

shinymac · 8 Jan 2020

For those of you interested about his 50 year career on the footplate and in the cab...there is a brief synopsis of Les Jackson my mate, by clicking on the following links...

http://www.cumbria-railways.co.uk/les-jackson-retired-engine-driver.html
http://www.cumbria-railways.co.uk/les-jackson-bletchley-MPD-1953.pdf

and this link SHOULD bring to you an excerpt from a book about the "Duchess" class of steam loco that Les had been asked to write for it, as Les was in the "Crewe to Perth" firemans link at Crewe MPD at the time....

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...#v=onepage&q=les jackson train driver&f=false

And in the Summer months you can still find him driving steam trains...here......

http://www.rvlr.co.uk/talesFromTheFootplate.php

He is one hell of a guy, and at 82 whenever I phone him he remembers it all like it was yesterday !

Enjoy

Derek
Cumbria

RailUK Forums

krus_aragon · 9 Jan 2020

WesternLancer said:
Obv the only solution to this typiing issue dilemma is for you to sit down whilst Les has a tipple of his choice, tells you the story and you type it up for us to read and enjoy!

Sounds good, but unless you're a very fast typist @shinymac, it might be even better to record Les telling his story, and type it up at your own pace afterward.

AM9 · 9 Jan 2020

john prytherch said:
... I expect there was lots of slipping climbing Shap.

John Prytherch.

Not necessarily, the class 304's siblings, (305 and 308, plus their older relatives the 307s), would climb Brentwood band daily, - fully loaded with peak-hour passengers, and most trains were attacking the 1:80 from a standing start at Brentwood station. Even with a flying start, the fasts were committed to over 3 miles of 1:100 average from Harold Hill northwards.

WesternLancer · 9 Jan 2020

shinymac said:
For those of you interested about his 50 year career on the footplate and in the cab...there is a brief synopsis of Les Jackson my mate, by clicking on the following links...

http://www.cumbria-railways.co.uk/les-jackson-retired-engine-driver.html
http://www.cumbria-railways.co.uk/les-jackson-bletchley-MPD-1953.pdf

and this link SHOULD bring to you an excerpt from a book about the "Duchess" class of steam loco that Les had been asked to write for it, as Les was in the "Crewe to Perth" firemans link at Crewe MPD at the time....

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UIVVCwAAQBAJ&pg=PT78&lpg=PT78&dq=les+jackson+train+driver&source=bl&ots=KXtvJCm_bE&sig=ACfU3U08_yZ6Uaj9vEUQNUyLIyASh1qpYg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiV5cP-j_XmAhXRQkEAHUzxCgMQ6AEwAnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=les jackson train driver&f=false

And in the Summer months you can still find him driving steam trains...here......

http://www.rvlr.co.uk/talesFromTheFootplate.php

He is one hell of a guy, and at 82 whenever I phone him he remembers it all like it was yesterday !

Enjoy

Derek
Cumbria

Thanks for those links Derek - some good reads there! As you are in touch be sure to thank Les for recording them and getting those stories written down. It's really valuable when people do that, which takes time - very nice work - and as time goes by the more and more important the recollections are.

Obv those stories look like steam era ones (have only read 2 so far and look forward to reading more), so anything from the 'post steam' era would be equally interesting to those of us interested in that as well.

Maybe like krus-aragon says - record Les if he was up for it? I wish I'd recorded some of the stories older members of my family told me for example.

As an aside I always found those AM EMUs interesting. having grown up on the SR I was fully familiar with all the SR design EMUs but these LMR ones were foreign territory to me - so didn't travel on them often and found them an interesting change. I also liked the somewhat 60s style of the front ends - although they were not the most stylish of multiple units by any means i always thought they had an interesting look about them. I wish now I'd had more time / money to have traveled on them back in the day.

Shame it seems none are really properly preserved in any decent condition.

AM9 · 9 Jan 2020

WesternLancer said:
Thanks for those links Derek - some good reads there! As you are in touch be sure to thank Les for recording them and getting those stories written down. It's really valuable when people do that, which takes time - very nice work - and as time goes by the more and more important the recollections are.

Obv those stories look like steam era ones (have only read 2 so far and look forward to reading more), so anything from the 'post steam' era would be equally interesting to those of us interested in that as well.

Maybe like krus-aragon says - record Les if he was up for it? I wish I'd recorded some of the stories older members of my family told me for example.

As an aside I always found those AM EMUs interesting. having grown up on the SR I was fully familiar with all the SR design EMUs but these LMR ones were foreign territory to me - so didn't travel on them often and found them an interesting change. I also liked the somewhat 60s style of the front ends - although they were not the most stylish of multiple units by any means i always thought they had an interesting look about them. I wish now I'd had more time / money to have traveled on them back in the day.

Shame it seems none are really properly preserved in any decent condition.

Conversely I've spent far too much time on them. The 17:42 ex Liverpool St. reached Shenfield at 18:10 where I boarded it. It travelled all stops to Colchester, arriving at there around 18:55 after a long bumpy, often stuffy journey. Compared with 321s today, the BR non-corridor MKI EMUs were like horse carts with clunky double bolster bogies designed in the '20s, and seats that might have been suitable when brand new, but became most uncomfortable after a few months wear.

WesternLancer · 9 Jan 2020

AM9 said:
Conversely I've spent far too much time on them. The 17:42 ex Liverpool St. reached Shenfield at 18:10 where I boarded it. It travelled all stops to Colchester, arriving at there around 18:55 after a long bumpy, often stuffy journey. Compared with 321s today, the BR non-corridor MKI EMUs were like horse carts with clunky double bolster bogies designed in the '20s, and seats that might have been suitable when brand new, but became most uncomfortable after a few months wear.

No doubt! I sort of used to feel that way about 4 VEPS! (little risk of it being stuffy on a VEP though!)

shinymac · 10 Jan 2020

Hi Western Lancer

Thanks for the kind comments about Les.

He is still full of vitality and enthusiasm for his one time job, and whenever I phone him he regails me with many stories, right up to driving HSTs to Holyhead, and Class 87s to Euston. He finished his days working for DRS, with jobs from Crewe that took him at times as far away as Bridgwater. But in steam days he could easily exceed that with his steam jobs to places like Perth ! His claim to fame was that he drove "Duchess of Hamilton" from Crewe to Carlisle on her farewell tour up to Scotland and back down the East Coast to enter the NRM at York. He was met with a piper at Carlisle Station ! (and his fireman was probably met with an ambulance !! Lol ! ).

I will see what can be done relating to getting les' memoirs into print. I have just recently started approaching various Steam Magazines to see if they would be interested in them, but so far havent been met with much positive response which is odd !

Thanks again

Derek

6Gman · 10 Jan 2020

shinymac said:
Hi Western Lancer

Thanks for the kind comments about Les.

He is still full of vitality and enthusiasm for his one time job, and whenever I phone him he regails me with many stories, right up to driving HSTs to Holyhead, and Class 87s to Euston. He finished his days working for DRS, with jobs from Crewe that took him at times as far away as Bridgwater. But in steam days he could easily exceed that with his steam jobs to places like Perth ! His claim to fame was that he drove "Duchess of Hamilton" from Crewe to Carlisle on her farewell tour up to Scotland and back down the East Coast to enter the NRM at York. He was met with a piper at Carlisle Station ! (and his fireman was probably met with an ambulance !! Lol ! ).

I will see what can be done relating to getting les' memoirs into print. I have just recently started approaching various Steam Magazines to see if they would be interested in them, but so far havent been met with much positive response which is odd !

Thanks again

Derek

Did I see a reference to his "firemen" in the article?

Call that a job ?

The old lads - one fireman to Perth - would have viewed two firemen to Carlisle as a breeze.

(I wonder if the Traction Inspector took a shift or two- they often did on such jobs)

WesternLancer · 10 Jan 2020

shinymac said:
Hi Western Lancer

Thanks for the kind comments about Les.

He is still full of vitality and enthusiasm for his one time job, and whenever I phone him he regails me with many stories, right up to driving HSTs to Holyhead, and Class 87s to Euston. He finished his days working for DRS, with jobs from Crewe that took him at times as far away as Bridgwater. But in steam days he could easily exceed that with his steam jobs to places like Perth ! His claim to fame was that he drove "Duchess of Hamilton" from Crewe to Carlisle on her farewell tour up to Scotland and back down the East Coast to enter the NRM at York. He was met with a piper at Carlisle Station ! (and his fireman was probably met with an ambulance !! Lol ! ).

I will see what can be done relating to getting les' memoirs into print. I have just recently started approaching various Steam Magazines to see if they would be interested in them, but so far havent been met with much positive response which is odd !

Thanks again

Derek

It's great stuff - the advantage of decent forums like this and web pages is of course that you can good stories to an audience even if a published magazine would not tend to print them - stating the obvious I know. As I said, it's internet gold when some pic from years back is digitised and uploaded, only for a person in the pic to find themselves featured, as per this thread!

shinymac · 10 Jan 2020

Hi Chaps

MYSTERY SOLVED !

Les has looked at the photo that I was sent a link to on here, of the 304 sitting at Preston late at night heading for Carlisle....and......he WASNT the driver ! He thinks it may have been a "lookalike" Crewe driver called "Bill Overton" who passed away some time ago.

HOWEVER.....Les has checked his old diaries, and has found out the correct details for when he worked a 304 from Crewe to Carlisle...

The Date was Tuesday March 4th 1986.
The Unit No was 304041
The train...1L49 Relief Crewe to Carlisle
5L49 ECS Carlisle to Crewe.

Les had booked on around 2015hrs to work a job to Hereford. But the foreman asked him if he would work a relief to Carlisle instead. Les agreed, and he thinks he would have left Crewe with 304041 around 21.30hrs. He had a coffee break on arrival at Carlisle, and then worked 5L49 "ECS" back to Crewe, but gave two stranded girls a lift back to Crewe, as they had missed a train at Carlisle the previous evening, and were trying to get to Manchester Airport !

He cant quite remember the REASON for the relief train running, but tells me that records show that on and around that date in 1986 Britain was being battered by high winds, so it could have been running due to cancellations further south towards Euston ?

So I am sorry to have given the wrong info in my earlier posts, but at least we now know that there were at least TWO occasions when 304 EMUs worked to Carlisle !

Thanks again everyone !

Regards

Derek

WesternLancer · 10 Jan 2020

shinymac said:
Hi Chaps

MYSTERY SOLVED !

Les has looked at the photo that I was sent a link to on here, of the 304 sitting at Preston late at night heading for Carlisle....and......he WASNT the driver ! He thinks it may have been a "lookalike" Crewe driver called "Bill Overton" who passed away some time ago.

HOWEVER.....Les has checked his old diaries, and has found out the correct details for when he worked a 304 from Crewe to Carlisle...

The Date was Tuesday March 4th 1986.
The Unit No was 304041
The train...1L49 Relief Crewe to Carlisle
5L49 ECS Carlisle to Crewe.

Les had booked on around 2015hrs to work a job to Hereford. But the foreman asked him if he would work a relief to Carlisle instead. Les agreed, and he thinks he would have left Crewe with 304041 around 21.30hrs. He had a coffee break on arrival at Carlisle, and then worked 5L49 "ECS" back to Crewe, but gave two stranded girls a lift back to Crewe, as they had missed a train at Carlisle the previous evening, and were trying to get to Manchester Airport !

He cant quite remember the REASON for the relief train running, but tells me that records show that on and around that date in 1986 Britain was being battered by high winds, so it could have been running due to cancellations further south towards Euston ?

So I am sorry to have given the wrong info in my earlier posts, but at least we now know that there were at least TWO occasions when 304 EMUs worked to Carlisle !

Thanks again everyone !

Regards

Derek

Good info itself!

AndrewE · 10 Jan 2020

shinymac said:
5L49 "ECS" back to Crewe, but gave two stranded girls a lift back to Crewe, as they had missed a train at Carlisle the previous evening, and were trying to get to Manchester Airport

One for the "Things you used to see on BR (but don't now)" thread! Now tell me it is better nowadays...

randyrippley · 11 Jan 2020

shinymac said:
Hi Chaps

He cant quite remember the REASON for the relief train running, but tells me that records show that on and around that date in 1986 Britain was being battered by high winds, so it could have been running due to cancellations further south towards Euston ?

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_of_1985–86_in_Great_Britain_and_Ireland

March 1986 averaged at 4.9 °C (40.8 °F) which is 0.8 °C below the 1961-1990 average.[6] The cold weather of February persisted into early March, with blizzards in England on the 1st and a temperature of −16 °C (3.2 °F) recorded at Aviemore. The thaw began in all areas on the 4th. Later in the month it was very windy with a gust of 173 miles per hour (278.4 km/h) recorded on the 20th at Cairngorm

So the 4th was the day of a thaw after three days of snow.
Presumably there would have been a lot of out-of-place stock, and the timetable torn to shreds

delt1c · 11 Jan 2020

shinymac said:
Hi Chaps

MYSTERY SOLVED !

Les has looked at the photo that I was sent a link to on here, of the 304 sitting at Preston late at night heading for Carlisle....and......he WASNT the driver ! He thinks it may have been a "lookalike" Crewe driver called "Bill Overton" who passed away some time ago.

HOWEVER.....Les has checked his old diaries, and has found out the correct details for when he worked a 304 from Crewe to Carlisle...

The Date was Tuesday March 4th 1986.
The Unit No was 304041
The train...1L49 Relief Crewe to Carlisle
5L49 ECS Carlisle to Crewe.

Les had booked on around 2015hrs to work a job to Hereford. But the foreman asked him if he would work a relief to Carlisle instead. Les agreed, and he thinks he would have left Crewe with 304041 around 21.30hrs. He had a coffee break on arrival at Carlisle, and then worked 5L49 "ECS" back to Crewe, but gave two stranded girls a lift back to Crewe, as they had missed a train at Carlisle the previous evening, and were trying to get to Manchester Airport !

He cant quite remember the REASON for the relief train running, but tells me that records show that on and around that date in 1986 Britain was being battered by high winds, so it could have been running due to cancellations further south towards Euston ?

So I am sorry to have given the wrong info in my earlier posts, but at least we now know that there were at least TWO occasions when 304 EMUs worked to Carlisle !

Thanks again everyone !

Regards

Derek

Would be great to know how tyhe 304 performed especially over Shap. I am sure the passengers had a bouncy ride when it got up to speed

WesternLancer · 11 Jan 2020

delt1c said:
Would be great to know how tyhe 304 performed especially over Shap. I am sure the passengers had a bouncy ride when it got up to speed

Yes, I'd be v interested in Les' opinions on driving that over the route vs say an 86 or 87 (never mind a Duchess!!)

shinymac · 11 Jan 2020

AndrewE said:
One for the "Things you used to see on BR (but don't now)" thread! Now tell me it is better nowadays...

I quite agree. I personally had 44 years service on the railways myself, and favours like that were all part of "getting the job done" ! These days it would be frowned up to say the least !

Bald Rick · 12 Jan 2020

AndrewE said:
One for the "Things you used to see on BR (but don't now)" thread! Now tell me it is better nowadays...

shinymac said:
I quite agree. I personally had 44 years service on the railways myself, and favours like that were all part of "getting the job done" ! These days it would be frowned up to say the least !

Stuff like this happens regularly today. I know of several recent incidences.

Mcr Warrior · 12 Jan 2020

delt1c said:
Would be great to know how the 304 performed especially over Shap. I am sure the passengers had a bouncy ride when it got up to speed

Probably as bouncy as a typical 304 run was on the Altrincham line between Dane Road and Stretford (!)

kermit · 12 Jan 2020

Possibly less bouncy over Shap than the Altrincham line, as surely continuous welded rail and high speed pointwork went with the Glasgow electrification improvements, whereas Altrincham was still on jointed track?

Mcr Warrior said:
Probably as bouncy as a typical 304 run was on the Altrincham line between Dane Road and Stretford (!)

Taunton · 12 Jan 2020

Bald Rick said:
Stuff like this happens regularly today. I know of several recent incidences.

Only recently, in an outer suburb of a major Russian city, we thought the last train back to the centre was after midnight, but on walking into the deserted but still lit station found it had gone. Looking down the track, a headlight approaching turned out to be an ecs, which slowed to about 10mph, and then seeing us on the platform, stopped with the driver alongside us. "Where are you going?". "xxxx". "500 Roubles [about £4, several times the ticket] each - Hop in behind the cab here."

randyrippley · 12 Jan 2020

Bald Rick said:
Stuff like this happens regularly today. I know of several recent incidences.

Really? Has the fragmentation of route/driver knowledge not made it much more difficult?

delt1c · 12 Jan 2020

Bald Rick said:
Stuff like this happens regularly today. I know of several recent incidences.

Really please give more details, remember times where 365 were used as far north as York , as already quoted 304 to Carlisle, many other instances in the past that is not possible today due to the fragmented network. Remember in the mid 70's at Carlisle being allowed to travel to Glasgow on sleeper service in order to catch 06.00 to Fort William due to late running of my intended service. In days gone by it wasn't unknown for services to make additional stops during disruption, today they skip stops. In the past depots had spare staff and spare sets which could be quickly pushed into service. Today costs are cut to the bone in order to provide a dividend for shareholders. Public transport should be operated for the public not the fat cats.

Sprinter107 · 12 Jan 2020

More than once, I've suggested that ECS trains that I've been driving, be pushed into service with a guard during disruption, calling at all stations en route just to get people home. In fact, the last time was just a few weeks ago.

AndrewE · 12 Jan 2020

Sprinter107 said:
More than once, I've suggested that ECS trains that I've been driving, be pushed into service with a guard during disruption, calling at all stations en route just to get people home. In fact, the last time was just a few weeks ago.

but was your suggestion accepted - did it actually happen?

Sprinter107 · 12 Jan 2020

It most certainly has been accepted. As I said, I've more than once worked extra trains when a guard has been available. Not just making empty stock trains become service trains, but I've also offered to work spare units from the sidings or depot, again suggestions from myself that have been accepted. I've always put my passengers needs before my own needs without exception. I'm employed to provide a service, and that's what I do.

43096 · 12 Jan 2020

Sprinter107 said:
It most certainly has been accepted. As I said, I've more than once worked extra trains when a guard has been available. Not just making empty stock trains become service trains, but I've also offered to work spare units from the sidings or depot, again suggestions from myself that have been accepted. I've always put my passengers needs before my own needs without exception. I'm employed to provide a service, and that's what I do.

Good to hear. As a passenger, I've been on the opposite end of such decisions, where the collapse of the service on the Windsor lines out of Waterloo has seen passenger for the outer end of the Waterloo-Reading line sent via Paddington. On arrival at Reading, eventually a train appears, but booked to go back ECS to Farnham. Station staff ask train crew if they'll call all stations to Ascot rather than go empty - they agree. Speak to control, they point blank refuse - come up with spurious excuse about it being dark and they can't self-dispatch in the dark (which is arrant nonsense as most of the stations are always self-dispatch). So taxis it was...

Bald Rick · 12 Jan 2020

randyrippley said:
Really? Has the fragmentation of route/driver knowledge not made it much more difficult?

delt1c said:
Really please give more details, remember times where 365 were used as far north as York , as already quoted 304 to Carlisle, many other instances in the past that is not possible today due to the fragmented network. Remember in the mid 70's at Carlisle being allowed to travel to Glasgow on sleeper service in order to catch 06.00 to Fort William due to late running of my intended service. In days gone by it wasn't unknown for services to make additional stops during disruption, today they skip stops. In the past depots had spare staff and spare sets which could be quickly pushed into service. Today costs are cut to the bone in order to provide a dividend for shareholders. Public transport should be operated for the public not the fat cats.

I was referring to stranded passengers being put onto ECS trains, and spare units / drivers being pressed into service to run specials. The former happens very regularly, and for the latter, I’ve arranged some myself.

Sprinter107 · 12 Jan 2020

43096 said:
Good to hear. As a passenger, I've been on the opposite end of such decisions, where the collapse of the service on the Windsor lines out of Waterloo has seen passenger for the outer end of the Waterloo-Reading line sent via Paddington. On arrival at Reading, eventually a train appears, but booked to go back ECS to Farnham. Station staff ask train crew if they'll call all stations to Ascot rather than go empty - they agree. Speak to control, they point blank refuse - come up with spurious excuse about it being dark and they can't self-dispatch in the dark (which is arrant nonsense as most of the stations are always self-dispatch). So taxis it was...

I believe we should offer and owe our fare paying passengers a service. That's what I'm employed to do, and I'll argue on the passengers behalf, believe me. I've also been on the other end, and watched late running trains go sailing thro, or not bother turning up at all. As I said, for all my career, I've always put my passengers needs before my own, and will continue to do so.

vlad · 12 Jan 2020

Taunton said:
Only recently, in an outer suburb of a major Russian city, we thought the last train back to the centre was after midnight, but on walking into the deserted but still lit station found it had gone. Looking down the track, a headlight approaching turned out to be an ecs, which slowed to about 10mph, and then seeing us on the platform, stopped with the driver alongside us. "Where are you going?". "xxxx". "500 Roubles [about £4, several times the ticket] each - Hop in behind the cab here."

Hitch-hiking is part of Russian culture. Just because you're driving a vehicle that doesn't usually take hitchers that's no reason not to stop to pick people up! The driver will always expect payment as well, so perhaps that's why it's done.

Southof1E · 24 Feb 2020

Not the best but a sound record photof 304028 at Carlisle after working the 2123 Crewe - Carlisle relief on January 25th 1990. the 304 returned South on an 0025 Carlisle - Birmingham. Wires down South of Rugby had caused the need for a relief! The 304 maintained loco hauled timings throughout and the motors were growling over Shap!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/79134428@N03/49580146083/in/dateposted/

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