GTR penalty fare for sitting in first class

gray1404 · 11 Jan 2020

It would appear then that the only way you would have a valid grounds for appeal is if the signage at the station is not up to the required standard. Either by signs not being in place in the places they should be or the wording of them not being correct. But there may indeed have been compliant signage.

You certainly do not have ground to appeal on the basis you were given permission to travel in First Class - you were not given such permission. Also, at this point, they don't have any of your details and if you appeal you will have to provide your details (name and address). Are you willing to do this?

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RPI · 11 Jan 2020

I think as a member of staff you really should know better to be honest, I have to admit it does take a lot for me to actually go as far as "dealing" with a member of staff for issues such as this but it's a hard enough job being an inspector dealing with members of the public doing things like this, let alone staff that should know better.

some bloke · 11 Jan 2020

@pierrejacques, have you considered the possibility that you didn't just have no permission, but that you were in effect told you didn't have permission? Otherwise why would the staff member talk about an inspector catching you?

Can anyone guarantee that the company wouldn't prosecute, if they decide that @pierrejacques is saying he sat in first class after being effectively told he couldn't?

furlong said:
the train company would have to provide evidence that reasonably demonstrates that the permission claimed was not given.

I think in this case the burden of proof would be on @pierrejacques. In the Penalty Fare Regulations, paragraph 16(5) specifies where the company has to provide the evidence. It mentions 6(2). That means if a passenger claims they had permission to travel on that train, the company would have to provide evidence. But 16(5) doesn't mention 6(5), which is the one on being in the wrong class.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/made

furlong · 11 Jan 2020

some bloke: 6(2)(d) can be applied (see 3(2)(a)(vi) with 4(1) ) 6(5) is an exclusion

(Did the OP show their ticket to the person on the platform for inspection?)

kristiang85 · 11 Jan 2020

As a fare paying passenger, if I had been told "yes sit in first class but don't let the inspector catch you" I would have taken that as " sit in first class if you like, but if you do it's at your own risk and you will have the standard punishment if you are caught".

And I would really hope staff aren't treated different from the rest of us...

furlong · 11 Jan 2020

kristiang85 said:
And I would really hope staff aren't treated different from the rest of us...

They are - and should - be treated more harshly, as they don't have access to some excuses of ignorance that the public can use and they put their jobs on the line.

some bloke · 11 Jan 2020

furlong said:
some bloke: 6(2)(d) can be applied (see 3(2)(a)(vi) with 4(1) ) 6(5) is an exclusion

His appeal (which I am not recommending) would be under 6(5) - permission to be in the wrong class. 6(2)(d) is about permission to be on the train, which is something different. The company has to provide evidence where the grounds of appeal are under 6(2). Those other paragraphs are about valid tickets, rather than the evidence required for an appeal.

WesternLancer · 12 Jan 2020

As someone who has to pay for any 1st class I use I think it quite correct you are being asked to pay. I'd ask your union what they think (if you opt to pay their subscriptions of course).

Western Sunset · 12 Jan 2020

I feel it's rather poor show when one rail employee (who presumably should know better), tries to get another employee into trouble, just for the sake of £20 for their own ill-judged mistake.

Surely if you really felt you had "permission" to sit in first class, why the need to get out of your seat and head for the exit when the inspector approached?

The North Briton · 12 Jan 2020

pierrejacques said:
A member of staff on the platform stated to me; "You can sit in first class but don't let an inspector catch you." I took it as permission of a member of railway staff..

Saying ‘you CAN sit in First Class’ is not the same as saying ‘you MAY sit in First Class’. I would take the latter as permission but not the former.

Bletchleyite · 12 Jan 2020

The North Briton said:
Saying ‘you CAN sit in First Class’ is not the same as saying ‘you MAY sit in First Class’. I would take the latter as permission but not the former.

The part about an inspector shows that it was just a bit of (unprofessional) staff-to-staff banter, ,most clearly NOT permission.

Skimpot flyer · 12 Jan 2020

I am puzzled. Access to the platforms London-bound at East Croydon is via an overbridge about 2/3rds of the way along the length of a train, or via ramps at the booking hall, which would bring the OP to a position at the tail-end of a London-bound train.
In order to sit in the front portion of first class, the OP would have needed to walk 3-4 carriage lengths (or virtually the length of the platform!) after their discussion with the staff member.
If the conversation was at the booking hall gateline, would have been far simpler to get in the declassified first at the rear... something the OP has hinted he knew was perfectly ok ??

Haywain · 12 Jan 2020

Skimpot flyer said:
I am puzzled. Access to the platforms London-bound at East Croydon is via an overbridge about 2/3rds of the way along the length of a train, or via ramps at the booking hall, which would bring the OP to a position at the tail-end of a London-bound train.
In order to sit in the front portion of first class, the OP would have needed to walk 3-4 carriage lengths (or virtually the length of the platform!) after their discussion with the staff member.
If the conversation was at the booking hall gateline, would have been far simpler to get in the declassified first at the rear... something the OP has hinted he knew was perfectly ok ??

Indeed. Trains extremely busy, but not so much that there wasn't room to stand outside of first class.

FGW_DID · 12 Jan 2020

pierrejacques said:
…………A member of staff on the platform stated to me; "You can sit in first class but don't let an inspector catch you." I took it as permission of a member of railway staff.
As I saw the inspector approaching and I left the first class accommodation. When he approached me I was standing outside the first class area. He issued a penalty fare which I paid on the spot in full.……………

My bold - if you were that sure you had permission from the railway staff on the platform, why did you leave 1st Class when you saw the Inspector approaching? Was it because you really knew you weren’t supposed to be there!

As others have mentioned above, I think that you, as a member of Rail Staff, have indeed got off lightly with only a PF. Chalk it off as experience and next time, well there shouldn’t really be a next time should there?

snail · 12 Jan 2020

pierrejacques said:
He didn't take the number of my staff pass and I checked this with him that he wouldnt record it anywhere. He didn't either take any of my details only a card payment. I also have a zones 1-6 travelcard so if I appeal and they ask for my ticket I can supply that travelcard.

Which you didn't show at the time. Don't compound the error by lying, it's a good way of getting caught out. Is it really worth risking your job for the sake of £20?

pierrejacques · 28 Jan 2020

I am pleased to announce that I have won my appeal. I would like to thank everyone who helped me here.
Btw. I informed my manager about the PF. Just as I expected, he didn't make a deal of it.

gray1404 · 28 Jan 2020

pierrejacques said:
I am pleased to announce that I have won my appeal. I would like to thank everyone who helped me here.
Btw. I informed my manager about the PF. Just as I expected, he didn't make a deal of it.

That's great. Glad you got a good outcome. You can also tell you Manager that you won an appeal too lol

GTR penalty fare for sitting in first class

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