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CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

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Doveymain158

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With that being the case, I find it ironic in a way that some 175s have received the TfW spec interior refurbishment but no 158s have yet to my knowledge, although on the other hand the 175s had not had a full refurb under ATW like the 158s had.
With that being the case, I find it ironic in a way that some 175s have received the TfW spec interior refurbishment but no 158s have yet to my knowledge, although on the other hand the 175s had not had a full refurb under ATW like the 158s had.

158s are the only units the can work the Cambrian by doing upgrades in small bits it’s keeps a unit out of service for a shorter space of time. Tbh the current interior doesn’t look too bad PRM was more important than seat trim.
 

krus_aragon

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I believe the 175s go off lease before the 158s as stated above its down to ERTMS
Now that I'm back at at a proper computer, I can quote proper lease end dates here:

158/0 end 31/10/2022
175/0 and 175/1 end 31/05/2022

(Lease start date for the CAF stock was "to be confirmed" at the time.)
 

anamyd

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158s are the only units the can work the Cambrian by doing upgrades in small bits it’s keeps a unit out of service for a shorter space of time. Tbh the current interior doesn’t look too bad PRM was more important than seat trim.
It is showing signs of age by now with some damaged seat fabric / wall coverings and worn carpets, so would be nice to see them renewed to TfW spec like what's being done on the 175s. Would also not be too "different" to the 197s during the transition process then, and although "wrong" for the next operator would also leave the units in a better cosmetic condition for handing back to Angel.
 
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33017

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Dark blue & Orange sounds very much like the WMR livery.
EK5SaarXkAA1BM_.jpg


But just to confirm, CAF do seem to have moved (some) of the production to Newport. This post about a visit to the factory from the local MP shows a bunch of Northern units in assembly:
CAF-Montage-800x0-c-default.jpg


Not sure how it stacks up in terms of capacity at their plants in Spain, but makes sense to use capacity at the "local" production site now it's available, should mean that by the time they start on the 197s they'll have ironed out any issues with the facility/staff!
That certainly looks like it could be the same livery (the vehicles are probably 100m from the main line, end on and partially obscured by trees).
 

Phil from Mon

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Wales Online are reporting that Welsh Government will pay an additional £2 million for “high quality” seats exceeding the original specification for these trains rather than force “Thameslink-style ironing boards” on long-distance customers.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/taxpayers-pay-2m-better-seats-17550900

KeolisAmey - which runs Transport for Wales rail - had proposed to buy the same seats described as being like "ironing boards" by Thameslink passengers.
Transport for Wales will pay almost £2m extra to avoid “uncomfortable and unsuitable” seats in future new trains, but has dropped its pledge to gather passenger feedback before choosing the seats.
Its choice for the 77 long-distance trains appears to be the same as the seating in Great Western Railway’s new trains – criticised by many passengers – but could be configured differently.
Franchise operator KeolisAmey and train manufacturer CAF proposed to use the same seating as in the new Thameslink trains in the London area.
Some Thameslink passengers claim the seats are like “concrete” or “ironing boards” and unsuitable for longer journeys such as London to Brighton, which takes more than an hour.
TfW board minutes reveal that TfW “raised concerns” in July about the proposed seats with KeolisAmey, which operates under the TfW Rail Services brand.
TfW, the Welsh Government-owned company which procured the 15-year rail franchise, said the technical specification “mandates that the trains must be comfortable and practical for journeys of up to three hours”.
It argued that the Thameslink seats are “uncomfortable and unsuitable for long distance journeys”.
However, it decided it would not have a “strong legal argument” to force KeolisAmey and CAF to pay for more comfortable seats.
“Such legal action would be unlikely to succeed but would incur considerable additional cost and cause significant programme delay.”
Instead, taxpayer-funded TfW agreed to pay an extra £1.9m for its own choice of seat in the new trains, which will operate all Cambrian services between mid-Wales and Birmingham, all services from Cardiff to Manchester and Liverpool and most in north Wales.
When the franchise was awarded to KeolisAmey in June 2018, WalesOnline asked TfW and KeolisAmey about seat comfort on the new trains for Wales and Borders.
A TfW spokeswoman replied: “Before making a final decision, we plan to trial mock-up seats and gather feedback from passengers at key locations around the network so passengers can enjoy journeys on safe, comfortable trains.”
KeolisAmey’s Colin Lea, now customer experience director at TfW Rail Services, indicated that KeolisAmey would not use fire safety standards as an excuse to provide firm seats. He said: “This is a big issue of mine. We’re going to do our best to not hide behind the fire standards which we’ve seen with some franchises. A lot of those journeys are very long.”
Asked why TfW had chosen the seating without feedback from passengers at key locations around the network, a TfW spokesman said: “The customer is at the heart of our decision making at TfW, and the gold standard seats that we have selected for our new Class 197 trains are the best option available through our train supplier.”
 
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Bletchleyite

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Interesting that they seem to think the contoured base ironing board used by Northern, ScotRail and I think on the GWR EMUs is the same as the flat base one used by GTR. It very much is not - the seats don't look very different but the comfort is massively different.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Interesting that they seem to think the contoured base ironing board used by Northern, ScotRail and I think on the GWR EMUs is the same as the flat base one used by GTR. It very much is not - the seats don't look very different but the comfort is massively different.
I feel like GTR and GWR fainsas are the same. It’s noticeable in the seat backs. They’re different on the fainsas in refurbished Northern and ScotRail units, more plasticky it seems.
 

sw1ller

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“The best option available through our train supplier” is a sentence that doesn’t fill me with any confidence. That’s a long way off being the best option available.
 

sw1ller

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I think it's good that something is being done at least!
Absolutely, I’m not arguing with that.

However, in my experience, whenever a decision is made from the top that’s “gold standard” with “our people in mind” but without actually asking anyone, it means it’s wrong. Maybe I’m just cynical. I’ll give an example unrelated to the railway. In 2000, our boss in the forces ordered 12 new Volvo FH12 lorries, and demanded they have a tape cassette player so the drivers wouldn’t get too bored. He was beaming with pride that he’d done some good for us, even though we all had CDs and cassettes were well gone! Sounds ungrateful but in his refusal to listen to anyone, Volvo charged extra to install the cassettes...... which meant ripping out the CD players that came as standard!!

I have many more examples!! :lol:
 

Bletchleyite

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“The best option available through our train supplier” is a sentence that doesn’t fill me with any confidence. That’s a long way off being the best option available.

CAF appear to offer the FISA LEAN (WMT have specified it) which is a good option, very similar to the Grammer E3000 used on Desiros and as used on GA FLIRTs (and SWR think it's good enough for their long-distance First Class in the 444s). It also won the passenger survey on Northern which they later went on to ignore. I'd bet a fair few quid that they will be those.

RM-June-2019-p104.jpg

WMT Class 196 Civity interior showing seats.
 
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LOL The Irony

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Interesting that they seem to think the contoured base ironing board used by Northern, ScotRail and I think on the GWR EMUs is the same as the flat base one used by GTR. It very much is not - the seats don't look very different but the comfort is massively different.
I know this is seat wibble, but you can polish a turd...
 

Llama

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I'm fairly sure the 195s and 331s use Fainsa seats, I've seen stickers on the bases on trains not yet ready for passenger use saying 'Fainsa / CAF, tooling number 61, Project Northern & Transpennine'.
 

sw1ller

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CAF appear to offer the FISA LEAN (WMT have specified it) which is a good option, very similar to the Grammer E3000 used on Desiros and as used on GA FLIRTs (and SWR think it's good enough for their long-distance First Class in the 444s). It also won the passenger survey on Northern which they later went on to ignore. I'd bet a fair few quid that they will be those.

RM-June-2019-p104.jpg

WMT Class 197 Civity interior showing seats.

they still don’t LOOK particularly comfortable, but as you say upthread, these ride a lot better than they look. I’ve not had the pleasure myself so can’t make any comment. So it seems CAF are using the results of a previous focus group so no need for TfW and CAF to do their own. I’ll wait to see the seats before I make any more judgement on them then. Thanks.
 

hwl

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Any news on who the ROSCO is for the stock? It was "TBC later" originally but I haven't heard anything since...
 

sw1ller

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Any news on who the ROSCO is for the stock? It was "TBC later" originally but I haven't heard anything since...

I thought they would be owned by Welsh Government and the rosco’s weren’t to be involved? Have I got my wires mixed up?
 

Bletchleyite

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I know this is seat wibble, but you can polish a turd...

I suspect that's a mistyping, but you can polish one - if you've not tried a contoured ironing board do so, they are very different. Personally I find them much more comfortable for a journey of 1-2 hours (like I did yesterday from Lancaster to Manchester, in the coveted single seat too) than a Fainsa Sophia.
 

Bletchleyite

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they still don’t LOOK particularly comfortable, but as you say upthread, these ride a lot better than they look. I’ve not had the pleasure myself so can’t make any comment. So it seems CAF are using the results of a previous focus group so no need for TfW and CAF to do their own. I’ll wait to see the seats before I make any more judgement on them then. Thanks.

Also worth noting that the Welsh versions are likely to have armrests and be spaced further apart. The WMT ones not as a wide aisle is being prioritised.
 

LOL The Irony

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I suspect that's a mistyping, but you can polish one - if you've not tried a contoured ironing board do so, they are very different. Personally I find them much more comfortable for a journey of 1-2 hours (like I did yesterday from Lancaster to Manchester, in the coveted single seat too) than a Fainsa Sophia.
I spent less than an hour on a 195 from Piccadilly - Preston and my rear was starting to get sore by the end of it.
 

hwl

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I thought they would be owned by Welsh Government and the rosco’s weren’t to be involved? Have I got my wires mixed up?
The ROSCO was definitely TBC later, which suggests things weren't quite as easy /terms what they hoped for as they were hoping...

The 2040 diesel only limit might have made the terms less generous than they were hoping for originally...
 

hexagon789

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They may have to have a further dig through the FISA catalog or maybe use the same seats in a 2x1 config and have them recline.

Hmm, might not be so bad. I was also thinking about whether it'll be a 2+1 config or 2+2 with the only difference to Std being the seats themselves and possibly the legroom,.
 

krus_aragon

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Hmm, might not be so bad. I was also thinking about whether it'll be a 2+1 config or 2+2 with the only difference to Std being the seats themselves and possibly the legroom,.
2+1 surely? They'll be operating alongside the MkIV rakes (with 2+1 seating like the current MkIIIs) between Cardiff and Shrewsbury, and I'd be gobsmacked if TfW think 2+2 will meet the expectations of potential First Class travellers on the Manchester-South Wales route. There's no history of "commuter" 2+2 First Class in this neck of the woods, so people will expect that First Class means 2+1.
 

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