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Why are people opposed to HS2? (And other HS2 discussion)

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The Ham

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It will take decades to achieve significant modal shift.
Decades have been spent building for cars - sprawling housing estates with density and road layouts unsuitable for buses, out of town shopping, workplaces on the edges of towns spread over wide areas.
Public transport can not provide for this.
Sure many young people manage without cars in the cities. Then they have kids, move to the suburbs, and need cars.

I don't love in a city, in fact I love in a village of 8,000 (very much the sort of place which people with families move to away from cities) and with some small changes (see previous post) we could live without owning a car.

Just because people think that they need a car they have a car (or more cars per household), if you actually consider what you would need to do not need to own a car then you could be surprised at how little you'd need to do to reduce the number of cars that are within a household. Maybe even down to boot owning a car at all.
 
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Meerkat

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I would never give up my car whilst I can afford it.
There is no replacement for its flexibility and freedom, nor it’s boot!
 
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I would never give up my car whilst I can afford it.
There is no replacement for its flexibility and freedom, nor it’s boot!
And for those that live outside of big cities, the vast majority would agree with you. Go out today to any tourist attraction, coastal spot, national trust location, or even a ghastly retail park, and there will be tens of thousands of cars, many occupied by families with children, for whom public transport will never be an option. The car became dominant in the 60s because people voted with their feet, and much as some dislike them, they are going to be around for a long time to come.
 

underbank

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Car ownership amongst younger generations isn't as high as it was in the past

What area(s) are you referring to? My 17 year old son has just passed his test. Nearly all his upper sixth friends have either passed or are learning. All our teenage neighbours have learned/are learning to drive. There may be fewer youngsters driving in London and other big cities with good public transport and I presume that's where you are referring to. Driving instructors around here have waiting lists!
 

Grumpy Git

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A lot of my London based friends don't bother with having a car. Almost everyone else I know has to have one to go where they need.

My lad passed his test over 3 years ago, he hasn't driven a car since. Fortunately the very good public transport between his university city and home mean he's never needed too.
 

ChrisC

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I live in a village about 8 miles outside Nottingham. Unlike many villages which have no buses we do have a bus service into Nottingham. However, like many areas outside large cities there are no buses after 7pm and no buses on Sundays or Bank Holidays. Although I try to use public transport I often have to use my car if I want to return in the evening or go out in the evening or on Sundays.

Moving on to the main subject of HS2, it is the travelling to the East Midlands station at Toton that would mean having to use the car to reach the station. Buses from villages and towns in Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire do not tend to run cross country in the direction of Toton but into the city centres of Nottingham and Derby. By building the HS2 stations out of town it is encouraging more cars onto already very congested local roads to reach Toton.

I do have a station on the Robin Hood Line that I can walk to in about 30 minutes and so I can be at Nottingham Station within an hour of leaving home. Then 1 hour 40 minutes on a fast train to St Pancras is quite good. Once I had travelled into Nottingham I would not then want to have to travel out to Toton with yet another change of train and very little time advantage. For me getting to London a few minutes quicker is not the problem but currently getting from Nottingham to Leeds and Manchester takes longer than getting to London.
 

Ianno87

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I live in a village about 8 miles outside Nottingham. Unlike many villages which have no buses we do have a bus service into Nottingham. However, like many areas outside large cities there are no buses after 7pm and no buses on Sundays or Bank Holidays. Although I try to use public transport I often have to use my car if I want to return in the evening or go out in the evening or on Sundays.

Moving on to the main subject of HS2, it is the travelling to the East Midlands station at Toton that would mean having to use the car to reach the station. Buses from villages and towns in Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire do not tend to run cross country in the direction of Toton but into the city centres of Nottingham and Derby. By building the HS2 stations out of town it is encouraging more cars onto already very congested local roads to reach Toton.

.

It's pretty obvious why there aren't presently any bus routes to Toton....it doesn't exist yet!

Plenty of routes could be re-routed to serve it. The Red Arrow being an obvious one for starters.
 

AndrewE

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What area(s) are you referring to? My 17 year old son has just passed his test. Nearly all his upper sixth friends have either passed or are learning. All our teenage neighbours have learned/are learning to drive. There may be fewer youngsters driving in London and other big cities with good public transport and I presume that's where you are referring to. Driving instructors around here have waiting lists!
It's noticeable that you don't claim that they either bought cars or have full use of a parent's car (although the post you are referring to talks about car ownership.)
My boys learnt to drive as soon as possible,(as did I) because it's a life skill. None of us bought a car for at least 5 years afterwards, and I am now looking forward to the time when there is a car club in the small town where I live so that I can walk away from it too.
 

GRALISTAIR

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And for those that live outside of big cities, the vast majority would agree with you. Go out today to any tourist attraction, coastal spot, national trust location, or even a ghastly retail park, and there will be tens of thousands of cars, many occupied by families with children, for whom public transport will never be an option. The car became dominant in the 60s because people voted with their feet, and much as some dislike them, they are going to be around for a long time to come.
Yes and although extravagant if I had boatloads if money I would get an SUV. The problem with cars is they are just too damned useful. So I will use HS2 if/when it gets built but will use my vehicle to get to the nearest station.
 

ChrisC

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It's pretty obvious why there aren't presently any bus routes to Toton....it doesn't exist yet!

Plenty of routes could be re-routed to serve it. The Red Arrow being an obvious one for starters.

I am quite aware that there are currently not many buses to Toton and that it doesn’t exist yet! What I was trying to point out is that the majority of bus services run like spokes on a wheel into the nearest city and very few run from spike to spoke to link even sizeable neighbouring towns. Buses like the Red Arrow may be diverted but people the villages and smaller towns would still have to travel first into Nottingham or Derby to board it.

My nearest town of Hucknall has plenty of buses, trams and trains into Nottingham and buses north to Mansfield, but try travelling east or west from Hucknall. For example Hucknall and Eastwood are 2 sizeable towns in Nottinghamshire, only 5 miles apart, but have no direct buses and even the expensive roundabout Amberline bus route does not run in the evenings or on Sundays.

For so many people who do not live in Nottingham, getting to Toton will mean using a car or a long journey into Nottingham and then out again by public transport. I’m not against HS2 but I think locally it will mean more car use not less.
 

AndrewE

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Yes and although extravagant if I had boatloads if money I would get an SUV. The problem with cars is they are just too damned useful. So I will use HS2 if/when it gets built but will use my vehicle to get to the nearest station.
for which read: "easy to use with no need for pre-planning, careful packing, compromises on journey "availability" (timetables and connections) etc."
Trouble is, this attitude has got us where we are now: global warming, urban air pollution, obesity, terrible societal inequity/collapse of social cohesion, and more.
Do you really think we can continue in the same way?
 

GRALISTAIR

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Do you really think we can continue in the same way?
No but I don’t have the answer. Banning cars from all city centers progressively would be a start. I will give you 10/10 if you can figure out a way to ban mothers/fathers from picking up/dropping off their little dahhhrrrlings off at school.!!!

edited to add fathers so not to cause offense. But in my experience p****ng off a mother is a lot worse than doing the same to a father!!! To quote a Space lyric - the female of the species is more deadly than the male!
 
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underbank

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No but I don’t have the answer. Banning cars from all city centers progressively would be a start. I will give you 10/10 if you can figure out a way to ban mothers from picking up/dropping off their little dahhhrrrlings off at school.!!!

Especially if said mothers have to get 2 children to different schools at the same time and then get themselves to work.
 

AndrewE

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Especially if said mothers have to get 2 children to different schools at the same time and then get themselves to work.
How about having neighbourhood schools, no "choice," all good enough to have the users' confidence?
Mums (why not parents?) who are working need flexible hours to allow them to do primary kids movement (walking buses or shared stewarding of kids removes the need for taking & fetching them every single day.)
Secondary Kids can get themselves to school.
As I said, Do you really think we can continue in the same way? Or do you want to? I take it you don't live anywhere close to sea-level...
 

HowardGWR

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I think I started this debate a while back in the thread on where the HS2 money could be spent on environmentally useful improvements for local travel. One issue is the costs. Even 100 billion for HS2 is a flea bite of what getting rid of the need for private cars for local travel would involve. I admittedly have no idea on the total cost of such infrastructure, let alone the ability to find "rolling stock" and staff to provide such levels of service but it will be enormous. It's like building London Transport and all the cycle paths (which London doesn't have yet anyway), in every city and town of our country, let alone finding a way to deal with more rural areas. I wonder if charities like CfBT have any notion themselves about what is needed to finance and build that lot.
 

squizzler

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It's really very simple, you directly compared a small group of rich people against the Government, unless you haven't noticed rich people only have to worry about themselves, Governments have slightly more responsibility

You lost me, what do you mean by 'directly compared a small group of rich people against the Government'? Like I said they would thrash any team the Westminster cabinet fielded in a five a side match? Or that Geoff Bezos leaves a mess when emptying the bins and Bill Gates still hasn't come round and fixed my street? I think you will find I was using their personal fortunes as a comparator against which to make sense of HS2 costs. Not the same thing.

For another comparator I'm sure you will feel unfair, the US military budget last year was 693bn. That would pay for HS2 in just 40 days or thereabouts.

I think the problem for yourself might not be my choice of comparator (although highlighting the fortunes of fat cats might be provocative to some) but that comparators can help inform people and give context. And if your argument relies on the 'telephone number' sums involved in these big projects to blow people's minds that might a problem.

I have no idea what the moderator position is on members changing other peoples posts, my position is that I would rather you didn't interfere with what I've written without my permission

Why not report the post in question and find out? I've seen loads of posts paraphrased in this way, and you have enough posts to your name I'm sure you have too. Don't be a snowdrop!
 

Ianno87

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Says alot about the attitudes of some posters on this forum when 'mothers' rather than 'parents' is the default term.

I (male) drop my son (by bus) at Nursery most mornings. Is that permitted in their universes, I wonder?
 

Grimsby town

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I am quite aware that there are currently not many buses to Toton and that it doesn’t exist yet! What I was trying to point out is that the majority of bus services run like spokes on a wheel into the nearest city and very few run from spike to spoke to link even sizeable neighbouring towns. Buses like the Red Arrow may be diverted but people the villages and smaller towns would still have to travel first into Nottingham or Derby to board it.

My nearest town of Hucknall has plenty of buses, trams and trains into Nottingham and buses north to Mansfield, but try travelling east or west from Hucknall. For example Hucknall and Eastwood are 2 sizeable towns in Nottinghamshire, only 5 miles apart, but have no direct buses and even the expensive roundabout Amberline bus route does not run in the evenings or on Sundays.

For so many people who do not live in Nottingham, getting to Toton will mean using a car or a long journey into Nottingham and then out again by public transport. I’m not against HS2 but I think locally it will mean more car use not less.

For some people Nottingham will still be more convenient for London trains so people will travel to Nottingham. For others travelling into Nottingham from places like Hucknall will be seen as more of a pain than just driving the whole way to Birmingham and London (or a park and ride). These journeys are likely to be eliminated by Toton as people choose to use the train from Toton instead.

There will probably be a few more car journeys when people choose to drive to Toton instead of get public transport to Nottingham but I imagine the affects will be cancelled out by new well connected development at Toton and new tram bus routes as result of the station.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Says alot about the attitudes of some posters on this forum when 'mothers' rather than 'parents' is the default term.

I (male) drop my son (by bus) at Nursery most mornings. Is that permitted in their universes, I wonder?
I am sorry my post started it. I am old fashioned and meant no disrespect. I too have in the past dropped my kids off. The point still stands though.

I have edited my post to reflect the concerns of Ianno87
 
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The Ham

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Says alot about the attitudes of some posters on this forum when 'mothers' rather than 'parents' is the default term.

I (male) drop my son (by bus) at Nursery most mornings. Is that permitted in their universes, I wonder?

Likewise I most of the school/childcare drop offs (4/5) and some pick ups (definitely one and sometimes two) each week, whilst my wife does the others.

As a side note, none of mine involve the use of a car.
 

The Ham

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I think I started this debate a while back in the thread on where the HS2 money could be spent on environmentally useful improvements for local travel. One issue is the costs. Even 100 billion for HS2 is a flea bite of what getting rid of the need for private cars for local travel would involve. I admittedly have no idea on the total cost of such infrastructure, let alone the ability to find "rolling stock" and staff to provide such levels of service but it will be enormous. It's like building London Transport and all the cycle paths (which London doesn't have yet anyway), in every city and town of our country, let alone finding a way to deal with more rural areas. I wonder if charities like CfBT have any notion themselves about what is needed to finance and build that lot.

A lot of people state that they don't want to walk or cycle because of the amount of traffic.

As such chances are that as the number of people who walk and cycle increase and, more importantly, the numbers driving falls then the attractiveness of walking and cycling rises and so the numbers walking and cycling should rise further.

You could make walking and cycling more attractive fairly cheaply by closing some through roads to motor traffic.

Now whilst there would be a need to provide some expensive schemes, quite a lot can be done with just some paint and signs.

Like a lot of things, sometimes the cycling organisations (like Sustrans) want the perfect solution when actually doing something would make a big difference and allow the perfect solution to be provided later.
 

Purple Orange

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Likewise I most of the school/childcare drop offs (4/5) and some pick ups (definitely one and sometimes two) each week, whilst my wife does the others.

As a side note, none of mine involve the use of a car.

Same here. While there are people who drive to pickup or collect, it is a combination of mothers, fathers and grand parents. The demographic that really boils my piss are drivers of cars that are too powerful for their driving capabilities, but not too powerful for their ego. I had some idiot right up my arse on the M60 earlier flashing lights to people and undertaking loads of cars. They do my head right in.
 

The Ham

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Same here. While there are people who drive to pickup or collect, it is a combination of mothers, fathers and grand parents. The demographic that really boils my piss are drivers of cars that are too powerful for their driving capabilities, but not too powerful for their ego. I had some idiot right up my arse on the M60 earlier flashing lights to people and undertaking loads of cars. They do my head right in.

Whist they do sound like someone you wouldn't be wanting to share a road with, if everyone was driving correctly (using the left most lane that they could) they wouldn't have been able to undertake.
 

Purple Orange

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Whist they do sound like someone you wouldn't be wanting to share a road with, if everyone was driving correctly (using the left most lane that they could) they wouldn't have been able to undertake.

I agree with that sentiment, but gaps will always be found. The driver in question today undertook on the lane that was heading for the slip road and nipped back in on the white zig-zag lines back in to the M60. I wish I had a dash cam to have filmed it.
 

Bletchleyite

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Whist they do sound like someone you wouldn't be wanting to share a road with, if everyone was driving correctly (using the left most lane that they could) they wouldn't have been able to undertake.

That doesn't really follow. Such people will typically not adhere to the "two second rule", and so will undertake when they in fact do not safely have the space to do so, weaving around people who are adhering to that rule, or flashing lights at them when they are leaving a sensible distance after the overtake before pulling back in.

Sometimes they judge that wrong and have to reduce to 56mph behind a lorry. Oh how I laugh when that happens.
 

Meerkat

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More people would cycle if cycle activists stopped discouraging them.
Their campaigning is one big reason why people think it is too dangerous to ride a bike.
The constant nagging about wearing helmets shouts danger.
And their demands for workplace facilities puts people off - “I can’t be bothered to have a shower and get changed” wouldn’t have been an excuse before.
 

The Ham

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More people would cycle if cycle activists stopped discouraging them.
Their campaigning is one big reason why people think it is too dangerous to ride a bike.
The constant nagging about wearing helmets shouts danger.
And their demands for workplace facilities puts people off - “I can’t be bothered to have a shower and get changed” wouldn’t have been an excuse before.

There's been a massive campaign about wearing seatbelts, cars have airbags and other multiple safety features, yet that does nothing to stop people from using them for safety reasons.
 

AndrewE

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More people would cycle if cycle activists stopped discouraging them.
Their campaigning is one big reason why people think it is too dangerous to ride a bike. The constant nagging about wearing helmets shouts danger.
And their demands for workplace facilities puts people off - “I can’t be bothered to have a shower and get changed” wouldn’t have been an excuse before.
What? (I could be less polite and say "Rubbish" or be a lot less polite. Basically, you are talking bollocks.)
CTC, now renamed Cycling UK, is adamant that helmets are absolutely irrelevant. https://www.cyclinguk.org/campaigning/views-and-briefings/cycle-helmets says
Cycling UK is opposed to both cycle helmet laws and to helmet promotion campaigns because these are almost certainly detrimental to public health. Evidence shows that the health benefits of cycling are so much greater than the relatively low risks involved, that even if these measures caused only a very small reduction in cycle use, this would still almost certainly mean far more lives being lost through physical inactivity than helmets could possibly save, however effective..
In any case, there are serious doubts about the effectiveness of helmets. They are, and can only be, designed to withstand minor knocks and falls, not serious traffic collisions. Some evidence suggests they may in fact increase the risk of cyclists having falls or collisions in the first place, or suffering neck injuries..
I suggest that you read the whole article, or search their site for "Helmets" and see which way the "cycle activists" view helmets.
I still enjoy cycling to the shops (and to the station)- after 45 years here and 15 years before I left home. I have never worn a helmet.

It's not the activists that are the problem, but the nouveau-cyclistes, the evangelists who see everything in black and white, are relatively inexperienced and can't recognise (i.e. evaluate) or manage risk.
 

Meerkat

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What? (I could be less polite and say "Rubbish" or be a lot less polite. Basically, you are talking bollocks.)
CTC, now renamed Cycling UK, is adamant that helmets are absolutely irrelevant.

I know their position, I am a member...which is how I know they are constantly fighting off helmet compulsion! And they don’t say they are irrelevant, they are very careful not to say that kind of thing.
 
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