cnjb8
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GoAhead London often casts off Enviro200
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First Group: General Discussion
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Jordan Adam
Established Member
I'd imagine Go-Ahead likely did undercut First. Seems the case these days that they always go for the lowest bidder rather than the most logical / best quality.
Goldfish62
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Apparently not. Considerably more expensive but won on quality. The tenders were on a 60:40 quality v cost basis.
Robertj21a
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Not true.
The initial quoted contract value was £70m over the 8 years at tendering stage and the PCB win came in at around £107m over the 8 years.
Jordan Adam
Established Member
Interesting...
The quality score is not quality to the punter but meeting CCs demands and wish list.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
The PIN figures on OJEU releases are notoriously inaccurate. Usually massively understated (as in this case) because they think they can get something cheaper than they did 8 years previously (despite inflation), OR overstated as they then change elements of the scope/deal. If it costs about £100k to run a vehicle (that's a bit low but thinking there may be a lot of smaller vehicles and part time ops), then 130*8*£100k is just over £100m so looks ball park-ish (rather than £70m)
Correct. Rather than using the term "quality", people should think of that element being more about a technical compliance in completing the tender and demonstrating capability etc
PCBs winning bid sees a transport overspend of £3m a year for Cornwall council, Based on the focus of CC getting their dreamt up criteria’s all hit which PCB will Have pretty much gone yes sir yes sir. First offered a lower cost but scored lower on ‘quality’ I.e probably better value for the tax payer
Goldfish62
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I agree. It'll be interesting to see what is done about ticketing.
If I buy a day return on the A17 to go to St Ives and then find I can't use it to come back in the evening because GA is running the service that is clearly not improved quality and will do nothing to grow the network. Quite the opposite in fact.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Don't know if continue is the word - they had fallen from over £4m a couple of years ago. However, those are pretty bad results and can't say I'm surprised. It really is a woeful operation from the little experience I've had of it. Compare with Stagecoach Yorkshire - £4m profit - and a much better run operation.
Funnily enough, saw FSY Streetdeck 35102 (I think) on suspended tow between Northampton and MK heading South. Essex is the only OpCo I could think of it going to but that's purely a guess.
Robertj21a
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That one has been off the road at Sheffield for a long time. It was reported that it was to transfer to Leicester (who would make it roadworthy again) , but that was later changed.
Robertj21a
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The FSY Accounts aren't actually as bad as I had been expecting given various tales of problems following the rationalisation of Sheffield/Rotherham - but then I had to remember that these Accounts are only up to March 19. I fear the next set of figures will highlight a further deteriorating position.
317 forever
Established Member
I wonder which other operators in addition to First are losing tendered work as a result of it all being awarded to Go-Ahead?
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Stagecoach will lose a fair bit from their Bude (Stratton) outstation with services 216-219 and 319. However, the biggest losers are probably Travel Cornwall who have a number of tendered routes and also Hopleys and possibly OTS.
317 forever
Established Member
Thank you for letting me know. Cornwall Council's decision to tender the routes all in 1 package may well have favoured the big 3: First, Go-Ahead and Stagecoach.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Indeed it would have. It would have required the smaller operators either to band together in some sort of alliance OR to work as a sub-contractor to one of the big 3. The latter is not as easy as you think either.
first has lost approx 25% of its work. The remaining 75% is commercial. Some of the little independents are losing 100% of their work.
Community buses, Travel Cornwall, Hopleys amongst the big losers
Man of Kent
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Unless I'm mis-reading the timetables, that appears to be a PVR of 1 (including Cornwall 319, but not the Devon one)
There is one working on Devon 319 that starts from and ends at Bude, though there must be a good chance that it is used to transfer buses to and from Barnstaple for maintenance.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
I phrased it poorly. They have a cluster of routes and I think there's a couple of vehicles used on them. They also have the 128 and 85 that also soak up a vehicle each. However, they have the old First outstation at Stratton which had about 10 or 11 vehicles but only 4 of those are (I think) used on the main 6/6A service to Exeter so most of the work is tendered. An added complication is that the 319 and 85 are mainly in Devon so not certain if they're jointly tendered (or more likely a contribution from CC). I think they do use Barnstaple as well as Exeter to get the Darts and Solos serviced.
If you want some real comedy, you could try this comment from below the line on the otherwise excellent Plymothian Transit (well worth a look), with someone called Keith coming up with these gems:
"As to depots:
I think just about all of the services in North Cornwall are tendered, so they will need somewhere from which to operate those. Is Western Greyhound's site in Summercourt still vacant (although they might think it unlucky)? Are the depots First no longer use still available (St. Austell and Wherrytown, Penzance come to mind)? Is the old Southern National (later Jennings) building in Bude available? They now use the former First out-station in Callington (with refuelling at Tesco's!) and I expect they are going to have to use a good many more out-stations - there would be quite a few of those which First will be vacating."
That would be Summercourt that FK took on as a depot in about 2016 (?). However, that's recent compared to St Austell (Eliot Road) that was bulldozed at least 6 years ago and was awaiting redevelopment last I heard (but may well have flats on it), Penzance (Wherrytown) that closed about 25 years ago and has a LIDL on it (!). Bude was also facing demolition last I knew.
freetoview33
Established Member
What I can see happening is, Go Ahead sub-contracting routes on a short term basis to smaller operators to A) reduce the need for as many new buses/depots to begin with and B) see what First do and any routes that go commercial. If then the PVR reduces then they can get rid of the sub-contractors easier, without being left with a lot of excess buses/depots.
Goldfish62
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Yes, the former WG Summercourt depot is with First Kernow. It has the largest local bus allocation, as well as most modern fleet (mainly E200 and 400MMCs) and is the main admin office.
Wherrytown was demolished to become a Lidl, which itself was demolished last year and the site is vacant and on the market. Which gets me thinking....
Isn’t the bude to launceston part of the 6/6a tendered too?
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
I suspect it probably is. More likely that it would be a deminimis but despite that, could expect that the actual vehicle would remain even if it doesn’t go via Launceston (e.g. direct from Bude OR starting from Okehampton)
Jordan Adam
Established Member
It's always a shame to hear about independents loosing service work. Although not an area i pay much attention to i think i'll keep an eye on how things go...
F Great Eastern
Established Member
First Northern Ireland has gone from small loss to small profit.
However according to post on an enthusiast forum in Ireland there may be trouble ahead for Aircoach. Isn't really outlined why but mentions penny pinching that's likely to cost them far more in lost revenue. Will do some digging.
However according to post on an enthusiast forum in Ireland there may be trouble ahead for Aircoach. Isn't really outlined why but mentions penny pinching that's likely to cost them far more in lost revenue. Will do some digging.
F Great Eastern
Established Member
Aircoach in Ireland have made a profit of just over €4m.
According to the Aircoach website, well hidden is the news that the company have lost access to their bus bays directly outside both terminals at Dublin Airport and will have to make do with the bus stops that are outside the multi-storey car park in T1 through another building.
Anyone arriving at Dublin Airport will not see Aircoach services anymore upon leaving the front door of T1 and T2 and will see only Dublin Bus Airlink services. To reach Aircoach services from T1 you will need to walk past the competition, walk through the bottom of the T1 car-park building and come out of the other side. From T2 you'll have to work round to this are too in T1.
That's a massive own goal and is going to massively effect walk-up business from the airport. One has to ask if they really went into the tender aggressively enough. If you are dependent on airport traffic, a prime position at the airport is vital. It is typically First though, but when you consider Aircoach has contributed €16m of profits to First in the last 3 years, you'd think they would put everything into such tender.
According to the Aircoach website, well hidden is the news that the company have lost access to their bus bays directly outside both terminals at Dublin Airport and will have to make do with the bus stops that are outside the multi-storey car park in T1 through another building.
Anyone arriving at Dublin Airport will not see Aircoach services anymore upon leaving the front door of T1 and T2 and will see only Dublin Bus Airlink services. To reach Aircoach services from T1 you will need to walk past the competition, walk through the bottom of the T1 car-park building and come out of the other side. From T2 you'll have to work round to this are too in T1.
That's a massive own goal and is going to massively effect walk-up business from the airport. One has to ask if they really went into the tender aggressively enough. If you are dependent on airport traffic, a prime position at the airport is vital. It is typically First though, but when you consider Aircoach has contributed €16m of profits to First in the last 3 years, you'd think they would put everything into such tender.
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Was there a tender involved or where they just told to move? If there was a tender there's still going to be winners and losers, airport coach access has caused numerous issues over the last couple of years.
As someone who has used Dublin Airport a lot over the years, I completely agree, this will result in a lot of lost business.
Would love to see First sell Aircoach to Go-Ahead who have an increasing operation in the Greater Dublin area.