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TPE (?) Penalty Fares

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mikeg

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As we all know, TPE do not currently have a penalty fares scheme, however a few weeks ago a member of staff stated they are introducing penalty fares. I was surprised as this was the first I had heard of it and thought it possibly to just be rumour, however NRE now states Thirsk will be a penalty fare station from 2nd January. Personally dead against this, especially given how barely usable the TVM is and how the ticket office often isn't open when it should be.

Also, who gave TPE permission to do this ? Assuming it's TPE and not GC, but it seems to go completely against TPE's franchise agreement. Furthermore there has been NO advertising of it at Thirsk station, nothing in the local press. I am of the belief that such a big change should be very clearly communicated to passengers beforehand. Any thoughts on how we can fight this?
 
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Jonny

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As we all know, TPE do not currently have a penalty fares scheme, however a few weeks ago a member of staff stated they are introducing penalty fares. I was surprised as this was the first I had heard of it and thought it possibly to just be rumour, however NRE now states Thirsk will be a penalty fare station from 2nd January. Personally dead against this, especially given how barely usable the TVM is and how the ticket office often isn't open when it should be.

I overheard a member of TPE staff saying pretty much the same thing to someone else, somewhere other than Thirsk, when selling a ticket on board.
 

tom73

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Can you define "barely usable"? How often do you find the ticket office closed between 06:00 and 19:45 Monday-Saturday and 08:45-17:30 Sunday. If you feel your concerns are genuine, TPE are easily contacted via Twitter
 

ajdunlop

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This morning at Huddersfield there was an automated announcement saying that Penalty Fares would be in operation from the 2nd of February.

At Huddersfield this shouldn't make too much difference as the ticket barriers are in operation most of the time, the issues will be at smaller stations along the line without ticket offices. If there is a problem with the ticket machine can the guard check this or are you at the mercy of whether they believe you?
Some of the small North Trans Pennine route stations are Northern operated despite no longer having a Northern service calling there (e.g. Marsden), given their track record at maintaining TVMs what will be the incentive to keep them maintained when it doesn't effect their revenue?
 

2L70

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Also, who gave TPE permission to do this ? Assuming it's TPE and not GC, but it seems to go completely against TPE's franchise agreement. Furthermore there has been NO advertising of it at Thirsk station, nothing in the local press. I am of the belief that such a big change should be very clearly communicated to passengers beforehand. Any thoughts on how we can fight this?

Their Network runs alongside most of Northern’s(Penalty Fare routes)and LNER have their own system, so that’s a justification I suppose. Also intergration of both TPE and Northern’s revenue teams working together more.

Plus as we all know TPE are desperate for money and Penalty Fares are an easy cash cow.
 

cactustwirly

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As someone who's lived in a Penalty Fare area for as long as I can remember, I don't see what the fuss is all about tbh
 

Tetchytyke

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The lack of reliable ticket purchase facilities?

If there are no ticket purchasing facilities then PFs don't apply.

A proper, regulated, PF scheme with appeal rights is infinitely preferable to the alternative "demanding money with menaces" model used by Transport Investigations for the likes of XC.
 

_toommm_

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Signage has now started to appear on the digital billboards inside TPE's fleet.

Will the guards be able to give out penalty fares, or will that just be the dedicated revenue staff; similar to Northern's model?
 

Bletchleyite

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A proper, regulated, PF scheme with appeal rights is infinitely preferable to the alternative "demanding money with menaces" model used by Transport Investigations for the likes of XC.

Provided the PF scheme is used to deal with actual ticketing offences and they don't just prosecute anyway and leave PFs for extorting extra money out of people who have made a minor error where a guard would normally sell a ticket. There is a big difference between TOCs in how this is done.
 

Bungle965

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Signage has now started to appear on the digital billboards inside TPE's fleet.

Will the guards be able to give out penalty fares, or will that just be the dedicated revenue staff; similar to Northern's model?
From what I have been told they have hired more (20 the figure given) on board Revenue Protection staff, some of which are apparently from an agency.
Sam
 

plugwash

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If there are no ticket purchasing facilities then PFs don't apply.
The problem is not stations with no ticketing facilies, but stations with unreliable and/or inadequate ticketing facilities. Some northern stations have one ticket machine as the only ticket sales for the entire station, even when said station has multiple seperate entrances. My local station has three entrances, one going to platform 1 (with a ticket machine on the platform), one going to platforms 2 and 3 (through a ticket office) and one going to paltform 4 ( there is a ticket machine on the platform 4 side of the station, but it's hidden away under the overbridge ) , not a terrible setup during the daytime, but not so good for people leaving from platforms 2/3 after the ticket office counter closes.

I don't recall any signage telling people where to find ticket machines, either under normal circumstances, or when the obvious ticket machine for them to use is broken.

Oh and it seems northern fail have failed to bother telling national rail enquiries about their ticket machines so the maps can be updated (also noone seems to have told narional rail enquiries about the footbridge).
 

_toommm_

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The problem is not stations with no ticketing facilies, but stations with unreliable and/or inadequate ticketing facilities. Some northern stations have one ticket machine as the only ticket sales for the entire station, even when said station has multiple seperate entrances. My local station has three entrances, one going to platform 1 (with a ticket machine on the platform), one going to platforms 2 and 3 (through a ticket office) and one going to paltform 4 ( there is a ticket machine on the platform 4 side of the station, but it's hidden away under the overbridge ) , not a terrible setup during the daytime, but not so good for people leaving from platforms 2/3 after the ticket office counter closes.

I don't recall any signage telling people where to find ticket machines, either under normal circumstances, or when the obvious ticket machine for them to use is broken.

Oh and it seems northern fail have failed to bother telling national rail enquiries about their ticket machines so the maps can be updated (also noone seems to have told narional rail enquiries about the footbridge).

There's also the problem with TPE's revenue staff at Piccadilly. They man the gates for a lot of the Northern terminating services, and argue the toss when you board from a station with literally no ticket facilities I.e. some stations on the Glossop Line.
 

sheff1

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The problem is not stations with no ticketing facilies, but stations with unreliable and/or inadequate ticketing facilities.

You might hope that there is not a problem with stations which have no ticketing facilities, but there have been a number of threads where people have been PF'd or reported for possible prosecution when travelling from such stations.

Re unreliable facilities - I have been at unstaffed stations with just one TVM which has cycled in and out of service for the whole time I was waiting. People, apparently 'in the know', on here advised that such intermittent outages are highly unlikely to be recorded anywhere so even if RPIs try to check, which is certainly not a given, there will be nothing to suggest the TVM was out of service when a passenger wanted to purchase a ticket.

Inadequate ticketing facilities at many stations have been well documented.

In my view, TOCs should not be allowed to implement a PF scheme without first providing adequate and reliable* ticketing facilities. The powers that be obviously take a different view.

* Reliable includes a complete and accurate log of when ticket offices are closed when they are supposed to be open and any periods when a TVM is incapable of dispensing tickets.
 

Killingworth

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New notices have appeared at Dore & Totley recently, probably within the last week. Only difference seems to be the subtle addition of TPE's name at bottom right. It's on their website.

This evening there was a film crew for Channel 5 gathering material for an upcoming documentary series about TPE, similar to previous ones about LNER and GWR. They were filming returning commuters and a 3 person TPE revenue protection blockade. It seems they weren't catching any from Manchester. However, several Northern passengers from Sheffield were being allowed to purchase tickets tonight. Maybe not so lenient in the future. Sheffield must have about 12 TVMs and a booking office. Apparently it's a joint operation by both TOCs as they tackle significant revenue loss.
WP_20200122_15_52_24_Pro.jpg WP_20200122_16_20_05_Pro.jpg
 

gray1404

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So the Promise To Pay notices now apply on TPE as well as Northern (according to the Penalty Fares poster).
 

sheff1

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New notices have appeared at Dore & Totley recently, probably within the last week. Only difference seems to be the subtle addition of TPE's name at bottom right. It's on their website..
See they still can't be bothered to produce a notice which complies with The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018.

Sheffield must have about 12 TVMs and a booking office.
Not quite that many, but I get your point. TVMs are treated as mere decorations by many travellers from Sheffield.
 

talltim

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I think there are about 7 or 8 plus a quite a few TOD collection ones
 

Killingworth

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9 TVMs & 6 TOD only

Does that include the ones by the Supertram entrance? Whatever, quite enough for everyone to get a ticket. Regular commuting travellers can have season tickets. Mobile phone apps are fairly easy to use even for many older users.
 

nr758123

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This morning at Huddersfield there was an automated announcement saying that Penalty Fares would be in operation from the 2nd of February.

Some of the small North Trans Pennine route stations are Northern operated despite no longer having a Northern service calling there (e.g. Marsden), given their track record at maintaining TVMs what will be the incentive to keep them maintained when it doesn't effect their revenue?

The only ticket machine at Marsden (sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't) is on the otherwise unused platform 3. As far as I know, there is no signage from either of the operational platforms to tell passengers where the ticket machine is. Even if there were, it would hardly be reasonable to expect passengers to exit the station and walk along the road to platform 3 to buy a ticket, and then to walk back to either platform 1 or 2. Anyone not already familiar with the station layout would have no idea where the ticket machine was.

I can see passengers getting caught out by this through no fault of their own.

At the risk of going a bit off-topic, a wheelchair user would be able to buy a ticket from the machine at Marsden, but would be unable to catch a train in either direction.
 

Bletchleyite

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The only ticket machine at Marsden (sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't) is on the otherwise unused platform 3. As far as I know, there is no signage from either of the operational platforms to tell passengers where the ticket machine is. Even if there were, it would hardly be reasonable to expect passengers to exit the station and walk along the road to platform 3 to buy a ticket, and then to walk back to either platform 1 or 2. Anyone not already familiar with the station layout would have no idea where the ticket machine was.

I have never entirely understood why getting this sort of thing right is difficult. I could in an hour or so design appropriate signage for a station to make it very clear (a) where the TVM is and (b) that its use is mandatory.

But for some reason the railway seems to dislike provision of accurate signage informing correct behaviour. As I've said before, all the arguments that ensue when reservations aren't placed could be solved by clear signage as to what policy applies in such cases. Similarly, I like the French signage on the windows - "if there is a dispute as to whether the window is open or not, it is to be closed" - I'd like the same for blinds too (probably "open" for those though).
 

Killingworth

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The only ticket machine at Marsden (sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't) is on the otherwise unused platform 3. As far as I know, there is no signage from either of the operational platforms to tell passengers where the ticket machine is. Even if there were, it would hardly be reasonable to expect passengers to exit the station and walk along the road to platform 3 to buy a ticket, and then to walk back to either platform 1 or 2. Anyone not already familiar with the station layout would have no idea where the ticket machine was.

I can see passengers getting caught out by this through no fault of their own.

At the risk of going a bit off-topic, a wheelchair user would be able to buy a ticket from the machine at Marsden, but would be unable to catch a train in either direction.

Yes, we were caught out at Marsden a few months ago on a first time visit. We'd worked out the platform to go to, went over the bridge and spotted the TVM on Platform 1. Went back over and found it out of order. As walkers it wasn't a problem and we had plenty of time so paid on the train without difficulty. Less able walkers wouldn't need to be in a wheelchair to be daunted by the steps!
 
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