Happy Ticket - splitting tickets at Arlon

AnkleBoots · 5 Jan 2020

The Happy Ticket promotion (ending today, but no doubt similar to future ones) states "Pas combinable avec un billet international".

I used it from Brussels to Arlon. I also bought a Arlon to Luxembourg day return ticket.

Is the "non combinable" rule ever enforced?

RailUK Forums

paddington · 6 Jan 2020

I have done this sort of thing a few times, on regular tickets not promotional. What I can say is that whenever there has been a ticket check between Luxembourg and Arlon, there hasn't been another one until at least Namur, and in the other direction there is usually a check after leaving Brussels, then by the time you get to Arlon if there is another check they have either forgotten you or there is a new conductor....

It seems to be Belgian conductors all the way to Luxembourg, but if you are worried about enforcement you can get off and wait a few minutes for the stopping CFL train (will this become free in a few months??)

AnkleBoots · 6 Jan 2020

seat61 said:
If you want to stop off in Brussels for more than 24 hours even just in one direction, then you must buy a London-Brussels ticket at www.eurostar.com and a separate Brussels-Luxembourg ticket at www.b-europe.com for around €43 one-way (youth one-way around €31 if you're under 26, although no senior fares) or €48 for a one-month return.

I see why they are so against splitting, if the through ticket costs so much more!

dutchflyer · 10 Jan 2020

Same same applies to all combined/through fares from BE to local destinations via non-HS lines, and even more via the lines Maastricht, Roosendaal (both NL) and Aachen/Aix-la-Chapelle (DE) as local BE fares (heavily subsidised) apply to there and the much higher INTernational SCIC/TCV-fares via. Comparable to once in the UK with the old PTE's that charged much less for the same trips as BR-successors would.
Note that riding via Athus is much cheaper-and the LUX portion starts from there and thus is free from 1/3-but Arlon-Athus trains only run mo-fr.
Also note that this not-looking-at is not to be tried on the other line to LUX via Gouvy (Liege-Lux)-they will check that there.
But then even Arlon-LUX fares are quite inflated and higher as the sum as what both countries would charge for their part in Kms.

AnkleBoots · 10 Jan 2020

Thank you

dutchflyer said:
Also note that this not-looking-at is not to be tried on the other line to LUX via Gouvy (Liege-Lux)-they will check that there.

The consensus seems to be that a splitting ban would not be enforceable in the UK.
However it seems otherwise in Belgium.

Bletchleyite · 10 Jan 2020

AnkleBoots said:
Thank you

The consensus seems to be that a splitting ban would not be enforceable in the UK.
However Belgium seems to effectively ban it.

Ireland also bans it, it is written on the back of every ticket. I believe the UK has legal precedent preventing such a ban (from a legal case against BR) otherwise you'd bet some TOC or other would try it.

paddington · 11 Jan 2020

I have split tickets many times on the route via Gouvy. CFL conductors get off and on at Troisvierges, Belgians only start ticket checks after Gouvy. Have never had any ticket checks between Troisvierges and Gouvy.

tasky · 14 Jan 2020

I split my ticket on this route last year and showed both portions of my split ticket to an SNCB conductor southbound, and he didn't bat an eyelid

Obviously your mileage may vary

Oscar · 18 Jan 2020

tasky said:
I split my ticket on this route last year and showed both portions of my split ticket to an SNCB conductor southbound, and he didn't bat an eyelid

Obviously your mileage may vary

The question is whether the rule that certain tickets may not be combined with other for international journeys is even enforced. In the terms and conditions of use of a few - but not all - Belgian domestic ticket types, there is a clause expressly stating that the ticket cannot be combined with another to make an international journey. Yes, the guards accept splitting with many tickets because it is not disallowed. I have seen Belgian staff perform checks between the last station in Belgium and the first station in a neighbouring country, and since they also perform checks within Belgium, it is not inconceivable that someone may be caught out by a knowledgeable guard, but it seems unlikely and I have never witnessed it myself. Yes, from 1 March 2020 travel in 2nd class will become free within Luxembourg, but not between Luxembourg and the first station in neighbouring countries, where lower fares will instead apply (new Belgium-Luxembourg local cross-border day ticket prices).

AlbertBeale · 5 Feb 2020

Hi - do I gather that there's a general prohibition on split ticketing in Belgium? (I.e. not just re international journeys?)

If so, can someone give me the official reference stating this? Many thanks!

AlbertBeale · 5 Feb 2020

AlbertBeale said:
Hi - do I gather that there's a general prohibition on split ticketing in Belgium? (I.e. not just re international journeys?)

If so, can someone give me the official reference stating this? Many thanks!

Also - since someone has mentioned Ireland - does anyone have chapter-and-verse on any split-ticketing ban there? Thanks.

paddington · 5 Feb 2020

AlbertBeale said:
Also - since someone has mentioned Ireland - does anyone have chapter-and-verse on any split-ticketing ban there? Thanks.

https://www.irishrail.ie/faqs/Where-can-I-find-the-Conditions-of-Carriage
https://www.irishrail.ie/faqs/Where-can-I-find-the-Conditions-of-Carriage

Points 8, 10, 11 and 37

AlbertBeale · 7 Feb 2020

paddington said:
https://www.irishrail.ie/faqs/Where-can-I-find-the-Conditions-of-Carriage

Points 8, 10, 11 and 37

Hi - thanks for the Irish Railways info, which does seem to officially forbid saving money by getting separate tickets for parts of the journey.

A repeat request: can anyone supply definitive rules about (saving money by) split ticketing in Belgium - is it clear-cut like in Ireland? Thanks.

sprunt · 7 Feb 2020

AlbertBeale said:
Hi - thanks for the Irish Railways info, which does seem to officially forbid saving money by getting separate tickets for parts of the journey.

That seems - with the obvious rider that I'm not an expert in Irish law - silly at best, unenforceable at worst. What if I step off the train and then back on again at my splitting point? I'm then making two journeys, each of which I hold a ticket for.

AlbertBeale · 7 Feb 2020

sprunt said:
That seems - with the obvious rider that I'm not an expert in Irish law - silly at best, unenforceable at worst. What if I step off the train and then back on again at my splitting point? I'm then making two journeys, each of which I hold a ticket for.

Yes - I agree that conceptually it's all very silly (and perhaps difficult to enforce - maybe people using the railways there can tell us?); however, it is written clearly into the Irish Railways Conditions of Carriage (see Section 11), silly or not.

And I'm trying to find something definitive about the alleged equivalent in Belgium.

sprunt · 7 Feb 2020

AlbertBeale said:
And I'm trying to find something definitive about the alleged equivalent in Belgium.

Yes - apologies for potentially dragging it off topic!

tasky · 7 Feb 2020

I'm reading the SNCB conditions of carriage to try and find a definite answer to the split ticketing thing

If you want to help it'll be here somewhere

https://www.belgiantrain.be/en/support/terms-and-conditions-for-transport

I haven't found anything yet but I thought this was a nice detail on the Weekend Ticket: "Si votre gare* de départ et/ou de destination fait partie d’une Zone*, vous pouvez circuler librement toute la journée à l’intérieur de la ou des Zone(s)*, sans en sortir."

Roughly... "if your start of end destination forms part of a zone (e.g. Zone Brussels, etc), you can freely circulation all day inside the zone, without leaving it". Quite useful, essentially giving you a free all-day S-Bahn ticket within Brussels

This is also VERY useful for people wanting to use the coast tram: "Si la gare de destination de votre billet aller-retour est une gare du littoral, vous pouvez effectuer le trajet retour de n’importe quelle gare du littoral. Ces gares sont : De Panne, Koksijde, Oostende, Blankenberge, Veurne, Heist, Duinbergen, Knokke, Zeebrugge- Strand/Dorp."

Basically, if you're getting a train to the coast on a return ticket, your return ticket is valid back from any station on the coast! Presumably to encourage people to use the coast tram.

Hopefully I'll find what I'm looking for now re: split tickets

tasky · 7 Feb 2020

I think the above posters saying there was a prohibition on split ticketing in Belgium etc were wrong, at least for this common ticket type, @AlbertBeale

These are the conditions on the weekend ticket (a half price return)
https://cdn.belgiantrain.be/-/media...9139.51797492.1581089887-237133993.1578599664

QUE PERMET MON BILLET ?
• PUIS-JE FAIRE UNE HALTE DURANT MON VOYAGE ? Oui. Vous pouvez interrompre* votre voyage dans n’importe quel(le) gare* ou point d’arrêt* situé(e) sur l’itinéraire le plus court en kilomètres, et ce, dans le sens de votre destination. Dans ce cas, votre voyage « aller » sera totalement terminé avant l’interruption de nuit* du jour où vous avez commencé votre voyage. Il en sera de même pour votre voyage « retour ».

• PUIS-JE CHANGER DE DESTINATION LORS DU VOYAGE ? Oui. Le changement est autorisé sur votre itinéraire le plus court en kilomètres moyennant l’achat d’un nouveau titre de transport, couvrant la distance entre n’importe quel(le) gare* ou point d’arrêt* sur cet itinéraire et votre nouvelle destination. Si vous l’achetez à bord du train, il est majoré du « Supplément Tarif à Bord »*.

• PUIS-JE UTILISER 2 TITRES DE TRANSPORT CONSÉCUTIFS ? Oui. Vous pouvez utiliser un autre titre de transport avant ou après votre billet. Si un autre titre de transport est utilisé avant ou après un 1er titre de transport, ceux-ci sont considérés comme un seul titre de transport et les facilités de l’itinéraire alternatif* sont d'application. Vous présentez toujours vos deux titres de transport pour le contrôle dans le train.

In English, this means:

WHAT DOES MY TICKET ALLOW?
• CAN I STOP DURING MY TRIP?
Yes. You can interrupt * your journey at any station * or stop point * located on the shortest route in kilometers, in the direction of your destination. In this case, your trip "Outbound" will be complete before the night time interruption * of the day you started your trip. It will be the same for your return journey.

• CAN I CHANGE DESTINATIONS DURING THE TRIP?
Yes. Change is allowed on your shortest route in kilometers with the purchase of a new ticket, covering the distance between any station * or stop point * on this route and your new destination. If you buy it aboard the train, it is increased by the "Tariff Supplement on board "*.

• CAN I USE 2 CONSECUTIVE TRANSPORTATION TICKETS?
Yes. You can use another transport ticket before or after your ticket. If another ticket is used before or after a 1st ticket, these are considered as a single ticket and the facilities of the alternative route * apply. You present always your two tickets for control on the train.

So split ticketing and breaking your journey are explicitly permitted, at least on the weekend ticket.

UPDATE: I've just checked and it is the same on the standard ticket

Also, I'm very impressed by how simple and legible SNCB's conditions of carriage are! Well done Belgium.

MarcVD · 7 Feb 2020

There are some restrictions, however. There are SNCB passes that allow free access to any station on the network, but not to the border points. So not usable for international traffic. You can, however, buy a ticket to the border to complement your pass, but the split must happen at a place where the train you're in really stops. So, for example, suppose you're in Brussels and want to go to Lille, you can split tickets in Tournai, but not in Froyennes which is closer to the border so less expensive, but your train to Lille does not stop there.

ricohallo · 7 Feb 2020

tasky said:
I haven't found anything yet but I thought this was a nice detail on the Weekend Ticket: "Si votre gare* de départ et/ou de destination fait partie d’une Zone*, vous pouvez circuler librement toute la journée à l’intérieur de la ou des Zone(s)*, sans en sortir."

Roughly... "if your start of end destination forms part of a zone (e.g. Zone Brussels, etc), you can freely circulation all day inside the zone, without leaving it". Quite useful, essentially giving you a free all-day S-Bahn ticket within Brussels

It's also worth noting that this is also the case with Eurostar tickets to Brussels, see https://help.eurostar.com/faq/uk-en...e-it-to-travel-to-another-station-in-the-city
It even lists every station included in the zone Brussels!
Not sure if it can effectively be used as a day ticket though.

It is also possible to buy a standard ticket from one station to another station within a zone, the ticket machine will print a ticket from Zone Brussels to Zone Brussels in this case (I tested this in Zone Antwerp) and you should be able to use it as a cheap day ticket.

IIRC also possible in 1st class!

tasky · 8 Feb 2020

MarcVD said:
There are some restrictions, however. There are SNCB passes that allow free access to any station on the network, but not to the border points. So not usable for international traffic. You can, however, buy a ticket to the border to complement your pass, but the split must happen at a place where the train you're in really stops. So, for example, suppose you're in Brussels and want to go to Lille, you can split tickets in Tournai, but not in Froyennes which is closer to the border so less expensive, but your train to Lille does not stop there.

Yes, there's going to be an interesting artefact when Luxembourg makes its trains free - you can have an all-lines pass in Belgium, and of course the trains will be free in Luxembourg, but to cross the border you will need to pay a small supplement, I believe.

AlbertBeale · 8 Feb 2020

tasky said:
Yes, there's going to be an interesting artefact when Luxembourg makes its trains free - you can have an all-lines pass in Belgium, and of course the trains will be free in Luxembourg, but to cross the border you will need to pay a small supplement, I believe.

Thanks to everyone for the Belgium info. So it seems that, in Belgium (unlike in Ireland) if tickets A-B + B-C add up to less, for some reason, than a ticket A-C, that's fine (providing the train stops at B). Though I think this all started with someone saying this didn't work with Brussels-Luxembourg trains if you had a ticket split at Arlon?? So I assume that info was not true...

As to the situation when Luxembourg abolishes pubic transport fares next month - I assume that any ticket valid in Belgium to the last stop before the border would need to be supplemented with a ticket from there to the first stop in Luxembourg? (I might visit Luxembourg in the coming months to celebrate the free transport.)

Happy Ticket - splitting tickets at Arlon

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