Flybe problems - did they take rail improvements into account?

jfollows · 14 Jan 2020

Flybe has collected £13 for each flight when the ticket was paid for, as noted above, but the money is only due to be paid to the government at the time of the flight, so if APD is reduced to £10 (say) then Flybe gets to hang on to £3 of the money. The passenger can claim this back but Flybe will charge a fee of £25 if they try to do so, so it's not going to happen.
Then in the longer run, once the new APD rates are set, the amount Flybe will extract from its customers will reduce accordingly and, in theory, make it more competitive or something.

RailUK Forums

InOban · 14 Jan 2020

daikilo said:
It is perhaps relevant to note that whereas various "non-national" airlines fly "domestic" in other European countries (eg EasyJet in France), only Ryanair occasionally flies domestic in the UK. Note that France has their own equivalent to the APD.

Surely you meant to write Ryanair only occasionally flies domestic? Indeed if they fly from Belfast, that's now their only UK domestic route. easyJet on the other hand fly up to four times a day between Glasgow and Edinburgh and STN, LTN, and Gatwick, as well as BRS and BFS, and in a couple of months, BHX. easyJet also fly from INV and ABZ.

221129 · 14 Jan 2020

InOban said:
Surely you meant to write Ryanair only occasionally flies domestic? Indeed if they fly from Belfast, that's now their only UK domestic route. easyJet on the other hand fly up to four times a day between Glasgow and Edinburgh and STN, LTN, and Gatwick, as well as BRS and BFS, and in a couple of months, BHX. easyJet also fly from INV and ABZ.

However Easyjet are a UK based company.

Bletchleyite · 14 Jan 2020

sikejsudjek said:
some of the routes (Newquay springs to mind) are poorly served by road and rail. There is likely to be an economic impact of letting them go bust

Not a significant one. It's two small turboprops a day, isn't it? Fewer than 200 people. That just isn't enough to pose a significant impact on anything other than a rural hamlet.

Bletchleyite · 14 Jan 2020

221129 said:
However Easyjet are a UK based company.

For now. They are moving towards becoming an EU company due to Brexit.

221129 · 14 Jan 2020

Bletchleyite said:
It's two small turboprops a day, isn't it?

4x Dash 8s into and out of NQY daily during the winter.

Bletchleyite · 14 Jan 2020

221129 said:
4x Dash 8s into and out of NQY daily during the winter.

312 people. So about the same as one Class 80x.

The railway has a far, far greater impact.

edwin_m · 14 Jan 2020

Bletchleyite said:
For now. They are moving towards becoming an EU company due to Brexit.

They have re-registered many of their planes in Austria, where they are operated by a subsidiary which I presume now runs all flights between states remaining in the EU. According to Wikipedia the Europe subsidiary operates 138 aircraft and 30 are operated by another subsidiary in Switzerland, with the remaining 166 remaining with the UK company. So that's 45% of the company no longer in the UK, directly resulting from UK government policy. They have a foot in both camps now and are presumably waiting and seeing what comes out of the Brexit agreement.

LNW-GW Joint · 14 Jan 2020

221129 said:
However Easyjet are a UK based company.

Bletchleyite said:
For now. They are moving towards becoming an EU company due to Brexit.

Both easyJet and Ryanair have dual licences so they will be able to fly domestically in both the EU and UK.
They might have to use specific planes registered in the right regulatory area (EZ has an Austrian licence).
They can both fly UK-Europe with no problems.

HowardGWR · 14 Jan 2020

kristiang85 said:
As far as I can tell, domestic flights by Ryanair, BA and Sleazyjet are still going strong?

Just out of interest why do you apply the insult only to Easyjet. My experience as a passenger is quite the reverse of your opinion.

One can only hope that this outfit does not get any more cash from UK governments but they used to have a lot of friends in the Tory party and one of their directors was a Devon Tory councillor.

Bletchleyite · 14 Jan 2020

HowardGWR said:
Just out of interest why do you apply the insult only to Easyjet. My experience as a passenger is quite the reverse of your opinion.

One can only hope that this outfit does not get any more cash from UK governments but they used to have a lot of friends in the Tory party and one of their directors was a Devon Tory councillor.

It's just a figure of speech, though "Flymaybe" is much more deserved. There's also "Eireflop" should you wish to insult the good Mr O'Leary.

mirodo · 14 Jan 2020

Government reaches agreement to save Flybe
http://news.sky.com/story/government-reaches-agreement-to-save-flybe-11908700

Andrea Leadsome tweets:

Delighted that we have reached agreement with Flybe’s shareholders to keep the company operating, ensuring that U.K. regions remain connected. This will be welcome news for Flybe’s staff, customers and creditors and we will continue the hard work to ensure a sustainable future.

Greybeard33 · 14 Jan 2020

Bletchleyite said:
312 people. So about the same as one Class 80x.

The railway has a far, far greater impact.

Although the newly released statistics for 2018-19 give Newquay station entries and exits as 103000, or an average of only 145 people per day each way. Less than half the capacity of the Flybe flights to Newquay airport!

Bletchleyite · 14 Jan 2020

Greybeard33 said:
Although the newly released statistics for 2018-19 give Newquay station entries and exits as 103000, or an average of only 145 people per day each way. Less than half the capacity of the Flybe flights to Newquay airport!

I suspect there is probably a significant difference in loadings from summer to winter (same with the flights). And people won't just use the flights to go to Newquay - fly there, get a hire car and drive to your destination is not at all unusual, so there's a whole range of stations to add to it.

Tomos y Tanc · 14 Jan 2020

The story of domestic flights within GB (as distinct from GB>NI) seems to be one on cycles of failure. Many of the routes are valuable, both socialy and economicaly yet without cross subisidy from more lucrative ventures airlines struggle as large competitors quickly enter any successful new markets.

Off the top of my head we've seen Cambrian, NE airlines, DanAir, Manx and now FlyBe either fail or get taken over by larger companies who later loose interest

paul1609 · 14 Jan 2020

Tomos y Tanc said:
The story of domestic flights within GB (as distinct from GB>NI) seems to be one on cycles of failure. Many of the routes are valuable, both socialy and economicaly yet without cross subisidy from more lucrative ventures airlines struggle as large competitors quickly enter any successful new markets.

Off the top of my head we've seen Cambrian, NE airlines, DanAir, Manx and now FlyBe either fail or get taken over by larger companies who later loose interest

Loganair are Britains oldest established airline I believe, I put their success down to the complimentary Caramel Wafers.

Howardh · 14 Jan 2020

route101 said:
There is not even flights from Glasgow to Manchester now. What happens is flybe give it up then usually Loganair take over but not this time. Despite the TPE issues , trains are cheaper and much more frequent than the plane.
.

When I was diverted to Glasgow due to the Cook failure, I don't think there were any flights back to Manchester but as I got off the plane I booked a single Glasgow - Manchester first class with railcard for just over £40 midweek; there's no way an airline can beat that! Airlines have to put up with Air Pax Duty which the railways don't of course.

Howardh · 14 Jan 2020

Tomos y Tanc said:
The story of domestic flights within GB (as distinct from GB>NI) seems to be one on cycles of failure. Many of the routes are valuable, both socialy and economicaly yet without cross subisidy from more lucrative ventures airlines struggle as large competitors quickly enter any successful new markets.

Off the top of my head we've seen Cambrian, NE airlines, DanAir, Manx and now FlyBe either fail or get taken over by larger companies who later loose interest

Are the flights to the Scots islands (ie Loganair) subsidised (and quite heavily at that) by the Scots government? Not saying they shouldn't be as they are a lifeline - literally in some cases?

Struner · 14 Jan 2020

But there’s talk of reducing APD?
Instead of increasing it to invest the revenue in improving the railways?

squizzler · 14 Jan 2020

It is sad that of the low cost carriers it is Flybe who are suffering. Flybe beat Easyjet and Ryanair hands down where it counts: the planes are 2+2 seating so there are no middle seats, Here, and the seats and their arrangement trump all else! But if their window alignment was better they would certainly still be in the black. Their fleet with its diversity of Embraer E jet, ATR 72 and Bombardier Q400 are undoubtedly more appealing to real propellor-heads than the dreary homogenous 737s and A319/320s of their competitors.

That said, I made some trips to Jersey in 2018 and the load factors were so poor they would make a rural bus operator (let alone a train firm) blush. Sadly this is not acceptable in the current climate emergency. I think the money made available by government and backers to keep it running would have been better spent re-training the staff into new jobs - at least the latter would not feel like they could be in this situation again in another year or so.

Struner · 14 Jan 2020

Howardh said:
Are the flights to the Scots islands (ie Loganair) subsidised (and quite heavily at that) by the Scots government? Not saying they shouldn't be as they are a lifeline - literally in some cases?

Yes they are & quite rightly so.

Islineclear3_1 · 14 Jan 2020

Looks like they're being bailed out again

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51113895

The government has agreed a rescue plan for troubled regional airline Flybe.

Ministers agreed to work with Flybe to figure out a repayment plan for a significant tax debt that is thought to top £100m.

Bald Rick · 14 Jan 2020

Bletchleyite said:
For now. They are moving towards becoming an EU company due to Brexit.

edwin_m said:
They have re-registered many of their planes in Austria, where they are operated by a subsidiary which I presume now runs all flights between states remaining in the EU. According to Wikipedia the Europe subsidiary operates 138 aircraft and 30 are operated by another subsidiary in Switzerland, with the remaining 166 remaining with the UK company. So that's 45% of the company no longer in the UK, directly resulting from UK government policy. They have a foot in both camps now and are presumably waiting and seeing what comes out of the Brexit agreement.

Easyjet plc is a British company and remains so. As @edwin_m says, it also has three airlines: a U.K. registered airline, one registered in Austria, and another in Switzerland. The Swiss one is only 49% owned by Easyjet plc, (and has never been more), and has been around for more than 2 decades. I flew with them in 1999. Easyjet Europe is 100% owned by Easyjet plc, and just about all Easyjet employees based ‘abroad’ are employed by this subsidiary (except those in Switzerland, obviously). But the companies are very much British owned.

Djgr · 14 Jan 2020

That said, I made some trips to Jersey in 2018 and the load factors were so poor they would make a rural bus operator (let alone a train firm) blush. Sadly this is not acceptable in the current climate emergency

Where current=ongoing and worsening .....

oldman · 14 Jan 2020

Howardh said:
Are the flights to the Scots islands (ie Loganair) subsidised (and quite heavily at that) by the Scots government? Not saying they shouldn't be as they are a lifeline - literally in some cases?

Most routes from the cities to the islands are not subsidised. The airports (HIAL) are heavily subsidised, there are government funded discounts for some passengers, and the NHS pays for patient flights.

It's not a normal commercial market!

Bald Rick · 14 Jan 2020

hwl said:
Simple question as regards Flybe problems and potential futures rescues/bailouts (yet again...)
Flybe were rescued /bailed out last year with huge investment and a big turnaround plan that apparently isn't working.

Do forum users think that Flybe/the 3 invertors took rail improvements into account (including ones soon to be delivered that are in the pipeline) when assessing their turnaround plan and as part of the cause of some problems?

E.g GWR IET introduction (capacity boost) and and December 2019 Timetable change. (some of Flybe's Exeter + Newquay routes) - the pendulum swinging the other way from the Dawlish seawall line closure...

E.g. Manchester - Scotland improvements (Bolton corridor electrification and 350s/397s) affecting
Flybe's Manchester - Edinburgh route

E.g. ECML capacity and frequency improvements and new trains (Flybe's East Midlands Airport - Scotland routes

E.g. Numerous Scottish rail improvements (electrification, new longer trains) so the overall competitiveness of rail has got better.

I do think there’s something in this as a contributory factor. But I think the root cause is that many of the markets they operate in are simply too small to generate the number of people prepared to pay the fares that necessary to make the operation profitable. The fares will be set at a level that’s maximises revenue, but because of the price / speed / convenience balance of the competition (train, driving) they can’t set them high enough. Exeter to Newcastle for example, less than a 500 a week each way. Leeds - Southampton less than half that.

Bosch91 · 14 Jan 2020

Possibly on some routes, I regularly travel from Northumberland to poole using Flybe. Bearing in mind air fares are often fairly close in terms of price when booking for business IE very short notice, I wouldn’t consider rail over flying. It’s a cause of 7hrs plus vs an hour flight.

Struner · 14 Jan 2020

oldman said:
Most routes from the cities to the islands are not subsidised. The airports (HIAL) are heavily subsidised, there are government funded discounts for some passengers, and the NHS pays for patient flights.
It's not a normal commercial market!

Indeed!

Kingham West · 14 Jan 2020

Personally I found my last fly Be trip fine , but is not the real issue , underinvestment in cross county, with new trains and more carriages, within the UK , they could wipe out Domestic Air travel.

As it is I would rather fly than stand in a Voyager.

Perhaps the Treasury should fund 50 x6 car 24m Bimodes, ( With Buffets ) rather than prop up a failed airline.
Far better use of my tax pounds .

Mogster · 14 Jan 2020

Bletchleyite said:
It's just a figure of speech, though "Flymaybe" is much more deserved. There's also "Eireflop" should you wish to insult the good Mr O'Leary.

Aer Fungus?

Flybe problems - did they take rail improvements into account?

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