Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?

43096 said:

If you think they are still fit for purpose now then you are wrong. Very wrong.

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I think they are fit for purpose in the sence of being coupled to complient units to provide additional capacity which the Wigan to Southport line seems to need going by the posts as since the pacers have left there, services has been short formed.

They are also fit for purpose on less busy lines and they were great for the line between Morecambe and Lancaster as they are the right capacity and its such a short distance the toilet would not needed to be used

A ex northern spirit unit has more than an acceptable interior and looks more up to date than an interior with bus seats. Always said if all units in the North were up to standard as those 142s the backlash against these trains would be much less. All that said, I do think now is the right time to retire them, they served their time well and its upto the operator to have enough replacements in place to replace them.

yorksrob said:

The lunatics have truly taken over the asylum.

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Totally agree, it sounds like something from a Carry On film!

ed1971 said:

Totally agree, it sounds like something from a Carry On film!

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Sadly not as entertaining !

IamTrainsYT said:

A wheelchair ramp can still fit on the step, old people have said they find it easier boarding pacers as they are 2 steps up rather than one large step. I don’t understand why new trains aren’t being built to the exact height of the palatform? Merseyrail are doing it with there 777s and it would make wheelchair access so easy

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Probably because different rolling stock are using the same platforms. On Merseyrail they only have 507s and 508s, to be replaced by 777s.

43096 said:

Just because they are all we have doesn’t make them fit for purpose. They should have been replaced long ago with sufficient replacement vehicles. To suggest otherwise is just an enthusiast view of the world where old = good.

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The 150s are not fit for their purpose either with noisy engines claustrophobic interiors and large gaps at some stations. The 150/1 cascades are slightly older than the later Pacers. The NIR didn't keep their similar constructed Class 450 DEMUs this long, they were scrapped a few years ago.

A contributor on the Class 195 introduction thread felt that it was short sighted to order new DMMUs when we don't yet know about future electrification schemes and alternative fuel sources within the next 20 years. He felt that DEMUs would have been a better option as they could be converted to EMUs later. With this in mind, it may have been prudent to have retained some of the Pacers and rebodied them with a body that would have met PRM requirements for a further 15 - 20 years service.

61653 HTAFC said:

What's the "high-backed First North Western seating" they're on about?

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They have got mixed up with the ATN and the ATW class 142s which have higher backed seats.

Chris217 said:

They are indeed.

The anti Pacer brigade
Seem to think they have more common sense than the rest of us who just want a train home!
Enjoy your short forms and cancellations in the name of sheer lunacy!

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I think i'll stick with the car from now on. Not running the gauntlet of 2 car trains in the peaks anymore.

Chris217 said:

The problem we have is....
Old is good as it works.whereas new is
p1$spoor as it doesnt.
Let's get rid of the old stuff even though all the new stuff still doesnt work properly.
Always better off better the devil you know

I am not anti new or anything.
Just seems there is zero common sense
on todays railways.
Like I have already said,our demands will be our downfall.
Pacers are the scapegoat tbh.
If it works,leave it be.

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The common sense thing would to be get rid of Pacers and have sufficient replacement vehicles. Compare them with a modern bus, or a car and they are so far short of being even barely adequate.

As for not being fit for the 21st Century.
I will ask you this....
If Pacers were only 5 years old with all the mod cons,will people STILL moan about them because they are a pacer.
And the answer to that is yes!

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What on earth are you on about.

If Pacers were five years old and all mod cons like aircon, bogies etc. (so like a 170) then people wouldn't be complaining.

Paul_10 said:

I think they are fit for purpose in the sence of being coupled to complient units to provide additional capacity which the Wigan to Southport line seems to need going by the posts as since the pacers have left there, services has been short formed.

They are also fit for purpose on less busy lines and they were great for the line between Morecambe and Lancaster as they are the right capacity and its such a short distance the toilet would not needed to be used

A ex northern spirit unit has more than an acceptable interior and looks more up to date than an interior with bus seats. Always said if all units in the North were up to standard as those 142s the backlash against these trains would be much less. All that said, I do think now is the right time to retire them, they served their time well and its upto the operator to have enough replacements in place to replace them.

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Compare them with the competition and they are just so antiquated - the moment they go is not a moment too soon.

There need to be some questions asked of Northern as to what they have done with all their extra stock. Just looking at the diesel fleet they have either taken or are taking:
20 x 150 = 40 cars
5 x 156 = 10 cars
8 x 158 = 16 cars
16 x 170 = 48 cars
25 x 195/0 = 50 cars
33 x 195/1 = 99 cars
Total = 263 cars

Pacers going
79 x 142 = 158 cars
13 x 144 (2) = 26 cars
10 x 144 (3) = 30 cars
Total = 214 cars

So even before taking into account the increased electric fleet with the 331s there's an increase of 49 diesel vehicles in this franchise. I know there's around 60 195 cars still to enter service, but there's still 104 Pacer vehicles in traffic. Yes, there is some PRM work cover - but it does beg the question of what Northern are doing with their fleet.

Updated to show the recent three units scrapped.

Red - withdrawn.
Orange - scrapped / sent to be scrapped
Yellow - converted to other use (does not include food tins or razor blades).
Green - modified for Passengers of Reduced Mobility.
Blue - in storage.
Purple - preserved.
Pink - can operate provided that they are coupled to a PRM compliant unit.


Class 142
001 - Unit preserved. Due to move to the National Railway Museum in York.
002
003 - was in storage at Barrow, moved to Heaton TMD and now at Gascoigne Wood.
004 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
005 - First to be withdrawn, now scrapped (updated as of 7th December 2019)
006
007 - was in storage at Barrow, moved to Heaton TMD and now at Gascoigne Wood.
008 - Scrapped (Collided with a class 87 at Winsford in 1999).
009 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood
010
011 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
012 - at Landore TMD? being stripped of spare parts.
013 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
014 - was in warm storage at Heaton TMD, now at Gascoigne Wood.
015 - Scrapped, Newport Docks.
016 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
017 - in storage at Worksop
018 - in warm store at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
019 - in storage at Worksop
020 - in storage at Worksop
021 - Scrapped, Newport Docks
022 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
023 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
024 - was at Allerton, now at Newton Heath TMD.
025 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
026 - Scrapped, Newport Docks
027 - in storage at Worksop
028 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood
029 - Unit preserved at Chasewater Railway
030 - Unit preserved at Chasewater Railway
031 - Scrapped, Newport Docks
032 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood.
033 - Converted to a Police Training Unit by South Wales Police at Bridgend rugby pitch.
034 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood
035 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
036 - Unit to be preserved at East Kent Railway, still in service at Northern - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
037 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
038 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood
039 - Scrapped, Newport Docks
040 - was in storage at Barrow, moved to Heaton TMD and now at Gascoigne Wood.
041 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
042 - Scrapped, Newport Docks.
043 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
044 - Scrapped, second class 142 unit to be dismantled at CF Booths (the first being 005).
045 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
046 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood.
047 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
048 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
049 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood (soon moving to Newport Docks or Landore)
050 - Scrapped, Newport Docks
051 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
052 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
053 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
054 - was in warm storage at Longsight TMD, now at Newton Heath TMD.
055 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
056 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood.
057 - Scrapped, Newport Docks
058 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
059 - Scrapped (Collided with buffer stops at Liverpool Lime Street in 1991.)
060 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood.
061 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
062 - was in warm storage at Longsight TMD, now at Newton Heath TMD.
063 - was in warm storage at Heaton TMD, now at Gascoigne Wood.
064 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury
065 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
066 - Scrapped, Newport Docks.
067 - in storage at Gascoigne Wood. If used again, it must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
068 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
069
070 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
071 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
072
073 - ?
074
075
076
077
078 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
079 - at Landore TMD? being stripped of spare parts.
080
081
082
083
084 - in storage at Worksop
085
086 - at Canton, stripped of spare parts.
087 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
088 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury.
089 - was in warm storage at Newton Heath TMD, moved to Heaton TMD and now at Gascoigne Wood.
090 - must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
091 - in storage at Worksop
092 - Scrapped, Newport Docks.
093 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury.
094 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
095 - in warm storage at Heaton TMD, must be used with PRM Compliant unit.
096 - Scrapped, EMR Kingsbury. The last of the class lost for good.

Class 143
601
602
603 - set to be preserved at the Swindon and Cricklade Railway
604
605
606
607
608
609
610
611
612
613 - Scrapped (Unit caught fire near Nailsea & Backwell in 2004).
614
615 - Scrapped (Unit caught fire in 2005).
616
617
618
619
620
621
622
623
624
625

Class 144 - All units stabled at Neville Hill TMD, can run on specified routes and can run solo.
001 - "Penistone Line Partnership"
002
003 - set to be preserved at the Great Central Railway at Ruddington.
004
005
006
007
008
009
010
011
012 - 144 Evolution has full PRM modifications. (Possibly the last ever Pacer in service?)
013
014
015
016
017
018
019
020
021
022
023


This list is not operator specific, but it does cover all Pacers that are in the firing line.

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#leylandslastlap

Something to add, I have started logging my haulage and not one train that I rode last week was on time (my train is the 16:08 And is a 2 car so can now not be a pacer) whereas I have had pacers arrive 3 minutes early before!

Travelled on 142078 not long ago and have to say it felt luxury compared to the 802s I'm used to. Seats that were comfy and not ridiculously bolt upright. Warm and comfortable, if slightly bouncy, but on balance the pacers without the bus seating will be missed, , by me at least. ....

irish_rail said:

... Seats that were comfy and not ridiculously bolt upright. Warm and comfortable, if slightly bouncy, but on balance the pacers without the bus seating will be missed, , by me at least. ....

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These days those would be fair comparisons against 185s we get over this way too! Indeed if you get a seat at all!
I'm with you, the Pacers will be missed, and indeed, on my home patch are already.

Path to Newport created last night for Thursday, morning another load of 142s for scrap
https://live.rail-record.co.uk/train/?c=K06281&d=16/01/2020

And also one Friday
https://live.rail-record.co.uk/train?c=K00009&d=17/01/2020

A Northern internal communication has mentioned that there will be a "Pacer farewell tour later this year". No further info than that at present.

43096 said:

Compare them with the competition and they are just so antiquated - the moment they go is not a moment too soon.

There need to be some questions asked of Northern as to what they have done with all their extra stock. Just looking at the diesel fleet they have either taken or are taking:
20 x 150 = 40 cars
5 x 156 = 10 cars
8 x 158 = 16 cars
16 x 170 = 48 cars
25 x 195/0 = 50 cars
33 x 195/1 = 99 cars
Total = 263 cars

Pacers going
79 x 142 = 158 cars
13 x 144 (2) = 26 cars
10 x 144 (3) = 30 cars
Total = 214 cars

So even before taking into account the increased electric fleet with the 331s there's an increase of 49 diesel vehicles in this franchise. I know there's around 60 195 cars still to enter service, but there's still 104 Pacer vehicles in traffic. Yes, there is some PRM work cover - but it does beg the question of what Northern are doing with their fleet.

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Interesting, 263 coaches in and only 214 pacer cars plus the 153s out and Nothern always seem short of units does beg the question about maintenance with refurbishment really meaning interior refresh.
To be fair though a lot of the fleet is old and they are running some extra services, and lengthening some trains.
Anyone any spare dmus?
K
P.s. I have started a thread under timetables and allocations re this topic.
"Northern post pacer and PRM allocations"

trainmania100 said:

Path to Newport created last night for Thursday, morning another load of 142s for scrap
https://live.rail-record.co.uk/train/?c=K06281&d=16/01/2020

And also one Friday
https://live.rail-record.co.uk/train?c=K00009&d=17/01/2020

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Anybody know which units will be on these?

Llama said:

A Northern internal communication has mentioned that there will be a "Pacer farewell tour later this year". No further info than that at present.

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That's great! I wonder when it will be. Probably June after the final Pacers are withdrawn?

The_Train said:

Anybody know which units will be on these?

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Too early to tell, may hear hear something the evening before or before the train leaves

IamTrainsYT said:

Too early to tell, may hear hear something the evening before or before the train leaves

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Ok mate, thanks

some photos have been put on instagram of the units at newport docks, a class 315 appearing to be on its side and 142092 with "1985-2019" written in dirt on the front

Since the pacers have been taken out every Northern train i've got is 2 cars rather than the usual 4. I'd rather have a seat on a 4 car pacer than be claustrophic and standing on a packed out 2 car.

All this nostalgia about Pacers but I never see any about the 313, 314, 315 etc going for scrap which have also served the railway well.
Off topic but I always thought the lightweight aluminium dual voltage 313 was a far better prospect fo become a bi mode than the 319s or even ex LU stock.
K

superkev said:

All this nostalgia about Pacers but I never see any about the 313, 314, 315 etc going for scrap which have also served the railway well.
Off topic but I always thought the lightweight aluminium dual voltage 313 was a far better prospect fo become a bi mode than the 319s or even ex LU stock.
K

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The problem with the 313s and their like is the location of the traction equipment under both driving cars, which means there isn't space for an engine under there. With the 319s having one motor car, the driving trailers have relatively little underframe equipment.

I wonder why neither northern spirit/ATN and North western/FNW didn't propose scrapping these years ago

43096 said:

The problem with the 313s and their like is the location of the traction equipment under both driving cars, which means there isn't space for an engine under there. With the 319s having one motor car, the driving trailers have relatively little underframe equipment.

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Not sure that's strictly true as the centre Pantograph trailer housed the heavy bits particularly the transformer.

superkev said:

All this nostalgia about Pacers but I never see any about the 313, 314, 315 etc going for scrap which have also served the railway well.
K

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Possibly because they were highly mundane commuter trains, although saying that I think they are missed in their way. The last passenger service GN 313 run wasn’t well turned out though, although it wasn’t “last run for class” as there are still the Southern 313s.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the Merseyrail 507/508s. These deserve a send-off having served the area well.

I think EMU classes dont have the same fan base as DMU classes.
But I suppose that depends on where you live.
Saying that,when I was a lot younger,not many people admitted liking DMU's the same way as locomotives.
Even back then they were referred to as bog units or coaches with bus engines lol.

EMU's have a character of their own,and if you lived in a non electrified area of the network,going some place to spot them had some enthusiasts intrigued.
I quite like most EMU's tbh but I do like the PEP's especially.
On DMU's though I preferred the old first gen sets especially the Swindons.
Pacers were new to me in 1989 when I moved to Liverpool and I have always thought they have that bit of character which seemed to outweigh most modern class DMU's.
I am glad I have taken many photos of them now as well.
I will miss both Pacers and the PEP's when they go. Both have served well,and that cannot be argued!
As I am in to most things 1980s,here goes another part of my favourite era consigned to history!
Times do,and must change though and move on evolving for the better.
And as sad as we lose what we love,we also must look forward to what's on offer.
Whether it's for better or worse,time will tell.

142 040 / 067 / 063 on their way to Newport running 36 late at Wakefield Kirkgate.

387star said:

I wonder why neither northern spirit/ATN and North western/FNW didn't propose scrapping these years ago

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Because they were totally acceptable units back then, apparantly they aren’t now